"I always intended..."

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2002-12-30 09:28am

Am I the only who's as sick as an ebola victim of hearing these words from George Lucas?

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-30 10:15am

What did George Lucas always intend that has you sick of it? I don't think he's said it that many times at all.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2002-12-30 10:28am

Vympel wrote:What did George Lucas always intend that has you sick of it? I don't think he's said it that many times at all.

You name it. He always intended Leia to be Luke's sister. Always intended Vader to be Luke's father. Always intended to go back and insert a CG Jabba in ANH even though he had a fully costumed actor playing the part in the original scene. Always intended to make nine, make that twelve, make that six movies...

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-30 10:33am

Galvatron wrote: You name it. He always intended Leia to be Luke's sister.

And I take it you have insider information to contradict him?

Always intended Vader to be Luke's father.

See above. Please provide the insider information you have come across for this to be untrue.

Always intended to go back and insert a CG Jabba in ANH even though he had a fully costumed actor playing the part in the original scene.

Where'd he say that, because you by definition can't always intend to redo a scene when you didn't like the original scene and cut it from the film. What he did 'always intend' was to have a scene with Jabba in ANH- that's why he fucking shot it in the first place.

Always intended to make nine, make that twelve, make that six movies...

Bullshit. I defy you to find one place where Lucas said he was making nine movies, let alone twelve.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2002-12-30 11:42am

Vympel wrote:
Galvatron wrote:You name it. He always intended Leia to be Luke's sister.
And I take it you have insider information to contradict him?

Yes.

"...the ending was [originally] the coronation of Leia as the queen of what was left of her people, to take over the royal symbol. That meant she was then isolated from all of the rest and Luke went off then by himself. It was basically a kind of bittersweet ending. She's not his sister that dropped in to wrap up everything neatly. His sister was someone else way over on the other side of the galaxy and she wasn't going to show up until the next episode."
-Gary Kurtz

http://www.filmthreat.com/Interviews.as ... e.inc&Id=8

Vympel wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Always intended Vader to be Luke's father.
See above. Please provide the insider information you have come across for this to be untrue.

This is mainly based on the fact that early drafts of the original script had Darth Vader as a completely different character. Obi-Wan's dialogue in ANH is also pretty damning, regardless of who's "point of view" we're discussing.

Vympel wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Always intended to go back and insert a CG Jabba in ANH even though he had a fully costumed actor playing the part in the original scene.
Where'd he say that, because you by definition can't always intend to redo a scene when you didn't like the original scene and cut it from the film. What he did 'always intend' was to have a scene with Jabba in ANH- that's why he fucking shot it in the first place.

From starwars.com: "George intended to replace the actor optically with a puppet or stop-motion creature, but he ran out of time and money and dropped the shot altogether."

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iv/feat ... dexp2.html

Vympel wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Always intended to make nine, make that twelve, make that six movies...
Bullshit. I defy you to find one place where Lucas said he was making nine movies, let alone twelve.

Okay...

"STAR WARS is really three trilogies, nine films.....it won't be finished for probably another 20 years."
-George Lucas
L.A Reader - March 7, 1980

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=36

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-12-30 11:46am

"...the ending was [originally] the coronation of Leia as the queen of what was left of her people, to take over the royal symbol. That meant she was then isolated from all of the rest and Luke went off then by himself. It was basically a kind of bittersweet ending. She's not his sister that dropped in to wrap up everything neatly. His sister was someone else way over on the other side of the galaxy and she wasn't going to show up until the next episode."

That was before the revised draft.

This is mainly based on the fact that early drafts of the original script had Darth Vader as a completely different character. Obi-Wan's dialogue in ANH is also pretty damning, regardless of who's "point of view" we're discussing.

Early drafts also had Han as a green-skinned alien Jedi, Luke Skywalker as an Obi-Wan figure, Stardestroyers as two-man fighters, and Yavin as the homeworld of the Wookies. Scripts are revised. Deal with it.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-30 11:57am

Galvatron wrote:
"...the ending was [originally] the coronation of Leia as the queen of what was left of her people, to take over the royal symbol. That meant she was then isolated from all of the rest and Luke went off then by himself. It was basically a kind of bittersweet ending. She's not his sister that dropped in to wrap up everything neatly. His sister was someone else way over on the other side of the galaxy and she wasn't going to show up until the next episode."
-Gary Kurtz

http://www.filmthreat.com/Interviews.as ... e.inc&Id=8

See Hemlock.

