StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Just picked up a copy of Betrayal (two days before release!), the kick-off to Star Wars's newest episodic story-arc. Against my better judgement, I might add, and mostly to cut through the near-certain bullshit too many proud owners of advance copies are spreading around... and I have to say I'm very, very pleasantly surprised so far. For those who haven't been following it, it's written by Aaron Allston, the author of X-Wing books 5, 6, 7, and 9, and the Enemy Lines arc of the New Jedi Order.

Anyway, since most folks here seem reluctant to purchase any more post-Dark Nest books, I figured I'd "share the wealth," so to speak. I'm at the moment about halfway through it. In no particular order, here are a few interesting bits:

- New CapShip: Mon Calamari Carrier, little said about it, judging by the name some sort of fighter carrier.
- New CapShip: Galactic-class Battle Carrier, described as a much broader version of an Imperator massing about twice as much; can carry at least five and a half squadrons of fighters in its bay without trouble. The name probaby means little, since it was chosen to get away from the oh-so-scary Star Destroyer monniker.
- New fighter: Eta-5 Interceptor. Has shields, two engines, lasers, concussion missiles, and is described as fragile and fast. Pretty obviously a descendant of the Actis line.
- New fighter: A-10, mentioned in the same sentance as A-9 vigilance interceptors. No other description.
- New fighter variant: XJ6 (or T-65J6, as I prefer it) X-wing, little description
- New fighter: Corellian attack fighter. I'm unsure as yet whether this is a general term for attacking Corellian fighters or a specific class, since it was used in both ways
- Possible new capship: a Nebulon-series vessel. Maybe a C, D, or lower letter? It was never called a B, which is telling since Allston is previously more specific in starship descriptions.
- Returning capship: Strident-class Star Defender, part of the Corellian fleet. Is smaller than a Galactic-class Battle Carrier.

- Coruscant is well on it's way to returning to normal. Vong life still lives at bedrock level, making, as Leia says, "the shadows deeper," but it's more or less back to being a bustling metropolis.
- The Five Worlds of the Corellian system is the major rebellious faction here, but Fondor, Commenor, Bespine, and parts of the Corporate Sector are said to be sympathetic. Apparently Bespine has grown significantly in status, since it's mentioned in the same breath with those more influential worlds.
- Admiral Pellaeon is acting-CinC for the GA (the Galactic Alliance is, refreshingly, always referred to by its acronym). Acting... for five years, apparently.
- The Jedi are solidly a part of the GA.

That's all the really interesting background stuff I can think of off the top of my head... I'm gonna get back to reading, and will post direct quotes later as needed, especially regarding the new ships and stuff.

They should have just dropped Coruscant and based themselves off of Denon or another large planet. Kuat or Corellia.

The first thing that struck me by what you said is that

1. They have just degraded the notion of a Star Defender
2. We see more obsession with the romantic fantasy of the short life of a starfighter pilot
3. Pellaeon ought to be retired, unless the GA is so short on admirals that an old admiral like him can't retire.

Was there even mentioned the Mon Calamari Viscount?

Thanks for the starship details, 000. I'm disappointed with what they've done to Star Defenders, now that they've actually provided some details about them. The new Galactic-class Battle Carrier is extremely minimalistic. It's dedicated carrier bigger than the ISD, and it can carry a whopping five and a half squadrons without trouble? Looks like the Endurance-class has been overthrown as the lamest dedicated carrier in SW. Then again, I guess I should be happy that they actually made a ship larger than the ISD, for once.

The one thing that I do like is all the tie-ins to previously existing craft, like the Eta-5, A-10, and the unnamed Nebulon ship. It's much better to see a lineage of ships than a bunch of brand spanking new fighters pulled out of thin air.

Actually I prefer new fighters pulled out of thin air. The fighters based off of Clone Wars design are contrived, IMO- they didn't "exist" before RotS but they suddently appear after it comes out.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The first thing that struck me by what you said is that

1. They have just degraded the notion of a Star Defender

Hmm, I may not be up to date on such matters but I thought the Strident wasn't a stardefender, yet a stardefender was a happy-happy NR version of a Stardestroyer.

Wasn't a Strident suppost to be a Starcruiers?

Vympel wrote:Actually I prefer new fighters pulled out of thin air. The fighters based off of Clone Wars design are contrived, IMO- they didn't "exist" before RotS but they suddently appear after it comes out.

Agreed, they really shouldn't try to shoehorn in ROTS crap this late in the game, atleast in reguards to ship designs and shit. I mean if they were rummaging through a bone yard and a character saw an ARC or V-wing, so be it but damn.

