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Direct quote from The Bacta War bu Michael Stackpole, page 237-238 in paperback.

"The trooper gestured with his blaster carbine, but Iella still wasn't able to understand him. She tried, but an odd whirring soud eclipsed his words. An angular shadow dropped down behind him. Iella heard a horrid snapping and crunching as the trooper began to telescope down toward the ground. He twisted around, his legs going limp, allowing Iella to see the ragged parallel wounds slashed down through the back of his armor.

Standing behind him, with claws dripping blood, a black Vratix warrior drew his arms in toward his thorax. His head bobbed once, then his powerful hind legs straightened, propelling him up and out of her sight. If not for the ravaged corpse of the soldier at her feet, she would have had no proof of his intervention.

Her mouth hung open as she looked at the trooper's body. Those claws sliced through that armor with the ease of a wampa filleting a tauntaun. No way all the bacta on this world could close those wounds."

What we have here is a man in stormtrooper armor who is killed by a kinetic weapon (claws) in a slicing motion.

More surprisingly, the impact caused only minimal transfer of momentum to the trooper. The armor, in the The Bacta War scene, did not even keep the soldier alive until he hit the ground and had the claws punch through the back of his armor once there was nowhere more to fall--unlike the scene with the Imperial officer who threw, with his robotic prosthetic arm, a spear at a recruit, where a weapon described as 'razor sharp' produced only a nick in the armor, and transfered enough momentum to throw a full-sized adult through the air and into a wall.

Too, at Endor, Stormtrooper armor did an admiralbe job of stopping arrows.

There is some excuse- from page 234, "[Iella] saw figures in white moving into the burning village. 'Stormies.' Elscol laughed [...]. 'Not hardly. Look at the armor and how they wear it. Most of them are too small for it. They're Home Defence troops all dressed up for this operation.'"

So, perhaps our boys here are wearing low-quality knockoffs, or a mixture of locally-built armor shaped to look like and go together with stormtrooper armor. Perhaps, for instance, this trooper was wearing the armor of a stormie who had been shot through the back, and was wearing nothing more than a sheet of white-painted plasteel on his back.

What do you think? How do we reconcile this quote to onscreen evidence and the spear quote from Lightsabers?[/u]

Monomolecular claws? Maybe the bug man had his claws augmented.

You hit the nail on the head, Home-Defense troops, no need to waste REAL Stormy armor on them since that stuff is expensive(Various sources)

Home built armor won't nessary be as good as the real thing.

Then again the Same series of books as Storm Commando's helmets, breaking under punches. (From the Gand Pilot's exoskelton) And I find it hard to beleive they'd be using substandard armour. So I'd chalk it up to bad writing myself.

Why would armor designed, presumably, to either stop or mitigate blaster bolts be automatically good against kenetic attacks? Again, I'm assuming; but the most common weapon a stormtrooper would be going up against is a blaster, hence his armor should be designed around stopping that, not necessarily against everything else.

Sure, it has to be rugged for a field enviroment, thus offer some semblence of protection of basic kenetic attacks, but that doesn't mean it is purpose designed to stop slashing attacks from claws or other melee weapons.

Knife wrote:Why would armor designed, presumably, to either stop or mitigate blaster bolts be automatically good against kenetic attacks? Again, I'm assuming; but the most common weapon a stormtrooper would be going up against is a blaster, hence his armor should be designed around stopping that, not necessarily against everything else.

Sure, it has to be rugged for a field enviroment, thus offer some semblence of protection of basic kenetic attacks, but that doesn't mean it is purpose designed to stop slashing attacks from claws or other melee weapons.

A man wearing stormtrooper armor in the Yound Jedi Knights series gets hit with a spear thrown hard enough to pick him up and slam him against the nearest wall, and he finds only a tiny nick in his chest plate.

Kuja wrote:

Knife wrote:Why would armor designed, presumably, to either stop or mitigate blaster bolts be automatically good against kenetic attacks? Again, I'm assuming; but the most common weapon a stormtrooper would be going up against is a blaster, hence his armor should be designed around stopping that, not necessarily against everything else.