From starwars.com: "George intended to replace the actor optically with a puppet or stop-motion creature, but he ran out of time and money and dropped the shot altogether."

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iv/feat ... dexp2.html

And this detracts what from I said how? Or did you expect him to use puppets and stop-motion animation in 1997 so that he could remain 100% literal so as to make sure the rabid wolves don't tear him apart- or, even better, 'always intend' to do CGI when it didn't exist in 1977?

Galvatron wrote:Okay...

"STAR WARS is really three trilogies, nine films.....it won't be finished for probably another 20 years."
-George Lucas
L.A Reader - March 7, 1980

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=36

And also from that page:

GL: Yes. The first script was just murder to write, just awful. It took me two years. Most of it was simply finding my way through that world. Now I'm much more emersed in the world. When I did the story for the second film, it was easier because it's really part of the Star Wars story. The first script was one of six original stories I had written in the form of two trilogies. After the success of Star Wars I added another trilogy. So now there are nine stories. The original two trilogies were concieved of as six films of which the first film was number four."

It sounds to me that Lucas is just returning to his original idea of six films, and that since the last trilogy was just an after thought he had, after the success of ANH, then maybe it just might be crap, and all the better that we dont see it.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2002-12-30 12:02pm

HemlockGrey wrote:That was before the revised draft.

Of what? TESB? ROTJ? Lucas would have us believe he had this all mapped out from the very beginning, before ANH.

HemlockGrey wrote:Early drafts also had Han as a green-skinned alien Jedi, Luke Skywalker as an Obi-Wan figure, Stardestroyers as two-man fighters, and Yavin as the homeworld of the Wookies. Scripts are revised. Deal with it.

Indeed. And Lucas keeps writing them and keeps revising them, despite the popular notion that it's already been thought out from the start to finish in his head. I don't buy it.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-30 12:14pm

Indeed. And Lucas keeps writing them and keeps revising them, despite the popular notion that it's already been thought out from the start to finish in his head. I don't buy it.

Go write a story, then see how many times you go back through and change this, and change that. You add a paragraph here and subtract a paragraph there. While the general story may be worked out in your head, thats how I do it anyway, you constantly change things to make it flow better and perhaps make it better than you originaly intended.

He apperently wrote a few stories until he came upon a general story line he wanted. After the SW story was more or less created, he continued to twick it. Its what writters do.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-30 01:56pm

Cry me a fucking river.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-30 03:25pm

I think Star Wars SE should be re-names Star Wars QFMM (Quest For More Money) coz thats what it's degraded into. There is an old saying if it's not broke don't fix it. It's the wee nit picks that make a sci-fi movie sci-fi

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-30 03:45pm

Galvatron wrote:Of what? TESB? ROTJ? Lucas would have us believe he had this all mapped out from the very beginning, before ANH.

Not like that would be the first time a writer had a story arc.

Galvatron wrote:Indeed. And Lucas keeps writing them and keeps revising them, despite the popular notion that it's already been thought out from the start to finish in his head. I don't buy it.

Fine you don't buy it. Since you not going to change your mind regardless then why don't you just shut up and stop wining.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2002-12-30 04:19pm

Knife wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Indeed. And Lucas keeps writing them and keeps revising them, despite the popular notion that it's already been thought out from the start to finish in his head. I don't buy it.
Go write a story, then see how many times you go back through and change this, and change that. You add a paragraph here and subtract a paragraph there. While the general story may be worked out in your head, thats how I do it anyway, you constantly change things to make it flow better and perhaps make it better than you originaly intended.

I don't doubt that the stories and screenplays for each episode were written that way. However, insofar as the "story arc" is concerned, too many changes were made to the characters, their relationships to each, the timing of certain key events, etc. along the way for the "original" arc to resemble what we have today.

Knife wrote:He apperently wrote a few stories until he came upon a general story line he wanted. After the SW story was more or less created, he continued to twick it. Its what writters do.

He did a little more than merely tweak it. According to Gary Kurtz, this was the original intention for the nine-episode arc before 1980...