Jim Raynor wrote:It's dedicated carrier bigger than the ISD, and it can carry a whopping five and a half squadrons without trouble?

Which is especially odd in light of the fact that the Imperial class carries six squadrons as its embarked carrier space wing.

Mr. Allston's writing has always been weak from a technical perspective -- a modified corvette was able to defeat an Imperial Star Destroyer in Wraith Squadron -- but it's usually strong in characterization and social interaction. Presumably that is again the case here.

Publius wrote:

Jim Raynor wrote:It's dedicated carrier bigger than the ISD, and it can carry a whopping five and a half squadrons without trouble?

Which is especially odd in light of the fact that the Imperial class carries six squadrons as its embarked carrier space wing.

Mr. Allston's writing has always been weak from a technical perspective -- a modified corvette was able to defeat an Imperial Star Destroyer in Wraith Squadron -- but it's usually strong in characterization and social interaction. Presumably that is again the case here.

Considering the loadout of the older and smaller yet considered more a carrier than the Imperator, the Venator, it's even odder.

I hope they at least give those carriers a good armnament or I will be damned if they can't even fight with a Tector or ISD. It is already weird enough to have dedicated carriers when the trend towards multipurpose ships was already there. Alas... they still think fighters can do all the shit work.

Before I head off to bed, I'll clarify a bit on the Galactic-class battle carrier issue:

page 65 wrote: In design it was something like the old Imperial-class Star De-
stroyers, and was just as long, though where the ISDs looked more like
narrow, armor-piercing arrowheads, this ship was broader, massing half
again what an ISD did.

It was the Galactic Alliance Space Vessel Dodonna, the second cap-
ital ship named for the Rebel Alliance-era military leader who had
plotted and exectuted the destruction of the first Death Star, and it was
the first completed vessel of its type, the Galactic-class battle carrier--
a designation chosen to avoid unpleasant reminders of the old Star De-
stroyers, of which this new ship was little more than an elaboration and update.

So, basically, I wouldn't worry about it having a smallish fighter capacity: the class designation-- note how it's in lowercase as opposed to the proper noun Star Destroyer-- is a public-relations name, not an truly relevant class designation.

Hell, given Denning's preferred starships, I wouldn't be surprised if it was called a Star Destroyer at some point.

page 83 wrote: The bay where his squadron's X-wings waited was frantic with ac-
tivity. A broad expanse, all scuffed and burned permacreteflooring and
pristine glow white ceiling, it was the size of a sports arena, with room
for Luke's squadron, a squad of Eta-5 interceptors, two squads of
shield equipped TIEs from the Imperial Remnant, and a half squad of
B-wings for support.

So, four and a half squadrons as a lower limit. There's never any upper limit given, and again bear in mind that the class designation is said in the text to be inaccurate.

About the Stridents:

page 94 wrote: "Working on it," his chief sensor operator said. "They have noth-
ing in the size class o Dodonna, but they have Strident-class Star De-
fenders and a large number of frigates, corvettes, patrol boards, gunships,
and heavy transports."

Much as I dislike making Stridents smaller than ISDs, I'm not too concerned about it-- it's a throwaway line, and hopefully will be changed later. Too, the Dodonna masses 1.5 times as much as an ISD; maybe the Strident is a more gracile but longer ship.

On the Eta-5s, I'm not going to bother with direct quotes, but from the descriptions and name they're likely more heavily armed versions of Eta-2s. I'm a bit nonplussed about this; while it makes sense for a successful line to continue (presumably there have been Eta-3s and -4s over the years), I thought that it was bought out by SFS waaaay back. It'd have been neater if it was the new Jedi Starfighter rather than the XJ6, maybe resurrected by KDY or SFS as a symbolic thing, but it's just a standard GA interceptor piloted by GA pilots. Really, the only reason for the thing is prequel "kewl"-ness-- replace the term Eta-5 everywhere in the text with "A-Wing" and nothing would change. Hell, they even have the same armament.

I'll post more later.

EDIT: As for fighter wank-- yeah, Allston does have a thing for it, still-- three Eta-5s manage to take out a Nebulon-series frigate by shooting out the deflector shield generators apparently THROUGH THE DAMN SHIELDS, but to be fair the skirmish over Corellia involved starfighters primarily because the capships were afraid of engaging and escalating the situation. Basically, the whole "battle" was a big game of chicken.