Sure, it has to be rugged for a field enviroment, thus offer some semblence of protection of basic kenetic attacks, but that doesn't mean it is purpose designed to stop slashing attacks from claws or other melee weapons.

A man wearing stormtrooper armor in the Yound Jedi Knights series gets hit with a spear thrown hard enough to pick him up and slam him against the nearest wall, and he finds only a tiny nick in his chest plate.

Same with The "Tattooine Ghost" incident. Tuskens fire on stormtrooper armor that carries enough momentum to knock them on their asses, yet the armor isn't penetrated except at certain weak points (like eye holes.)

Edit: Some of the Dietz "Dark Forces" novels as well as the "Survivor's Quest" novel indicate that in some cases stormtrooper armor can survive multiple (direct I believe) blaster hits, while other sources suggest its only one.

Survivor's Quest was because the opposition were using pre-clone war weaponry which were half broken.

Kuja wrote:
A man wearing stormtrooper armor in the Yound Jedi Knights series gets hit with a spear thrown hard enough to pick him up and slam him against the nearest wall, and he finds only a tiny nick in his chest plate.

Yeah, I remember that. The EU strikes again.

Knife wrote:

Kuja wrote:
A man wearing stormtrooper armor in the Yound Jedi Knights series gets hit with a spear thrown hard enough to pick him up and slam him against the nearest wall, and he finds only a tiny nick in his chest plate.

Yeah, I remember that. The EU strikes again.

Just like that one time where stormtroopers weather a barrage of arrows and don't take any casualties except for when an arrow manages to strike the black bodysuit in stead of the stopping plates.

What book was that, again?

Crazedwraith wrote:Survivor's Quest was because the opposition were using pre-clone war weaponry which were half broken.

Er yeah. Given the relative stagnation in the galaxy, weaponry form the Clone Wars era isn't going to be orders of magnitude more powerful than modern ones.

And how "broken down" do you think they can get and still function pray tell?

Feil wrote:
Just like that one time where stormtroopers weather a barrage of arrows and don't take any casualties except for when an arrow manages to strike the black bodysuit in stead of the stopping plates.

What book was that, again?

Throttle back, there killer. I have no problem with armor rugged enough for field issue to be able to provide a semblence of protection, it would need to be usable.

But to pick a trooper up and toss him back through the kenetic energy imparted by the spear and have nothing but a nick is rather silly. How far down the list of design features was that?

1) need to make a blaster hit either irrelevant or survivable
2) can't have the armor shatter when troops drop down to take cover
3) need to make armor resiliant to or make a blast survivable from common hand held explosives
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99) in case of spear thowing from bionic armed enemies, need to have armor able to withstand such a strike and somehow keep the trooper inside from turning to meatloaf from such a shock force.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:Survivor's Quest was because the opposition were using pre-clone war weaponry which were half broken.

Er yeah. Given the relative stagnation in the galaxy, weaponry form the Clone Wars era isn't going to be orders of magnitude more powerful than modern ones.

And how "broken down" do you think they can get and still function pray tell?

The comment was that the Tibiana gas in the blasters had expired or something meaning they had lost most of their punch. The BlasTechs for example that the stormtroopers were packing were capable of shooting straight through the OR era armor vests used on the dreadnaughts and the wolvekill creatures.

The Wolvekills completly shrugged off the OR era blasters without harm (well it pissed them off but nothing more).

Knife wrote:Throttle back, there killer. I have no problem with armor rugged enough for field issue to be able to provide a semblence of protection, it would need to be usable.

But to pick a trooper up and toss him back through the kenetic energy imparted by the spear and have nothing but a nick is rather silly. How far down the list of design features was that?

1) need to make a blaster hit either irrelevant or survivable
2) can't have the armor shatter when troops drop down to take cover
3) need to make armor resiliant to or make a blast survivable from common hand held explosives
.
.
.
.
.
99) in case of spear thowing from bionic armed enemies, need to have armor able to withstand such a strike and somehow keep the trooper inside from turning to meatloaf from such a shock force.

