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Posted: **2006-06-19 06:53am**

As soon as Palpatine popped his cogs in RotJ it is apparent that the entire Galactic Empire fell apart overnight due to the fatal power vacuum incurred by the death of the Emperor. Losing the leader and then have the rest of regime implode for want of a new leader is not the sign of a stable or efficient government. And Palpatine must have mainly employed sycophantic crooks and not proper statesmen (althought there could've been notable exceptions).

And was the Galactic Empire run like a collection of mini-empires anyway, with Grand Moffs running their own territories like private fiefdoms? Doesn't that form of governing encourage warlordism? And Palpatine was seemingly encouraging violent rule if he dispensed with the old bureaucracy and handed over local galactic affairs to a band of greedy thugs. And if the Grand Moffs were running their own fiefdoms, how did they stay loyal to Coruscant? And how did the Imperial Navy and COMPNOR try and keep the Empire coherent if different sections if the galaxy was run by mini-tyrants?

Posted: **2006-06-19 08:13am**

Big Orange wrote:As soon as Palpatine popped his cogs in RotJ it is apparent that the entire Galactic Empire fell apart overnight due to the fatal power vacuum incurred by the death of the Emperor. Losing the leader and then have the rest of regime implode for want of a new leader is not the sign of a stable or efficient government. And Palpatine must have mainly employed sycophantic crooks and not proper statesmen (althought there could've been notable exceptions).

No it’s the sign if a violent and paranoid dictatorship, which is what Palpatine was. Interestingly Hitler followed a similar path, all power was invested in him and him alone, and all decisions were in theory made by him but in reality by his lieutenants, like Goering and Himmler. This led to the saying, "if the Fuhrer knew" as many of the Nazi supporters who found policies that they disliked, mostly economic rather than the genocide, were so infatuated with the supreme leader that they could not comprehend Hitler making such a bad decision.

Big Orange wrote:And was the Galactic Empire run like a collection of mini-empires anyway, with Grand Moffs running their own territories like private fiefdoms? Doesn't that form of governing encourage warlordism? And Palpatine was seemingly encouraging violent rule if he dispensed with the old bureaucracy and handed over local galactic affairs to a band of greedy thugs. And if the Grand Moffs were running their own fiefdoms, how did they stay loyal to Coruscant? And how did the Imperial Navy and COMPNOR try and keep the Empire coherent if different sections if the galaxy was run by mini-tyrants?

Yes that is my impression; the Moffs had direct control of everything in their sector of space, control of both civilian bureaucracy and the imperial forces deployed to them. The Han Solo trilogy of books raises a story of a Moff, apparently through force encouragement from Palpatine, getting ideas of launching a coup with his four dreadnaughts. It is implied that Palpatine created this idea in him to cut short his apparently promising political career and when his fleet is defeated by Solo he commits suicide rather than report his failure to the Emperor.
However it is not reasonable to expect the Imperial fleet to go along with a coup, all indications are that, at least the Storm trooper corps, are absolutely loyal to the Emperor, a rogue Moff may be able to tempt an ambitious Admiral to turn traitor but the fleet at large would remain loyal. Also I’d imagine the majority of the fleet was not under command of the Moffs but part of the overall fleet command so any traitor fleets would be vastly outnumbered.
Also another similarity to the Nazis is that the mini-tyrants all owned their power and position to the Emperor personally. This compares to most of the senior Nazis who owned Hitler their jobs and political powers, if they had attempted to remove Hitler they would not only have lost the public support that Hitler gave them but would have probably been blocked by the other lieutenants, who were either loyal or didn’t want their competitors for power getting ahead of them.
Furthermore I think their is some mention of the Death Stars being created as the ultimate security against a fleet mutiny, aswell as planetary revolt.

Posted: **2006-06-19 11:03am**

Sadly SW seems to be incapable of governing itself in a way that doesn't fall over face first at the first crisis. Palpatine's Empire was actually pretty stable, compared to the New Republic.

Posted: **2006-06-19 11:29am**

NecronLord wrote:Sadly SW seems to be incapable of governing itself in a way that doesn't fall over face first at the first crisis. Palpatine's Empire was actually pretty stable, compared to the New Republic.

But the Old Republic was even more stable again, with most of it's problems being associated with cultural and administrative stagnation. Also remember the main reason the Old Republic was getting so shitty in it's final decades was because the Sith conspirators were engineering it's destruction from behind the scenes so they could replace it with their Neo-Sith Empire.

Although I have not read much EU fluff, I get the impression the New Republic is bad because the Galactic Empire destroyed much of the bureaucratic infrastructure and permanently tarnished the public's faith in a reliable central government due to Palapatine's greedy, genocidal policies.