Allston ought to be banned from writing space battles. Wait, you said "massed half as much as an ISD"? Does that mean it masses 1/2 the mass of the ISD or the reverse? That's vague. I would have thought it "masses twice that of the ISD"?

"Masses half again as much as the ISD", meaning that the ship masses 1.5 times as much as an Imperator-class. Supposedly it's still 1600 meters long, but with a much broader wingspan. I find it curious that the Strident-class Star Defender is smaller than it, considering that the Viscount-class (Mon Calamari Star Defender) is supposed to be twice as large as the Mediator-class battle cruiser, which is in turn "larger" than an ISD.

President Sharky wrote:"Masses half again as much as the ISD", meaning that the ship masses 1.5 times as much as an Imperator-class. Supposedly it's still 1600 meters long, but with a much broader wingspan. I find it curious that the Strident-class Star Defender is smaller than it, considering that the Viscount-class (Mon Calamari Star Defender) is supposed to be twice as large as the Mediator-class battle cruiser, which is in turn "larger" than an ISD.

Hmm, I might be confusing all my Mon Cal ships, the Mediator was the ship in Vector Prime? Right? I'm not sure where the Strident popped up but isn't it some sort of Starcruiser, bigger than a Home One tyep ship?

The Visicount is a SSD sized ship, isn't it?

Strident-class Star Defender is smaller than it, considering that the Viscount-class...

Wasn't the difference between Stridents and Viscounts that one was constructed at Corellia while the other was made at Dac (Mon Calamari) but they were otherwise the same design?

And now it's lighter than this "carrier"? :S

Guess it's long and thin then.

Nitpick: fighter counts for ships that carry only TIE fighters and similar small craft can't be equated with ships carrying X-Wings. The latter sort of starfighter isn't crammed in on convenient racks, and takes up significantly more volume.

page 65 wrote:the Galactic-class battle carrier--
a designation chosen to avoid unpleasant reminders of the old Star De-
stroyers, of which this new ship was little more than an elaboration and update.

OK, this is good. The book flat out says that the ship is basically a Star Destroyer, and that this "battle carrier" designation is nothing but PC crap.

President Sharky wrote:"Masses half again as much as the ISD", meaning that the ship masses 1.5 times as much as an Imperator-class. Supposedly it's still 1600 meters long, but with a much broader wingspan. I find it curious that the Strident-class Star Defender is smaller than it, considering that the Viscount-class (Mon Calamari Star Defender) is supposed to be twice as large as the Mediator-class battle cruiser, which is in turn "larger" than an ISD.

Can anybody post the exact quotes concerning the sizes of the Stident, Viscount, and Mediator-classes? Depending on the evidence, we might have reason to dismiss the idea of the Strident being smaller than a Galactic/ISD as contradictory BS, or we may have to accept that the EU dropped the ball again and downgraded all of these ships.

From SW wiki:

The power of a Viscount-class Star Defender was evident during the Battle of Dac. The Viscount was part of a trio of heavy warships, including the SSD Guardian and the Mon Calamari battle cruiser Harbinger, that was deployed by the Galactic Alliance Navy to use their heavy long range weapons to assault the center of the Yuuzhan Vong armada. The heavy guns of the Viscount were instrumental in destroying numerous warships.

It's being compared with an Executor dreadnought and a Mon Cal battlecruiser (probably a Mediator, which is half its size). There's no way this thing is weaker than a Galactic "battle carrier".

I guess it has enough mass to carry big engines and big guns, but nothing else. A >3.2 km long needle or hollow superstructure. :P

Have Strident-class ships been mentioned anywhere previously? Maybe they wanted to call this thing a Star Defender without it having to be as powerful as ones previous? Weren't Victory-class ships called Star Destroyers yet were quite a bit smaller and weaker than an ISD?

000 wrote:- New CapShip: Galactic-class Battle Carrier, described as a much broader version of an Imperator massing about twice as much; can carry at least five and a half squadrons of fighters in its bay without trouble. The name probaby means little, since it was chosen to get away from the oh-so-scary Star Destroyer monniker.

Twice as large but carries less than an ISD? WTH? BTW: actually masses or just "twice as large"? EDIT: Nevermind.

000 wrote:- Returning capship: Strident-class Star Defender, part of the Corellian fleet. Is smaller than a Galactic-class Battle Carrier.

This is the second time the Strident have been downgraded in size from the original text. I guess that's it, then.

000 wrote:- Admiral Pellaeon is acting-CinC for the GA (the Galactic Alliance is, refreshingly, always referred to by its acronym). Acting... for five years, apparently.

How old does that make him?