EPISODE 1: Was to focus on the origins of the Jedi Knights and how they are initiated and trained
EPISODE 2: Introduction and development of Obi-Wan Kenobi
EPISODE 3: Introduction and life of Vader
EPISODE 4: There were seven different drafts of the film. At one point, they pursued buying the rights to Hidden Fortress because of the strong similarities. At one point, Luke was a female, Han was Luke's brother, Luke's father was the one in prison (interesting point for some debates) and the film featured 40 wookies
EPISODE 5: Once written, the screenplay of Empire is almost exactly what is seen on screen. The only cut scenes were those involving wampas in the rebel base (cut because of time and unsolved technical glitches) and about two minutes of Luke/Yoda Jedi training with no real dialog.
EPISODE 6: Leia was to be elected "Queen of her people" leaving her isolated. Han was to die. Luke confronted Vader and went on with his life alone. Leia was not to be Luke's sister.
EPISODE 7: Third trilogy was to focus on Luke's life as a Jedi, with very few details planned out.
EPISODE 8: Luke's sister (not Leia) appears from another part of the galaxy.
EPISODE 9: First appearance of the Emperor.

As you can see, the final product was very different from what was "always intended."

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=2624

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-30 04:33pm

It's true; he's lying through his teeth. There are different schools of thought on how we the fans should approach this, of course. Some feel we should just go with the flow and buy whatever Lucas is telling us. Others say it's revisionism, we should stick with the originals, and consider the new version to be a slightly different universe than the original trilogy.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2002-12-30 05:03pm

All I have to say is that if Lucas had always intended to do these things in the prequels, why didn't he nix all the EU stories by saying "they contradict what I intend to do"?

Exactly.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2002-12-30 07:12pm

AUNT BERU: Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his
father in him.

OWEN: That's what I'm afraid of.

Whether or not this is intended the same way I've interpreted this is open, it could just be a coincidence.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2002-12-30 08:32pm

Darth Wong wrote:It's true; he's lying through his teeth. There are different schools of thought on how we the fans should approach this, of course. Some feel we should just go with the flow and buy whatever Lucas is telling us. Others say it's revisionism, we should stick with the originals, and consider the new version to be a slightly different universe than the original trilogy.

I've heard he "always intended" for Greedo to shoot first. Which is bullshit. There was zero money or time constraints stopping him from allowing Greedo to shoot first originally.

But for me, I'm going to let him have the final say. Apparantly, when the OT is released on DVD, it will be the absolute "archive" version. His absolute vision. The LAST time he will tweak them. And I'll keep him to his word, and I rarely do this, as a fan. Example: Terminator 3, Alien 3 &4, Robocop 3, Highlander 2 and 3 do NOT exist for me.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2002-12-30 09:49pm

Lord Poe wrote: Terminator 3, Alien 3 &4, Robocop 3, Highlander 2 and 3 do NOT exist for me.

It's scary how similar we think.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-30 10:50pm

Hang on- where did he say that he "always intended" Greedo to shoot first?

I am at a loss to see where GL ever said he had every single little detail of his story worked out from day one- strawman.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-30 11:42pm

Lord Poe wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's true; he's lying through his teeth. There are different schools of thought on how we the fans should approach this, of course. Some feel we should just go with the flow and buy whatever Lucas is telling us. Others say it's revisionism, we should stick with the originals, and consider the new version to be a slightly different universe than the original trilogy.
I've heard he "always intended" for Greedo to shoot first. Which is bullshit. There was zero money or time constraints stopping him from allowing Greedo to shoot first originally.

But for me, I'm going to let him have the final say. Apparantly, when the OT is released on DVD, it will be the absolute "archive" version. His absolute vision. The LAST time he will tweak them. And I'll keep him to his word, and I rarely do this, as a fan. Example: Terminator 3, Alien 3 &4, Robocop 3, Highlander 2 and 3 do NOT exist for me.

There seems to be some controversy surrounding that. Can you provide a link saying that Lucas will tweak the original trilogy when it's released on DVD?

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-30 11:45pm

Durandal wrote: There seems to be some controversy surrounding that. Can you provide a link saying that Lucas will tweak the original trilogy when it's released on DVD?