And much of the galaxy being fucked up after the collapse of the Galactic Empire is comparable to many former European colonies going to hell after the Europeans left.

Posted: **2006-06-19 12:43pm**

But the Old Republic was even more stable again

It was stable on the outside, but rotten on the inside. That's what the epigraph to ANH novellization says.

Posted: **2006-06-19 01:12pm**

Big Orange wrote:But the Old Republic was even more stable again,

Not really. It got in a spasm when a shipping company blockaded a planet, and started reorganising its own government. We only know of one crisis in the late Old Republic (Palpatine's machinations), and its response to that was to eagerly start sucking dictator cock.

Posted: **2006-06-19 03:45pm**

The problem with Palpatine's government was that, since the regional governors were political appointees, they were loyal to him. Essentially, Palpatine took the Republic's loyalty to the institution of democracy, and its loyalty to the office of Chancellor, and transferred it to loyalty to himself, the person. The problem is that when he died, all of his appointees suddenly had nobody to be loyal to, and nobody to hold them accountable; this is not very conducive to unity, to say the least. Of course, Palpatine never intended to die, and probably treated this issue of loyalty as academic; but, since he did die, it nicely explains the fragmentation of the Empire.

One could consider this in analogy to the United States' government: the people are still generally loyal to the institution of democracy in the United States, which is embodied by the Constitution; we're not loyal to George Bush, but rather to the President; I'm not loyal to Mike Pence, but rather to the House of Representatives. One might argue that hardcore liberals and conservatives are loyal to their parties rather than the government; this is one of the dangers of permitting institutions, like political parties, to grow up around the government.

Posted: **2006-06-19 04:19pm**

Surlethe wrote:The problem with Palpatine's government was that, since the regional governors were political appointees, they were loyal to him. Essentially, Palpatine took the Republic's loyalty to the institution of democracy, and its loyalty to the office of Chancellor, and transferred it to loyalty to himself, the person. The problem is that when he died, all of his appointees suddenly had nobody to be loyal to, and nobody to hold them accountable; this is not very conducive to unity, to say the least. Of course, Palpatine never intended to die, and probably treated this issue of loyalty as academic; but, since he did die, it nicely explains the fragmentation of the Empire.

Palpatine intended for the Empire to fall apart in his absence. His soul travelled to Byss (a long journey) and he was reborn there in a clone body. If he had had a true heir, they would've assumed all the powers of the Empire. That means, potentially, upon Palpatine's return, they could've given him a hearty fuck you and usurped the whole shebang.

As a secondary issue, the power vacuum created by his 'death' allowed him to have the weak be culled without any real action on his part. The more powerful warlords, people with some worth to them that Palpatine would actually want in his Empire, killed the weak and took their assets.

As a result of all this he was able to contact all of the surviving warlords individually now, because they answered to no one, and to test whether or not they were truly loyal to their Emporer; he either reaquired their forces through loyalty or force. He gathered up all of those armies--along with the formidable one he had stationed at Byss before ROTJ--and was able to launch a surprise attack and defeat the NR in quick fashion, as seen in the Dark Empire series.

So while Palpatine never intended to die--leastways, not as he did, aboard the Death Star--he was fully prepared for that scenario. The Empire's fragmentation, due to their loyalty to him and only him, was all a part of his plan, and therefore not actually a 'problem,' per se.

Posted: **2006-06-19 04:23pm**

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:So while Palpatine never intended to die--leastways, not as he did, aboard the Death Star--he was fully prepared for that scenario. The Empire's fragmentation, due to their loyalty to him and only him, was all a part of his plan, and therefore not actually a 'problem,' per se.

Okay, that makes sense. I'm not familiar with the EU, but this pretty much confirms my main point: that Palpatine gathered loyalty to himself rather than his office. Thanks for the correction regarding his intentions post-death.

Posted: **2006-06-19 05:01pm**

NecronLord wrote:
Big Orange wrote:But the Old Republic was even more stable again,
Not really. It got in a spasm when a shipping company blockaded a planet, and started reorganising its own government. We only know of one crisis in the late Old Republic (Palpatine's machinations), and its response to that was to eagerly start sucking dictator cock.