Jim Raynor wrote:Thanks for the starship details, 000. I'm disappointed with what they've done to Star Defenders, now that they've actually provided some details about them. The new Galactic-class Battle Carrier is extremely minimalistic. It's dedicated carrier bigger than the ISD, and it can carry a whopping five and a half squadrons without trouble? Looks like the Endurance-class has been overthrown as the lamest dedicated carrier in SW. Then again, I guess I should be happy that they actually made a ship larger than the ISD, for once.

The one thing that I do like is all the tie-ins to previously existing craft, like the Eta-5, A-10, and the unnamed Nebulon ship. It's much better to see a lineage of ships than a bunch of brand spanking new fighters pulled out of thin air.

36 fighters per squadron, 4 squadrons per wing, 2 wings per Endurance. All from the same book. 288 fighters for a 1040 m long carrier. How's this lame again?

I don't really like the appearance of the ETA-5 and A-10. The ETA-5 doesn't seem like any improvement over existing older designs. Maybe they could fill the budget market, but meh...

How old does that make him?

Going by his early life, at least 97.

Fuck.

In "Vector Prime" we have Viscount-Class StarDefenders being the largest ships ever built on MonCalamari and twice as large as Mediator-Class Battlecruisers, in "Hero's Trial" the NRDF has "enough BACs, Mediator-Class Battlecruisers and Strident-Class Stardefenders to engage the enemy in multiple theatres" suggesting AGAIN the Stardefender to be a large battleship and in "Jedi Eclipse" three Stridents are expected to hold their own against a YV-fleet. Not to mention the pairing with Guardian and Harbinger.

Fuck, fuck, fuck.

FTeik wrote:Fuck.

In "Vector Prime" we have Viscount-Class StarDefenders being the largest ships ever built on MonCalamari and twice as large as Mediator-Class Battlecruisers, in "Hero's Trial" the NRDF has "enough BACs, Mediator-Class Battlecruisers and Strident-Class Stardefenders to engage the enemy in multiple theatres" suggesting AGAIN the Stardefender to be a large battleship and in "Jedi Eclipse" three Stridents are expected to hold their own against a YV-fleet. Not to mention the pairing with Guardian and Harbinger.

Fuck, fuck, fuck.

I really don't think EU authors age given, nor care, about the size and scope. They look at the ever present ISD and the Liberty (and subtypes) and decide that they are the biggest and baddest of the bad, with a SSD a rare thing.

Why would a battlecruiser be that much bigger than an ISD? Nevermind the Home One which was twice the size of an Imperator.

They look at the ever present ISD and the Liberty (and subtypes) and decide that they are the biggest and baddest of the bad, with a SSD a rare thing.

I really fucking hate this line of thinking, in every NR source, whenever new ships are being made, they always come out as slightly smaller than the ISD, or really small, like those god-awful New Class ships.

And now they're once again wanking off to the ISD by having the "monumentally large Galactic-class" be a whopping 50% larger, mass-wise, and downgrading the Strident-class in the process, too! Whee....

Counteracting this, I like what I've seen so far of the EAW:FOC stuff. They seem to be upgrading the Home One now. It looked at least twice the length of the Liberty ships, and even though that isn't quite there yet, it might have been on a "lesser realism" scale (since they can be adjusted in-game). Hey, better than nothing!

nightmare wrote:36 fighters per squadron, 4 squadrons per wing, 2 wings per Endurance. All from the same book. 288 fighters for a 1040 m long carrier. How's this lame again?

Where are you getting 4 squadrons per wing? As for 36 fighters in a squadron, the only place where I ever see that is once when CTD is describing the Corona-class frigate:

The Corona is designed to carry a starfighter squadron (36 starfighters), although not all frigates have a full complement and some are assigned short-range fighters only

The same book later implies that 1 wing = 3 squadrons = 36 fighters when describing the Defender-class assault carrier:

The Defender carrier is mothership to one wing of fighters, sometimes consisting of a single class of starfighter, sometimes a mixed wing. The majority of the Defender-based wings in the Fifth Fleet have three E-wing squadrons, while a few are dedicated to supporting K-wing bomber squadrons.

I'm inclined to believe that what the book said about the Corona was a mistake, for the following reasons:

1. Rebel/New Republic wings being 3 squadrons of 12 fighters each is common throughout WEG EU

2. WEG is extremely minimalist.

3. The book never says anything whatsoever about the Corona's unusually large "squadron," it just says squadron and lists the number of ships in parentheses. I believe it's just a typo, and they meant "wing."