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The Imperial Army is Underused
Posted: 2006-06-01 07:13pm
by Big Orange
In Star Wars's OT we saw relatively little of the Imperial Army and much more of the elite Stormtroopers. And with the average movie goer seeing the Imperial Stormtrooper in all of the Galatiic Empire's military actions in the films, there would be a common misconception that the Imperial Stormtroopers are the regular infantry in the Imperial forces military when in actual fact they are a elite force that has more in common with America's elite formations like the Marine Corps., Rangers or Air Bourne Division.
They are not aware of the Empire's regular infantry formations that come under the Imperial Army and this brainbug is also found amongst the comic book and novel writers in Star War's rather muddled EU. Even in the EU you see elite Stormtroopers doing military work that should be left to the Galactic Empire's equivalent of the National Guard with them manning most Imperial garrisons or police check points.
However, we do see Imperial Army personnel briefly during the Battle of Hoth and the Battle of Endor (they were piloting the AT-AT and AT-ST walkers). When you see General Veers in a AT-AT cockpit, the military gear he is wearing is most likely the regular infantry uniform worn by soldiers in the Imperial Army (the gear worn by the AT-AT and AT-PT crew could be common gear in some Imperial Army infantry formations as well). The most common soldier seen apart from the Stormtroopers are those guys in black uniforms and polished black beetle helmets (Imperial Navy guards?).
And in the EU the Galatic Empire's executive political wing, COMPNOR, has it's own paramilitary infantry force as well.
Re: The Imperial Army is Underused
Posted: 2006-06-01 07:17pm
by Knife
Big Orange wrote:In Star Wars's OT we saw relatively little of the Imperial Army and much more of the elite Stormtroopers. And with the average movie goer seeing the Imperial Stormtrooper in all of the Galatiic Empire's military actions in the films, there would be a common misconception that the Imperial Stormtroopers are the regular infantry in the Imperial forces military when in actual fact they are a elite force that has more in common with America's elite formations like the Marine Corps., Rangers or Air Bourne Division.
They are not aware of the Empire's regular infantry formations that come under the Imperial Army and this brainbug is also found amongst the comic book and novel writers in Star War's rather muddled EU. Even in the EU you see elite Stormtroopers doing military work that should be left to the Galactic Empire's equivalent of the National Guard with non-elite infantrymen manning most Imperial garrisons or police check points.
However, we do see Imperial Army personnel briefly during the Battle of Hoth and the Battle of Endor (they were piloting the AT-AT and AT-ST walkers). When you see General Veers in a AT-AT cockpit, the military gear he is wearing is most likely the regular infantry uniform worn by soldiers in the Imperial Army (the gear worn by the AT-AT and AT-PT crew could be common gear in some Imperial Army infantry formations as well). The most common soldier seen apart from the Stormtroopers are those guys in black uniforms and polished black beetle helmets (Imperial Navy guards?).
And in the EU the Galatic Empire's executive political wing, COMPNOR, has it's own paramilitary infantry force as well.
All through the OT we see back world dustballs. That isn't the galacitic norm either.
Posted: 2006-06-01 07:26pm
by Quadlok
Its mentioned many times in the EU that while people in Stormtrooper armor are very common, actual Stormtroopers aren't, at least post ROTJ. Basically, it was a way for warlords and successor states to give an air of legitimacy to themselves.
Posted: 2006-06-01 08:21pm
by Darth Tanner
those guys in black uniforms and polished black beetle helmets (Imperial Navy guards?).
The Imperial fleet troops must have more function than simple guards, although they appear to do this aswell (Executor bridge) as we see them operation not only landing bay and prison control for the Death Stars and operating the control panels of the Death Star, it is likely their uniform is simply used by all non-officers in the Fleet.
As regard to the non presence of Imperial Army troops, do these guys only handle walkers & tanks? A star destroyer holds nearly 10,000 infantry - all stormtroopers - so either SDs only carry elite troops (with army grunts coming along in bulky & cheaper large troop transports) or stormtroopers make up all of the empires infantry, which would put pressure on them being elite.
I find it likely that Imperial Army troops are stationed as garrison troops rather while Stormtroopers are stationed aboard fleets, being both equipped and trained as offencive units.
Also this armour may just be a field officers uniform, it dosnt offer much protection and seem to incorporate a lot of electronics.
Posted: 2006-06-01 09:16pm
by The Original Nex
A star destroyer holds nearly 10,000 infantry - all stormtroopers - so either SDs only carry elite troops (with army grunts coming along in bulky & cheaper large troop transports) or stormtroopers make up all of the empires infantry, which would put pressure on them being elite.