Of course, the OR of earlier eras (before the Ruusan Reformation of 1,000 BBY) was very stable, lasting for 24,000 years, despite having to cope with innumerable wars and Sith power grabs. Indeed, it only seems like it started going down hill after said Reformation, a reaction to the devestating final Sith war; the Jedi were removed from the military role they had held since virtually their inception and allowed to largely isolate themselves from elements of the government that could have benefitted from their assistance. At the same time, the rest of the Republic seemed to have decentralized the authority of the Senate, essentially turning it into a toothless confederacy. Evidently, the NR was based around the ideals of the latter institution, and thus it was doomed to fail.

Posted: **2006-06-19 09:53pm**

You know, it says in the NEC that during the Ruusan Reformation the Senate gained more power than they used to have and that the office of the Supreme Chancellor was dramatically weakened.

Fast forward 1000 years: The Senate is corrupt, and the Supreme Chancellor is so useless that he can't even resolve a small dispute in some Mid Rim world no one really cares about. Enter Palpatine, a kind but virtuous Senator that despises corruption in all forms. After becoming Supreme Chancellor himself, he slowly is given more power by the Senate and promising to fix the Republic's problems in return. If anything, Palpatine's rise to power was sort of a return to the Good Ol' Days (tm).

Posted: **2006-06-19 10:59pm**

Also I think we have to look at how many high ranking officers and officials who may of had the power to hold together the Empire if they were not present on the second death star at the time of its destruction.

Posted: **2006-06-20 07:29am**

Of course, the OR of earlier eras (before the Ruusan Reformation of 1,000 BBY) was very stable, lasting for 24,000 years, despite having to cope with innumerable wars and Sith power grabs. Indeed, it only seems like it started going down hill after said Reformation, a reaction to the devestating final Sith war; the Jedi were removed from the military role

So it was only the strength of their foes that held the republic together?, when these foes were annhilated, or atleast seen to be annhilated as with the Sith the reason for systems to belong to the Republic and submit to the corruption and incompetance was removed, ie the fear of getting conquered.
Also was the Republic that stable pre reform? Massively numerically inferior forces like the Sith Empire and Mandalorians were capable of kicking the shit out of the Republic and pushing it to destruction in the KOTOR era.

Posted: **2006-06-20 08:06am**

Also, I suspect Palpatine set up his government so that factions would arrive. Power mongers would hvae to spend their resources protecting their own, playing one off against the other for his personal benefit, maintaining it so that no one became too powerful.

Posted: **2006-06-20 09:26am**

Darth Tanner wrote: Also was the Republic that stable pre reform? Massively numerically inferior forces like the Sith Empire and Mandalorians were capable of kicking the shit out of the Republic and pushing it to destruction in the KOTOR era.

The Republic faced three major wars inside half a century - Exar Kun's Sith, the Mandalorians, and then Revan's Sith - followed by the systematic extermination of the Jedi Order by Sith assassins reducing it to a point where the galaxy at large believed the Exile to be the only surviving Jedi. Is it really any wonder that the government began to wobble under those circumstances?

It should be remembered, also, that Revan and many of his officers were traitors who knew exactly where to hit the Republic to inflict maximum damage.

Posted: **2006-06-20 11:49am**

Shadowtraveler wrote:You know, it says in the NEC that during the Ruusan Reformation the Senate gained more power than they used to have and that the office of the Supreme Chancellor was dramatically weakened.

Fast forward 1000 years: The Senate is corrupt, and the Supreme Chancellor is so useless that he can't even resolve a small dispute in some Mid Rim world no one really cares about. Enter Palpatine, a kind but virtuous Senator that despises corruption in all forms. After becoming Supreme Chancellor himself, he slowly is given more power by the Senate and promising to fix the Republic's problems in return. If anything, Palpatine's rise to power was sort of a return to the Good Ol' Days (tm).

Hm, I must have remembered that bit incorrectly. Nevertheless, the Ruusan Reformation did reduce the power of the Republican government, crippling its military effectiveness and removing much of the power of the executive, allowing squabbles and divergent interests in the senate to grow unchecked and allow for corruption more easily, and meaning that even small military threats were enough to throw everyone into panic mode.

Actually, considering this, the old Old Republic seemed to be more of a elective, marginally checked dictatorship than an actual republic, and yet it worked better than any other galactic government in history, excepting the Empire while Palpatine was alive. Perhaps, considering the sheer scale and diversity of the galaxy, the only type of government that really could work was some form of autocracy.

Posted: **2006-06-21 12:53am**

Exactly, and it certainly didn't hurt that the Supreme Chancellors of old could talk to the Jedi for advise, who were definately a more active force back then.

Posted: **2006-06-23 07:23pm**

But the Sith conspirators were subverting the Republic's government and caused most of the Republic's problems like they always had for millennia; why blame a democratic government? The Republic would've been much more stable if there were no Sith supervillains trying to attack it from within (after failing to attack the Republic from the outside, earlier on in the galaxy's history).

