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Can we infer from Ben's line in ANH that the Empire had long-range fighters that were visibly distinct from regular TIEs? Could Vader's TIE have simply been one of these heavier, long-range models rather than some unique prototype? I'm assuming, of course, that TIE interceptors and bombers don't qualify as such since they supposedly lack hyperdrives...

Just thinking outside the box (and strictly canon) again.

The XG-1 Starwing (the "Assault Gunboat" from the TIE Fighter game) was a hyperdrive-capable Imperial starfighter. They were no where as numerous as TIEs, but 5 of them were deployed on every ISD.

While the movies don't explain what Vader's TIE Advanced x1 is, the EU does. And since they're not contradicted, Vader's TIE was just a limited production prototype.

The only Imperial "fighter" with a hyperdrive that was in use by that period that I can think of would be the Skipray Blastboat, which strictly speaking is not a fighter, but is small enough that it might be confused with one.

Of course, the Empire could have also used variations of civilian vessels, like the cloakshape, for long-range scouting purposes.

Wait, wasn't there the Cynus Assault Gunboat with a hyperdrive?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Wait, wasn't there the Cynus Assault Gunboat with a hyperdrive?

Yes, that's the XG-1 Starwing that I mentioned.

From the prequels we know that a ship of that size would need a ring-hyperdrive to be 'long range'. Vaders TIE is probably the smallest you can get a jump-fighter.

Stark wrote:From the prequels we know that a ship of that size would need a ring-hyperdrive to be 'long range'. Vaders TIE is probably the smallest you can get a jump-fighter.

A-wings have hyperdrives, don't they?

Ask the EU. A-wings aren't as small as they look, though: they're quite fat and thick, and many people mistake them for snowspeeder-size. Also of note is jump range - the Jedi ring lets you cross the galaxy, go somewhere else, then return across the galaxy. I doubt an A-wing has enough fuel for that.

EDIT - Actually, less the wings, Vaders TIE is similar in size to an A-wing. However, we know from the prequels that the radiators are necessary for true high-performance fighters, so there are obviously some range/endurance tradeoffs for the A-wings high speed.

Stark wrote:Ask the EU.

Ask Lucas.
There are A-Wings seen jumping into the Endor system with the rest of the Rebel fleet in ROTJ.

Read the damn post, dumbass: I discuss the range of the Awing. How can I do that if I think it doesn't have a hyperdrive? CHRIST.

PS the EU sucks and you lose because you love it. Have fun watching it get worse!

There's also the Tie Advanced and Defenders from the X-Wing series of games.

Stark wrote:Read the damn post, dumbass: I discuss the range of the Awing. How can I do that if I think it doesn't have a hyperdrive? CHRIST.

PS the EU sucks and you lose because you love it. Have fun watching it get worse!

Well, the A-wing jumped from Sullust or something? How far is Sullust from Endor?

.... and so? Is there even a consistent layout for the TIE-D yet, or are they still all over the place? One minute it's a ball with three wings, then it's a ball with a small rear section with three wings, then it's a log with three wings... oh my.

Am I the only person who worked out he clearly wanted a movies-only discussion?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Well, the A-wing jumped from Sullust or something? How far is Sullust from Endor?

OH MY FUCKING GOD. What the FUCK do you think I was talking about? The OTHER jump the A-wing made? JESUS H CHRIST people, keep up!

In any case, it was 'seconds' or 'moments' away, so clearly not a long-range jump. But hey, EU farts are here, so doubtless I'll be told some WEG book somewhere says the Awing is superfast in hyperspace and long range too!

Stark wrote:Am I the only person who worked out he clearly wanted a movies-only discussion?

Apparently.

Galvatron wrote:Can we infer from Ben's line in ANH that the Empire had long-range fighters that were visibly distinct from regular TIEs? Could Vader's TIE have simply been one of these heavier, long-range fighters rather than some unique prototype? I'm assuming, of course, that TIE interceptors and bombers don't qualify as long-range craft since they supposedly lack hyperdrives...

Just thinking outside the box (and strictly canon) again.

The idea that Vader's TIE was some unique prototype is one I'm not entirely sure I follow. The problem is we only see it once in the films, and never again. But why would it be the only one? And if it WAS a prototype, why was Vader of all people flying it? Is he a test pilot as well as a Sith Lord? Is this another EUism?