It's more likely that the primary function of Stormtrooper armor is to defend against shrapnel and splinters, with a secondary purpose of making blaster bolts survivable--or just to force the enemy to use higher-powered blasts and run out of ammunition faster. We don't see very many people hit by blasters who get up again, so it's not very likely that the armor makes blaster bolts 'irrelevant'.

Too, 'slug-throwers' are still common in Star Wars, particularly among the low-tech or poor sections of the galaxy. Given the rather ubiquitous deployment of Stormtroopers (they are, it seems, the Empire's Marines) there would be significant advantage in being able to withstand most bullets--and if they could not withstand bullets, and could withstand blasters, then people expecting to fight stormtroopers would, presumably, use bullets. An armor-piercing .50 calibur round could probably give roughly similar effects to those of the spear in Lightsabers.

Feil wrote:
It's more likely that the primary function of Stormtrooper armor is to defend against shrapnel and splinters, with a secondary purpose of making blaster bolts survivable--or just to force the enemy to use higher-powered blasts and run out of ammunition faster. We don't see very many people hit by blasters who get up again, so it's not very likely that the armor makes blaster bolts 'irrelevant'.

Hence the next tiny part I put in there- "or survivable".

Too, 'slug-throwers' are still common in Star Wars, particularly among the low-tech or poor sections of the galaxy. Given the rather ubiquitous deployment of Stormtroopers (they are, it seems, the Empire's Marines) there would be significant advantage in being able to withstand most bullets--and if they could not withstand bullets, and could withstand blasters, then people expecting to fight stormtroopers would, presumably, use bullets.

Again, I'd assume they'd make it survivable but that's just my opinion.

An armor-piercing .50 calibur round could probably give roughly similar effects to those of the spear in Lightsabers.

No it wouldn't. I've fired many a Ma Duce and I've never been thrown back across the firing line by the recoil. I've even seen someone pick it up and fire it 'assult fire' style with a hotmit and he wasn't thrown back by the recoil.

Anyways, my remark about the EU was not to disreguard it or even say that it's wrong. I believe the instances in the EU where they show uber armor that can protect a stormie from all sorts of shit. It's just that it is indeed wank to think that they deploy an armor that protects them from just about everything on a shock trooper force. Even in the Empire there should be a risk/benifit ratio in armor for clone troops or even conscripts, either being more or less expendable.

Why make the armor able to withstand *everthing* rather than just make it rugged and to make common known threats survivable?

Knife wrote:

An armor-piercing .50 calibur round could probably give roughly similar effects to those of the spear in Lightsabers.

No it wouldn't. I've fired many a Ma Duce and I've never been thrown back across the firing line by the recoil. I've even seen someone pick it up and fire it 'assult fire' style with a hotmit and he wasn't thrown back by the recoil.

That is true. Conceeded.

Anyways, my remark about the EU was not to disreguard it or even say that it's wrong. I believe the instances in the EU where they show uber armor that can protect a stormie from all sorts of shit. It's just that it is indeed wank to think that they deploy an armor that protects them from just about everything on a shock trooper force. Even in the Empire there should be a risk/benifit ratio in armor for clone troops or even conscripts, either being more or less expendable.

Why make the armor able to withstand *everthing* rather than just make it rugged and to make common known threats survivable?

While the Lightsabers quote is almost certainly a result of author ignorance, I still think that impacts of that level are reasonable to add to the list of things it should protect against. For one thing, the ability to defend against all shrapnel and--even those propelled by uber Star Wars explosives--has to be an important consideration. (Picture a Claymore-style mine, but using Star Wars' level of tech for the explosive.) Given that we know Star Wars' technology is so rediculously advanced, I don't think Stormtrooper armor's capabilities qualify as wank any more than your average slag-a-planet-in-a-day Star Destroyer.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Monomolecular claws? Maybe the bug man had his claws augmented.

From what I remember, that particular vratix did indeed have artificially enhanced claws. The terrorist group it was a part of actually referred to themselves as the Blackclaw Rebels, IIRC.