The Trade Federation were just Sith puppets and their petty shipping blockade merely showed that the current Supreme Chancellor had no balls, and could not cut through the convoluted red tape of an incomprehensibly vast galaxy spanning administration. Apart from the minor upset of Naboo, the rest of the galaxy at seemed relatively stable before Palpatine seized control and fucked things up horribly for everyone for the next 50+ years.

Posted: **2006-06-23 07:28pm**

in ANH, Tarkin comes in and says that the Senate has been disolved perminatally. its speculation but it might imply that the senate had been suspended before and it didn't work out because the goveners didn't have enough control yet.

Posted: **2006-06-23 07:33pm**

Big Orange wrote:But the Sith conspirators were subverting the Republic's government and caused most of the Republic's problems like they always had for millennia; why blame a democratic government? The Republic would've been much more stable if there were no Sith supervillains trying to attack it from within (after failing to attack the Republic from outside, earlier on in the galaxy's history).

You can't really blame the Sith, at least not directly. With the Ruusan Reformation, both the Jedi and the Republic essentially screwed themselves over, rendering each largely incapable of handling any sort of armed threat without drastically undermining their operating structure. The Sith seem to have just stood by, watching and working on techniques to cloud Jedi perception; Palpatine, as far as is known, was the first and last Sith to attempt to execute Darth Bane's "Final Solution".

The Trade Federation were just Sith puppets and their petty shipping blockade merely showed that the current Supreme Chancellor had no balls, and could not cut through the convoluted red tape of an incomprehensibly vast galaxy spanning administration. Apart from the minor upset of Naboo, the rest of the galaxy at seemed relatively stable before Palpatine seized control and fucked things up horribly for everyone for the next 50+ years.

The Republic was lucky not to be faced with another serious threat for nearly a thousand years, because they couldn't handle one. As the Stark Hyperspace War (a less than a decade before TPM), what was really a glorified police action and handled in the end as easily set the Senate a flame and allowed corporate interest groups like the TF to exert undo influence on the government. The Republic had barely any military apparatus to keep the peace, will private groups built ever larger fleets and armies of war machines, top politicians, even the Supreme Chancellor himself succumbed more and more to corruption, competing interests brought both the Legislative and Judiciary branches to a standstill; the Republic was already rotting when Palpatine took the stage, he merely guided its fall.

Posted: **2006-06-23 08:12pm**

Isolder74 wrote:in ANH, Tarkin comes in and says that the Senate has been disolved perminatally. its speculation but it might imply that the senate had been suspended before and it didn't work out because the goveners didn't have enough control yet.

The novelization (and subsequently the Imperial Sourcebook) explain that Tarkin was talking about the de facto permanent dissolution of the Senate. Officially, the Senate was not abolished, merely prorogued for the duration of the emergency. The rub, as they say, lay in the fact that the state of emergency was never meant to be lifted.

Posted: **2006-06-24 02:09am**

Big Orange wrote:But the Sith conspirators were subverting the Republic's government and caused most of the Republic's problems like they always had for millennia; why blame a democratic government? The Republic would've been much more stable if there were no Sith supervillains trying to attack it from within (after failing to attack the Republic from the outside, earlier on in the galaxy's history).

The Trade Federation were just Sith puppets and their petty shipping blockade merely showed that the current Supreme Chancellor had no balls, and could not cut through the convoluted red tape of an incomprehensibly vast galaxy spanning administration. Apart from the minor upset of Naboo, the rest of the galaxy at seemed relatively stable before Palpatine seized control and fucked things up horribly for everyone for the next 50+ years.

I won't deny the Sith did influence the Republic in their own subtle ways, but it seems like they really didn't do all that much. If anything, they merely guided the inevitable death spiral to suit their own interests.

Posted: **2006-06-26 07:48am**

So there's common consent that the Jedi Order cutting off full contanct with the Republic's administration was what doomed the Republic in the long run? Without Jedi policing, the ranks of the bureaucrats and senators were slowly infiltrated by the Sith Lords, Sith agents and their allies; is that right?

Posted: **2006-06-26 08:01am**

Big Orange wrote:So there's common consent that the Jedi Order cutting off full contanct with the Republic's administration was what doomed the Republic in the long run? Without Jedi policing, the ranks of the bureaucrats and senators were slowly infiltrated by the Sith Lords, Sith agents and their allies; is that right?

The Jedi being cut off PERIOD was what caused the problems. There is actualy a rather good analysis of this by Luke in 'Destinys Way'. Where is it....