Even here the EU gave us the TIE Avenger. (then, impossibly, gave us the TIE Defender in the same timeframe - a fighter that's better in every way conceivable to everything anyone could ever hope to field. It has every goddamn doodad including the kitchen sink)

I don't have a problem with your idea that TIE Avengers/Advanced/Vader's Hotrod was meant to be the long-range fighters while TIE Fighters and so on were the short range fighters. Another question here: how would Ben the Hermit know what fighter craft the Empire fields? Does SW have a globalsecurity.org style holonet site? Or could he tell because TIE Fighters are similar in size to the kind of craft he himself flew during the Clone Wars? I'd lean towards the latter myself.

Galvatron wrote:

Stark wrote:Am I the only person who worked out he clearly wanted a movies-only discussion?

Apparently.

I got it too, man.

Stark wrote:Read the damn post, dumbass: I discuss the range of the Awing. How can I do that if I think it doesn't have a hyperdrive? CHRIST.

Despite being a belligerent cock most of the time, you have shown the capability to accept the EU as official, even if you don't like a lot of it. Thus, the phrase "Ask the EU" could very well imply you did not like the concept, but nevertheless recognized that it was real, especially considering the content of Galvatron's post, which did not mention how or to what extent an A-Wing might have hyperdrive, merely whether or not it had one at all. Mine was a prefectly valid interpritation, especially considering your past posting pattern (complaining about an element of the EU, and then trying to rationalize it or retecon it away).

Stark wrote:PS the EU sucks and you lose because you love it. Have fun watching it get worse!

You offend me, sir. I have stated, to you specifically no less, that I no longer "love" the EU; Karen Traviss and LFL's recent antics have seen to that. I still enjoy certain elements of it, but I wont ever rush to its defense on principle again, or buy a product simply because it bears the SW label. I will, however, continue to address your vitrol when I feel it is misplaced.

Noble Ire wrote:

Stark wrote:PS the EU sucks and you lose because you love it. Have fun watching it get worse!

You offend me, sir.

Gentlemen, will it be pistols for two, tea for one?

*snickers*

Stofsk wrote:

Noble Ire wrote:

Stark wrote:PS the EU sucks and you lose because you love it. Have fun watching it get worse!

You offend me, sir.

Gentlemen, will it be pistols for two, tea for one?

*snickers*

I would prefer swords, actually.

I don't remember any A-wings jumping into hyperspace. I only saw the Falcon, B, X and Y-wings. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I figured that if Ben went to the trouble of pointing out that the TIE was a short-range fighter, then long-range Imperial fighters were common enough that he felt the need to specify which kind of fighter they were chasing.

Notice how EU hacks, because of their inability to (a) read and (b) use simple logic end up making things in the GFFA far more convoluted than a spinoff from a Saturday matinee movie should be?

Any normal person, upon hearing Ben's line, would infer that the Empire has long-range fighters. Further evidence is that Vader escaped Yavin with no other Imperial craft in sight.

Normal person's conclusion: Vader's fighter had a longer range, which is to say, a hyperdrive.

EU hack's conclusion: Vader's fighter was a custom job. It is the only one with a hyperdrive in the Imperial arsenal.

Elfdart's conclusion: The EU sucks.

Ackbar's view of the Rebel fleet immediately after it exits hyperspace. Note the four A-Wings in formation at the bottom of the viewport.
(Shamelessly borrowed from Dr. Saxton's Technical Commentaries)

Stofsk wrote:The idea that Vader's TIE was some unique prototype is one I'm not entirely sure I follow. The problem is we only see it once in the films, and never again. But why would it be the only one?

Precisely. It's a good thing Han said "there are a lot of command ships" in ROTJ. Otherwise, the EU would probably explain away the Executor as a "unique prototype" as well.

Stofsk wrote:And if it WAS a prototype, why was Vader of all people flying it? Is he a test pilot as well as a Sith Lord? Is this another EUism?

Let's not forget that the EU also says it was "developed to Darth Vader's specifications."

Vader sure is versatile.