The Imperial Stormtrooper Corps is also known as the Imperial Marines so they are the rough equivilant to the USMC. As to their presence on Star Destroyers, as Marines, they would be present on warships as the onboard troops, while, as you said, Army troops would be more often based out of a planet, or assigned to particular garrison and transported by troop transports when they need to be moved. Although the fact that Stormtroopers are also shown to have occupational garrison duties clouds the issue a bit. I wonder if Stormtroopers are often dropped first in response to a crisis, and, after a time, the Imperial Army comes in to take over things permenantly?
Re: The Imperial Army is Underused
Posted: 2006-06-01 09:29pm
by PainRack
Big Orange wrote: The most common soldier seen apart from the Stormtroopers are those guys in black uniforms and polished black beetle helmets (Imperial Navy guards?).
The CCG and so far, any other source that I seen describes them as naval troopers alright.
Which begs the question of why the Imperial navy has two seperate infantry corps.
Posted: 2006-06-01 09:51pm
by PayBack
Navy troops for regular security work, and stormtroopers for assaults? One offensive the other defensive. Though admittedly STs were guarding on the DS.. which in the case of US marines is common on warships.
Perhaps it's more one is recruited and loyal to their officers first, the other is grown and would shoot their commander in the back without hesitation should the Emperor order it?
Posted: 2006-06-01 09:58pm
by Noble Ire
PayBack wrote:Navy troops for regular security work, and stormtroopers for assaults? One offensive the other defensive. Though admittedly STs were guarding on the DS.. which in the case of US marines is common on warships.
Perhaps it's more one is recruited and loyal to their officers first, the other is grown and would shoot their commander in the back without hesitation should the Emperor order it?
No. Stormtroopers are not, at least not in all cases, fanatically loyal, nor are they all clones. The training academy on Carida is evidence enough of that.
Posted: 2006-06-01 10:23pm
by PayBack
OK, I thought as of the latest DVD release (which I haven't seen yet), that all the Stormtroopers were now (supposed to be) clones? At least that's what I read was the idea GL was wanting to portray by changing their voices etc.
Then again it doesn't explicitly preclude the possibility of some of them not being recruited humans if the EU says otherwise either.
Posted: 2006-06-01 10:23pm
by Shadowtraveler
I'd imagine ISDs having mostly Stormies as troops is more of a safeguard than anything else: If the captain starts thinking rebellious thoughts, there's about 10,000 friendly stormtroopers with big, friendly rifles to help him think differently
Posted: 2006-06-01 10:40pm
by Noble Ire
PayBack wrote:OK, I thought as of the latest DVD release (which I haven't seen yet), that all the Stormtroopers were now (supposed to be) clones? At least that's what I read was the idea GL was wanting to portray by changing their voices etc.
Then again it doesn't explicitly preclude the possibility of some of them not being recruited humans if the EU says otherwise either.
I haven't seen the DVDs for a while, but I'm almost certain that none of the stromtrooper voices were changed. Boba Fett's was, for obvious, if not completely necessary, reasons, but no one else was modified in such a way, IIRC.
Re: The Imperial Army is Underused
Posted: 2006-06-02 12:29am
by Darth Raptor
PainRack wrote:Which begs the question of why the Imperial navy has two seperate infantry corps.
It doesn't. The stormtroopers are independent of both the Army and the Navy.
Posted: 2006-06-02 01:03am
by Vympel
Ever since I heard about the concept, I despised the concept of an "Imperial Army" seperate from Stormtroopers. Stormtroopers only, thank you (and those cool Darth Vader helmet Starfleet guards). It's no surprise they're underused- they're not seen in the films, so they don't have the visceral quality in a work of fiction like the image of a Stormtrooper does.
Posted: 2006-06-02 07:34am
by Lord Revan
PayBack wrote:OK, I thought as of the latest DVD release (which I haven't seen yet), that all the Stormtroopers were now (supposed to be) clones? At least that's what I read was the idea GL was wanting to portray by changing their voices etc.
in the DVD edition all character apart from Boba Fett still have their orginal voices
Posted: 2006-06-02 07:39am
by Cao Cao
In the commentaries for the Episode II DVD, Lucas does indicate that all Stormtroopers are clones and that some inherited the bang-your-head-on-a-bulkhead-gene from Jango Fett.
Also, the storyline of the Battlefront II 501st campaign states that all Stormtroopers are clones. But by the time of the Empire, only a fraction of them are Jango clones with a lot of other types filling the ranks.
Though I don't know how canon that is.
Posted: 2006-06-02 07:54am
by Mange
Cao Cao wrote:In the commentaries for the Episode II DVD, Lucas does indicate that all Stormtroopers are clones and that some inherited the bang-your-head-on-a-bulkhead-gene from Jango Fett.
Also, the storyline of the Battlefront II 501st campaign states that all Stormtroopers are clones. But by the time of the Empire, only a fraction of them are Jango clones with a lot of other types filling the ranks.
Though I don't know how canon that is.
