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One on one Vader vs Windu... I said Vader He said NO
One on one Ankin vs Windu.... I said Windu. He said agrees

I was saying that once Ankin became Vader ( Dark mask and helmet vader) He becomes more powerful then he was when he was Ankin/vader ( before the mask). So for me Vader would beat Windu.

My friends argument is this



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That's not true. After all the shit that happened, Vader lost a lot of his power. He was originally supposed to be more powerful than Sidious or Yoda, but Obi-Wan prevented that from happening. If Vader never would have been injured the way he was, he would have gone on to be more powerful than both Yoda and Palpatine. He wasn't that strong while we saw him in Episode 3, but he would have reached that point eventually.

It's like this: Windu was far more powerful than Anakin at that point. The only reason Windu lost was because he underestimated Anakin, didn't understand his emotions, and was pretty much blindsided. If it was a one-on-one thing, Windu would have won.

Vader was supposed to go on to be more powerful than both Yoda and Palpatine. Do you really think if Vader was as powerful as he was supposed to be that, by the start of episode 4, Palpatine would even be an issue? Vader would have overthrown Palpatine way before that.

what is your take on this.??

What's a Windo?

000 wrote:What's a Windo?

oops

Your friend fails to consider Vader's psyche. He hates himself. He hates what he's become. The only thing that gives him any meaning at all is serving the Emperor. Which only really changes when he finds out his son is alive. That they can "rule the galaxy as father an son" as he once wanted to rule with Padme.

I detest this sort of Anakin-wank. The idea that Vader is some sort of diminished weakling is absurd.

Cao Cao wrote:Your friend fails to consider Vader's psyche. He hates himself. He hates what he's become. The only thing that gives him any meaning at all is serving the Emperor. Which only really changes when he finds out his son is alive. That they can "rule the galaxy as father an son" as he once wanted to rule with Padme.

I detest this sort of Anakin-wank. The idea that Vader is some sort of diminished weakling is absurd.

The way I took it was always that the Vader suit allowed him greater strength, but at the cost of agility.

As a side note, I wonder if the fact that much of Vader is mechanical means that Jedi's could manipulate his mechanical parts potentially as we have seen that Jedi's in the prequels seem to have an easier time demolishing mechanical droids as opposed to humanoids. I suppose however that Vader's strong force powers might mitigate this if it is the case.

There's a fairly simple answer to this: in Shatterpoint, Windu faces a Dark Side Force-user (self-taught, no less) by the name of Kar Vastor. Vastor effortlessly kicked his ass. Later, Windu says that Vastor "wields power on the level of Yoda or Anakin" (paraphrasing slightly) - and this is in the middle of the Clone Wars, with Anakin's power still growing. Thus, one can reasonably conclude that Anakin was more powerful even then - and he only got stronger. Windu might potentially win against the Vader we see early in Dark Lord, who is unmotivated and hindered by crappy cybernetic parts, but the Vader we see by the end of the book has overcome both of these difficulties.

Mr. T wrote:As a side note, I wonder if the fact that much of Vader is mechanical means that Jedi's could manipulate his mechanical parts potentially as we have seen that Jedi's in the prequels seem to have an easier time demolishing mechanical droids as opposed to humanoids. I suppose however that Vader's strong force powers might mitigate this if it is the case.

We have seen multitudinous situations in which Jedi would have used the force to disable him by screwing with mechanical parts if they could. They did not. Therefore, they probably can't, for whatever reason.

And in the name of all that is good and holy, it's "would have"!

One's potential is determined by strength in the Force, but actually utilizing all of that potential can only be attained through one of two methods: years of training and discipline, OR by simply giving in to your anger and hate.

I believe prequel Anakin was actually quite a poor combatant, because his arrogance caused him to be indisciplined and made his training inefficient. His masive potential goes wasted much of the time. However, by letting go and tapping into the Dark Side, he was able to completely dominate and defeat even Darth Tyranus in mere seconds.

From the novel Dark Lord, it is apparent that after his injuries at Mustafar, his confidence had taken a terrible blow. It took him quite some time to recover his sureness in himself, after which he once again became capable of using the Dark Side of the Force to unleash the full potential of the prophesied Chosen One.

It would help to be more specific whether "Vader in the mask" refers to him immediately after the events of RotS.. or to Vader ten to fifteen years down the line. The former is unlikely to beat Windu, whereas with the latter, it's much harder to say. He's far more powerful, but the canonical ability of Vaapad to rechannel Dark Side aggression (as was done to Sidious) keeps an obvious answer from us.

Mr. T wrote:As a side note, I wonder if the fact that much of Vader is mechanical means that Jedi's could manipulate his mechanical parts potentially as we have seen that Jedi's in the prequels seem to have an easier time demolishing mechanical droids as opposed to humanoids. I suppose however that Vader's strong force powers might mitigate this if it is the case.

The reason why Jedi are more often seen telekinetically smashing droids with the Force is due to their unwillingness to do the same to living beings; apparently, the feeling of using the Force to harm flesh and bone is disturbing, perhaps traumatic, and leads down the path to the Dark Side.

So, really, mechanical prostheses are no more easily manipulated than organs composed of soft organic tissue. At the same time, it's no more viable, because a Force user presumably protects himself, either actively or passively, from that avenue of enemy attack.