I don't know if it's true- I've never seen a single reference provided for the claim.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2002-12-30 11:57pm

Vympel wrote:Hang on- where did he say that he "always intended" Greedo to shoot first?

Uh, gee, aren't all the changes in the special editions supposed to reflect his "original vision?" Wasn't that the whole friggin' point?

"To celebrate the twentieth anniversary of Star Wars in 1997, Lucas updated each film of the Trilogy to bring it closer to his original vision."
-Starwars.com

http://www.starwars.com/bio/georgelucas.html

Thus, the very fact that Lucas made the change at all is how we can conclude that he supposedly "always intended" for it to be that way.

Vympel wrote:I am at a loss to see where GL ever said he had every single little detail of his story worked out from day one- strawman.

You're right, that is a strawman; but it's one of your making because no one accused him of saying that.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-31 12:13am

Galvatron wrote:Uh, gee, aren't all the changes in the special editions supposed to reflect his "original vision?" Wasn't that the whole friggin' point?

"To celebrate the twentieth anniversary of Star Wars in 1997, Lucas updated each film of the Trilogy to bring it closer to his original vision."
-Starwars.com

http://www.starwars.com/bio/georgelucas.html

Thus, the very fact that Lucas made the change at all is how we can conclude that he supposedly "always intended" for it to be that way.

So when Spielberg changed the guns to walkie talkies in ET he must've always intended it to be that way? That's pretty lame- Lucas never said "I always intended for Greedo to shoot first" did he?

Vympel wrote:You're right, that is a strawman; but it's one of your making because no one accused him of saying that.

Actually that's precisely what you're saying- especially considering the laughable contention that because he replaced his plan to have an animatronic/stop-motion Jabba in ANH with a CGI Jabba, he obviously didn't "always intend" it. Just how far back do you want to go? If you go back to 1975 when he was trying to right drafts, of course the statement 'always intended' has no meaning whatsoever- that's not what any sane writer would mean when they said that they 'always intended' something.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2002-12-31 12:17am

Durandal wrote: There seems to be some controversy surrounding that. Can you provide a link saying that Lucas will tweak the original trilogy when it's released on DVD?

I couldn't find the best links- those with Natalie Portman and Jimmy Smits confirming that there was/will be shots of them inserted into the OT (Search TheForce.net) But I found this one:

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=11964

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-31 12:37am

This is highly ducious, at best.

TheForce.Net wrote: Episode 3 won't be the last time you'll see a lot of the main characters from the prequels in a Star Wars film. They'll also be in some of the sequels. Let me explain.

I believe it is called "The Archival Editions"...The re-release of all six films after a break following Episode 3. My source is good and I know this is happening, and frankly George Lucas is beyond a genius to think of this to make more money. Also this may explain some of the reasons episodes 4-6 haven't hit DVD yet. So here is some of the cool stuff you'll see.

During production on Episode 3 they will also be filming stuff for episodes 1, 4 , 5 and 6 to add into the Archival Editions.

Bail Organa senate scenes in Episode 1 to be shot added later to where the other Bail's lost scenes were supposed to be.

Also the last time you see Bail Organa won't be escorting Padme and baby onto a starship and blasting into the stars in E3. An older Bail will have some scenes added into Episode 4 prior to his planet being blown up by the Death Star.

Those being added into E4 will be a senate scene where The Emperor will make a cameo. Arguing with you guessed it ...Bail Organa... Plus a scene after the senate hearing where The Emperor contacts Vader and orders him to "Wipe out" Senator Organa's planet.

A holographic photo of Qui Gon will be added to Ben Kenobi's house in ANH. Also other little Jedi Tidbit's from the first 3 episodes will be added in his house. "Old friends long gone."

A scene on Coruscant in Episode 5 showing a demolished Jedi Temple. Cutting to the Emperor speaking with Vader about the son of Skywalker.

The Emperor never ordered the destruction of Alderaan. It was Tarkin's imperative to get the location of the Rebel base from Leia. In the canon radio drama, Vader even says that the Emperor should be consulted before doing anything like that. Granted, I don't really think he gave a shit one way or another, but he didn't order it.

When Lucas says that this is what he's doing (this "Archival Edition" thing), I'll believe it. Not before.