Stofsk wrote:Even here the EU gave us the TIE Avenger. (then, impossibly, gave us the TIE Defender in the same timeframe - a fighter that's better in every way conceivable to everything anyone could ever hope to field. It has every goddamn doodad including the kitchen sink)

I loved those fighters back when I played the games, but now I see them as the utterly wanked-out pieces of EU garbage that they are.

Stofsk wrote:I don't have a problem with your idea that TIE Avengers/Advanced/Vader's Hotrod was meant to be the long-range fighters while TIE Fighters and so on were the short range fighters.

Right on. How do you feel about "sandtroopers?"

Stofsk wrote:Another question here: how would Ben the Hermit know what fighter craft the Empire fields? Does SW have a globalsecurity.org style holonet site? Or could he tell because TIE Fighters are similar in size to the kind of craft he himself flew during the Clone Wars? I'd lean towards the latter myself.

Without even invoking the EU or prequels, his experience as a military general and war veteran should explain his familiarity with such things well enough.

Galvatron wrote:

Stofsk wrote:And if it WAS a prototype, why was Vader of all people flying it? Is he a test pilot as well as a Sith Lord? Is this another EUism?

Let's not forget that the EU also says it was "developed to Darth Vader's specifications."

Vader sure is versatile.

In TPM Anakin managed to construct a droid and the equivalent of a race car, they established early on that he's quite gifted with machinery. He built both from spare parts, or that's the impression I get, but the fact is that he did this when he was seven is pretty impressive.

I assume that with that in mind, and the modifications he supposedly made to his personal Jedi fighter (I think I remember reading that somewhere), he's got some experience with starfighter engineering.

Noble Ire wrote:Despite being a belligerent cock most of the time, you have shown the capability to accept the EU as official, even if you don't like a lot of it. Thus, the phrase "Ask the EU" could very well imply you did not like the concept, but nevertheless recognized that it was real, especially considering the content of Galvatron's post, which did not mention how or to what extent an A-Wing might have hyperdrive, merely whether or not it had one at all. Mine was a prefectly valid interpritation, especially considering your past posting pattern (complaining about an element of the EU, and then trying to rationalize it or retecon it away).

Well this IS a movie-only thread. So nyah! I won't bore you with the SDN standard pretentious 'lolz i will post the defination of joke because you didn't get a joke, lol' reply because I respect you.

Noble Ire wrote:You offend me, sir. I have stated, to you specifically no less, that I no longer "love" the EU; Karen Traviss and LFL's recent antics have seen to that. I still enjoy certain elements of it, but I wont ever rush to its defense on principle again, or buy a product simply because it bears the SW label. I will, however, continue to address your vitrol when I feel it is misplaced.

That was my whole facetious point! The EU is too crap even for the fans these days. Hence my revelling in a movies-only thread, and your fall from EU grace is really my barometer of EU crap. So if the Ire goes blue, the EU is irretrivbaly crap, etc etc.

How bout THIS movie-only speculation? Vader drives a special TIE. Vader has previously modded-up his old Jedi fighter. So he's clearly modded-up his TIE too (in his youth he jimmied fighters to have more speed and guns than usual, escewing shields since he doesn't need them). So the TIE he drives may well be a model that he liked then improved on with little changes like he always does.

Crom wrote:In TPM Anakin managed to construct a droid and the equivalent of a race car, they established early on that he's quite gifted with machinery. He built both from spare parts, or that's the impression I get, but the fact is that he did this when he was seven is pretty impressive.

I assume that with that in mind, and the modifications he supposedly made to his personal Jedi fighter (I think I remember reading that somewhere), he's got some experience with starfighter engineering.

There's nothing wrong in assuming that Vader's personal TIE was modified by himself, but that it was the only prototype. If TIE Avengers were more common then it's a better assumption to make, but if there is only ONE of the goddamn things then it strikes of silliness.

I'm waiting for someone like Wicked Pilot to chime in and say how idiotic it is that the pilot is also the one who's making the modifications himself, rather than give suggestions to the engineers. He flies it, they put it back together. Granted he may have been gifted in his youth, but he also had a lot more time back then, and being a Sith Lord is more than likely a 24/7 occupation. Better let the eggheads tinker with the craft, and if they don't listen to his recommendations then it's a one-way trip to chokesville.