Regardless of the biological or cybernetic nature of the target, Force telekinesis would only work by catching a Force user unprepared, or brutely overpowering the intended victim's abilities (hardly likely against Darth Vader).
In fact, on the RotS novelization, Obi-Wan causes Anakin's replacement hand to spring open and drop his lightsaber.. once. The logical reason he does not use this trick repeatedly is that he was unable to, after that first time.

We have seen multitudinous situations in which Jedi would have used the force to disable him by screwing with mechanical parts if they could. They did not. Therefore, they probably can't, for whatever reason.

They can, according to the novelization at least. Obi-Wan uses the force to mess with the servos in his arm once during the fight, just like he did with Grievous.

000 wrote:What's a Windo?

An opening, usually glass, in the wall of a building designed to allow the passage of light and air into an enclosed space.

Y'know, that thing Palpatine tossed Mace out of after Anakin sliced off his hand. Hence the posthumous renaming of 'Mace Window'

Base Delta Zero wrote:

We have seen multitudinous situations in which Jedi would have used the force to disable him by screwing with mechanical parts if they could. They did not. Therefore, they probably can't, for whatever reason.

They can, according to the novelization at least. Obi-Wan uses the force to mess with the servos in his arm once during the fight, just like he did with Grievous.

I addressed this in the last portion of my earlier post.

If anything, that experience on Mustafar would have armed Darth Vader with the knowledge and readiness to defend (and defend well, given his considerable might in the Force) against any such attempts in future.

vargo wrote:

000 wrote:What's a Windo?

oops

People are picking on "Windo" but not on "who would of won"? Typos I can accept, but using the wrong fucking word?

IIRC the reason Obi-Wan never used the hand trick more than once is because in retaliation to Obi-Wan messing with his hand Anakin in turn broke Obi-Wans arm.

The debate isn't that simple. There are many factors to consider. Which Vader would Mace be facing. As pointed out in another thread Vader was very clumsey when he was first suited. Several crappy Jedi where able to score hits against him in Dark Lord. If Mace fought Vader in that state Vader is toast. However towards the end of Dark Lord Vader over comes the psycological blocks that hindered him in his new suit and he owned the surviving Jedi.

Cykeisme wrote:
It would help to be more specific whether "Vader in the mask" refers to him immediately after the events of RotS.. or to Vader ten to fifteen years down the line. The former is unlikely to beat Windu, whereas with the latter, it's much harder to say. He's far more powerful, but the canonical ability of Vaapad to rechannel Dark Side aggression (as was done to Sidious) keeps an obvious answer from us.

Windu Vs Darth Vader( Vader from ep. 5 and 6 ).. Who will win?

my friend said Windu

Just look at him. He has fake arms, fake legs, and can't even breathe without his suit. He was supposed to be the most powerful Force user ever, but he's not, because he got so fucked up.

If you want to bring up the dumb shit, which is cannon for the Star Wars universe, than he really lost a lot of his power because of the Midichlorians he lost from his severed appendages.

I always thought he did become more powerful then Sidious.
I would pick Darth Vader (ep 5 and 6 ) to beat Windu.

Your friend has an... interesting, although wholly flawed way of looking at Vader's condition. Although he is weakened by the transference into the suit, recent canon and comments by GL indicate that this occurs because of the emotional tramua surrounding the events of his knighting into the Sith Order, not that fact that he lost a few body parts. I suspect that midiclorian concentrations matter cell by cell, and not throughout the body as a whole, so dismemberment would not matter (if, indeed, they have any effect on Force Powers at all, and are not simply indicators of it's presence).

Feil wrote:

Mr. T wrote:As a side note, I wonder if the fact that much of Vader is mechanical means that Jedi's could manipulate his mechanical parts potentially as we have seen that Jedi's in the prequels seem to have an easier time demolishing mechanical droids as opposed to humanoids. I suppose however that Vader's strong force powers might mitigate this if it is the case.

We have seen multitudinous situations in which Jedi would have used the force to disable him by screwing with mechanical parts if they could. They did not. Therefore, they probably can't, for whatever reason.

Or they're just retarded.

Noble Ire wrote:Your friend has an... interesting, although wholly flawed way of looking at Vader's condition. Although he is weakened by the transference into the suit, recent canon and comments by GL indicate that this occurs because of the emotional tramua surrounding the events of his knighting into the Sith Order, not that fact that he lost a few body parts. I suspect that midiclorian concentrations matter cell by cell, and not throughout the body as a whole, so dismemberment would not matter (if, indeed, they have any effect on Force Powers at all, and are not simply indicators of it's presence).

Yes, if the amount of body containing Midichlorians mattered at all as opposed to concentration, Yoda would be a pathetic weakling.

Lord pounder wrote:

IIRC the reason Obi-Wan never used the hand trick more than once is because in retaliation to Obi-Wan messing with his hand Anakin in turn broke Obi-Wans arm.

Anakin didn't break Obi-Wan's arm but nearly broke it

Obi-Wan also couldn't use the trick more than once on Grievous, because after he did it, the owner of the hand (Grievous/Anakin) would be prepared for a stunt like that