George Lucas did say in an interview that:
George Lucas wrote:"The idea is that over time, there were new clone strains introduced, and then they even conscripted guys to be Storm Troopers. So it's not just purely clones: It started out as clones, but then it got diluted over the years as they found out they could shanghai guys [more cheaply] than they could build clones."
Filmforce IGN
Posted: 2006-06-02 10:04am
by PayBack
Thanks guys, lol for years I'd thought they'd changed the Stormies voices as well.
Posted: 2006-06-02 12:07pm
by Lazarus
Ever since I heard about the concept, I despised the concept of an "Imperial Army" seperate from Stormtroopers. Stormtroopers only, thank you (and those cool Darth Vader helmet Starfleet guards). It's no surprise they're underused- they're not seen in the films, so they don't have the visceral quality in a work of fiction like the image of a Stormtrooper does.
Interesting, I think the exact opposite. By making stormies the 'bog-standard' force of the Empire, you make them exactly that: bog standard. Stormtroopers are supposedly elite; if the entire Imperial infantry is stormtroopers, than they can't really be 'elite' can they? I think the whole 'Stormtroopers r teh uber, so its best if all Imp troops are stormies' is a silly fanboy attitude. They are supposedly indoctrinated from early youth, conditioned and trained to the peak of their abilities to be the Empire's BEST troops, not the Empire's ONLY troops.
I think the Thrawn trilogy portrayed the contrast between the Army troopers and Stormies quite well: in the attack on the Smugglers meeting, the Imp force has around 45 Imperial Army troops, and a half dozen stormtroopers. There are some instances in the EU where stormtroopers seem to be fulfilling the role of military police, for example on Halmad in Wraith Squadron, but I'd say this can be explained by the troops either simpyl wearing the armour, or them being real Stormies sent in due to an emergency. At the time, Halmad was about to cecede from the Empire, so I'd say this qualifies as an emergency.
Posted: 2006-06-02 01:18pm
by irishmick79
I think also that it should be noted that we mostly see stormtroopers protecting particularly sensitive Imperial installations or being the spearhead in key Imperial operations, such as searching for R2 and C3PO following the Tantive IV incident and leading the assault on Echo Base. Then again, Vader is also prominently involved in each of those operations, so maybe Stormtroopers are simply his personal Imperial Guard.
Posted: 2006-06-02 01:27pm
by VT-16
It's no surprise they're underused- they're not seen in the films, so they don't have the visceral quality in a work of fiction like the image of a Stormtrooper does.
I believe both General Veers and the AT-ST pilots in ROTJ are part of the Imperial army. The AT-AT pilots as well, IIRC. They only wear those Stromtrooper-lookalike suits for extra protection against the frost and cold.
Besides the Lucas quote above, there's also been a semi-confirmed rumor that some, not all, but some Stormtroopers getting the Jango-dubbing in the OT as well.
Posted: 2006-06-02 03:51pm
by Anguirus
Besides the Lucas quote above, there's also been a semi-confirmed rumor that some, not all, but some Stormtroopers getting the Jango-dubbing in the OT as well.
When is this supposed to happen, in the 3-D version?
Posted: 2006-06-02 03:53pm
by VT-16
Yeah, something like that. Along with CG Yoda in Ep. I.
Posted: 2006-06-02 03:57pm
by Spanky The Dolphin
I always assumed it was a proposed change that eventually was just simply dropped and will never happen.
Posted: 2006-06-02 05:51pm
by Cao Cao
irishmick79 wrote:I think also that it should be noted that we mostly see stormtroopers protecting particularly sensitive Imperial installations or being the spearhead in key Imperial operations, such as searching for R2 and C3PO following the Tantive IV incident and leading the assault on Echo Base. Then again, Vader is also prominently involved in each of those operations, so maybe Stormtroopers are simply his personal Imperial Guard.
We also see Stormtroopers on Tatooine riding Dewbacks.
Now I'm no expert, but I think you'd need some training to ride a giant lizard like that, and they were pretty well equipped to do so.
Obviously they're not carrying Dewbacks on Star Destroyers (one would hope, anyway) so I think that's pretty clear evidence of Stormtroopers being stationed long term on a backwater nowhere planet like Tatooine.
Posted: 2006-06-02 08:28pm
by joeblakk
Basically what everyone else has already said. Although when I first saw the movies, I got the impression that Stormtroopers were the whole shebang, the fact that they mention an Imperial Army kind of deflates that idea. In the movies, for the most part, we only see actions (boarding actions, fleet actions) in which an army would have no use. Traditionaly, at least here in RL, marines have always been essentially naval infantry. So it would be wholly appropriate to have STs on Imperial warships. Armies generally are used for heavier fighting, as they're equiped for it. Their purvue should be the garisoning of planets and/or battle spaces, and heavy infantry warfare. The STs should have all the duties and responsibilities associated with marines ie; shock troops, ship security, boarders etc.