Cal's eyes brightened. "I think you're getting somewhere," he said. "But there are still problems with that scenario. Either they're going to say that you're secretly controlling me and I'm your puppet, or they're going to claim you're a bunch of superpowered clandestine agents whom I'm going to use to subvert the constitution. Probably Fyor will manage to say both things at once." He sighed. "Unfortunately, we're stuck with a constitutional, representative, multibranched government, heavily scrutinized by a self-interested media. We're inefficient, divided, and prey to conflicting and contradictory interests - even, and perhaps especially, in moments of crisis."

Triebakk gave a low moan.

Luke gave Triebakk a sharp look. "No," he said. "Never even think of sympathizing with Palpatine."

Triebakk conceded with a graceful bow of his shaggy head.

But even as he spoke to Triebakk, Cal's words seemed to echo for a long moment in Luke's mind. Constitutional, representative, multibranched ... As opposed to what? he wondered. Elite, clandestine, autocratic, threat to the constitution.

The old Jedi had personified the rule of order and the will of the state. But they were also secretive, and removed from the people and their representatives. Their link to the outside was through the Supreme Chancellor, and once a malevolent figure like Palpatine became Chancellor, with his disciple among the Jedi, the Jedi were cut off by the secret enemy, isolated, and destroyed.

The Jedi should never be so isolated again.

He became aware that the others were staring at him.

"Another message from the beyond?" Mara asked.

Luke smiled. "No. At least I don't think so."

"What, then?"
"I think I've worked out how to reestablish the Jedi Council in a way that will disarm Fyor Rodan."

Cal leaned forward. "Tell," he said.

"I had a nagging feeling when I was listening to Fyor Rodan yesterday," Luke began. "The nagging feeling I had," he continued, "was that Rodan was right, in a way. We are doing the jobs that other people are being paid to do. We are asking the government for privileges, and we're asking a great deal of people to believe that we ask in all humility and mean no harm - yet all they have to do is remember Darth Vader, and they'll suspect the contrary."

"And your solution?" Cal looked deeply intrigued.

"Suppose the council isn't composed entirely of Jedi," Luke said. "We can have one member from each of the government branches that might feel threatened by us. Say we have a Senator chosen by the Senate. Someone from the Defense Force. Another representative from the Ministry of State, and another from the Justice Council to make certain we stay within the law. Rodan would have a hard time convincing people that all those representatives were Jedi puppets. Especially if the Chief of State himself was on the council as well."

"The Chief of State or his ambassador," Cal said. "The Chief of State is a busy person."

"Conceded."

Cal frowned as he considered the matter. "You've just given me quite a list. That's five non-Jedi on the Jedi Council."

"Six," Luke corrected, on second thought. "We'd also need someone from the Intelligence division."

"And how many Jedi?" Cal asked. "If we make the council too large, we'll start having the same problems as the Senate—it'll be too big to be effective."

"Six Jedi," Luke said. "That will bring the government representatives into balance with the Jedi."

Cal's long face grew abstract as he considered the implications of the new idea. "That's giving up a lot of the traditional Jedi power," he said.

"It's power we've already lost," Luke said. "We lost it when the old Jedi fell."
Cal's eyes focused, searching Luke's face. "You're sure? You're sure that you're comfortable departing this far from Jedi tradition?"

Luke felt an utter certainty in his answer. "On Ithor, I surrendered the guardianship of the Jedi tradition. I'm content with the idea."

Triebakk gave a triumphant roar.

"And you'd be welcome as the first Senatorial representative," Luke replied. "But the Senate would still have to vote on your nomination."

"And there would have to be security and background checks and so on." Cal continued to think out loud.

Triebakk snarled a reference to the late Viqi Shesh.

Luke essentialy neetly comes up with a way to better integrate the Jedi into the New Republic, a method which is more or less completly ignored in every EU book since, even if the 'High Council' is mentioned in passing. Hell the whole Dark Nest series (spits) completly ignores the idea to create the whole Jedi/GA friction.

Posted: **2006-06-26 03:57pm**

The existence of the Jedi Order seems to have allowed the Old Republic the luxury of being politically retarded for its entire history. They got away with a unicameral legislature with no independent executive and no apparent checks on the ability of the Senate to amend the constitution because the Jedi were always there to keep the system from disintegrating or becoming a dictatorship. Take them out of the picture and the whole house of cards collapses in the slightest breeze; the New Republic didn't work because it was the same unstable system without the Jedi to hold it together.

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Was the Imperial Governement Always in Chaos?

Was the Imperial Governement Always in Chaos?