Feil wrote:Too, 'slug-throwers' are still common in Star Wars, particularly among the low-tech or poor sections of the galaxy. Given the rather ubiquitous deployment of Stormtroopers (they are, it seems, the Empire's Marines) there would be significant advantage in being able to withstand most bullets--and if they could not withstand bullets, and could withstand blasters, then people expecting to fight stormtroopers would, presumably, use bullets. An armor-piercing .50 calibur round could probably give roughly similar effects to those of the spear in Lightsabers.

I wouldn't exactly say slug-throwers are cheaper, but they're definately easier to maintain than blasters and more reliable in certain environments, such as Harrun Kal. And considering some of the places where Stormtroopers might potentially be deployed, having protection against slugthrowers is a plus.

While Knife's summary of possible requirements for infantry armor is logical enough, I on the other hand surmise that structural strength is an integral specification in the white armor that troopers are equipped with.

One of the largest threats to deployments of infantrymen on a battlefield is shrapnel from weapons that rely on fragmentation to cause casualties. Such weapons would be able to eliminate large numbers of soft, fleshy troops with relative ease. Resistance to such effects are one of the chief advantages of battle droids over organic infantry, which was a significant concern in the Clone Wars.

In order to counteract this weakness when using cloned human soldiers, the obvious countermeasure is to encase your troopers entirely in hard armor. There may be soft body armor that offers resistance against blaster fire and weaker energy kinetic impactors, but hard full body armor is the only real way to do it, and considering the durability of Star Wars materials (good strength to weight ratios), it can be made a reality in SW. By completely covering the troopers in rigid armor, the effective casualty-causing blast radii of fragmentation weaponry is statstically reduced by a drastic margin.

Additionally, I suppose the armor also has to provide protection against heat flux of detonations.. and secondarily, against blaster fire. Medical technology is likely advanced enough that simply allowing a trooper to survive a shot to a critical location (even if incapacitated) would allow the administration of treatment such as bacta or organ replacement (made easier by the fact we're dealing with clones), and fixing up a trooper would be more cost effective than replacing one.

As Fell pointed out, the kinetic energy from a piece of shrapnel propelled from an explosion generated by a Star Wars tech level anti-infantry weapon would likely be very high. The armor would have to be able to resist this in order to do its job.
Hence, I see no problems with the description in Lightsabers.

I've always thought Stormie armour is completely ridiculous anyway. You can produce a droid which is clearly stronger and more durable than a trooper, but not as smart and versatile. So why not just combine them? Gee now there's an idea! How about battlesuits that augment the users abilities, rather than cumbersome armour that is often more of a curse than a boon, with built in, user interfaced weapons systems, sensors, shields and repulsorlifts. 'Oh but Dark Trooper...' Yeah, that 'project' which could clearly have produced a major benefit to the Empire? And was cancelled on a whim? Nice and realistic that wasn't it. And don't even suggest it wouldn't be 'cost effective'. If the Empire can build a DS in a year or two with no one noticing, they can build a few billion armour suits with no trouble.

So we have to choose between M.Stackpole and Kevin J. Anderson for the durability of stormtrooper-armor? Talk about being trapped between a rock and a hard place.

Doesn't stormie-armor have heatsinks, according to OT:VD?

The thing about the under-equiped troopers in the bacta war could be likely.

Isard had said to Vorru at the beggining of the book that she wanted a Thyferran force to get in over it's head and die, so that when her stormtroopers saved them the Thyferran people would be gratefull towards her. So it's possible that she equiped them with crap armour so that would happen.

Also one of the Rogues notes that Stormtroopers stopped using white armour in forests after the Endor fiasco, so again why send the Thyferrans in with white armour if not to have them killed.

It's also possible the Vratix initially hit the bodyglove and had his claws cutting through the armor from the inside out. It would require somewhat peculiar armor qualities, but it's possible that the armor is weaker to cuts from the inside out than from the outside in. This would provide for reconciliation of the two different levels of stormtrooper armor toughness against kinetic strikes.