Worst SW brain bug

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-01 02:26am

Because a lot of younger fans are getting into the EU and comics without realizing how ridiculous some of these concepts actually are..

Thanks to Michael Stackpole we have some fairly well written novels that don't get caught up in cliche battles against "Dark Jedi", unfortunately we have perpetuated a myth that 12 X-Wings with decent pilots can wipe out large Capital Ships and pretty much do as they damn well please, when this is in fact, not the case.

The Yhuuzhan Vong's biotechnology, anyone who has been on this board for for more than a couple of weeks has probably noticed a general disdain for people spouting nonsense in regards to the "almighty biotech". It my personal opinion that anything biological isn't even technology in a true sense.

Admiral Thrawn is one of the hands down coolest characters we have ever seen. However this has led some people to think that Thrawn's genius would work in any situation and that given an escape pod, three twinkies, and a box of rubber bands he could wipe out enemy fleets. This is not the case, Thrawn is a genius true but he does not have omnipotent mental faculties, which is evident by the fact he was killed. Surely if he was anticpating some form of disloyalty from the Noghri he would have kept Rukh a little further away before he was run through.

Anything else someone might like to add feel free..

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-01 02:33am

Thrawn is a damn genius! The fact that he isn't McGuyver doesn't make him any less of a genius. Although you did foget to mention the umbrella. No McGuyver invention kit would be complete without a umbrella.

The worst brain bug ever to exsist in all of SW, EU or otherwise: Stormies cannot aim. 'Nuff said.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-01 02:35am

Tied for Rogue Squadron and the Vong. I would say overwhelmingly the Vong but the authors handled much it better then most have.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-01 02:36am

I have to say the Vong....they have singlehandedly put me off all the books past Visions of the Future. The entire "bio kicks everything's ass" thing offends me....the other two are less objectionable.....
1. The Rogues :- It could be explained in terms of propaganda....the creation of hero's for other republic pilots to aspire to.....similar to the way aces were treated in the early days of fighter combat. It could be seen that thier abilities are often exagerated to provide a moral boost for the rebel/NR forces.......something to keep the troops hopeful.
2. Thrawn's Genius - this could be seen in a similar way, but this is to me the least objectionable....there have always been those with more of a skill for the art of war than others. A classic example in the real world being Sun-Tzu, the author of "The Art of War". In some roleplay/simulations I've been involved in I've played characters with tallents similar to Thrawns (though it was done through hard work and honestly out thinking my opponents) and it often helped to have an air of infalliability....the myth can do half your work for you.....

The Vong though.....ugh.....

Keevan
- Former Prince of the Underempire, SWC.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-01 02:40am

One on one it seems that Vong weapons and technology are inferior to the technological NR / Imperial stuff, their early success being due to lack of preparedness among the NR. Thus I gotta vote for Rogue Squadron.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-01 02:41am

Having never read a single EU novel re: Vong. I have to say that the one that bugs me the most is the Thrawn thing. He is in my opinion bordering on a Mary Jane like precipice thankfully Zahn wrote him so well that it never achieved the ridiculous level a less skilled writer could have abused. He is a genius yes, but to basically say he is unbeatable spanks of a character wank fest I have never been happy about, no amount of genius is going to save the day under the right circumstances, even Thrawn could not outfight the Kobayashi Maru, the no win scenario. Let's be real about this.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-01 02:46am

Starfighter Combat Games: Sensor Domes=Shield Generators.

Argh!!!!

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-01 02:47am

I like the "Stormies can't aim", just because a few humans and a wookie didn't die on the first Death Star made for a bad stereotype. During the Jedi Academy Trilogy though they did note the precise marksmanship of a stormtrooper during the part when Zeth Durron was stuck dying on the doomed planet Carida.

I wonder if Jedi Healing trances aren't becoming cliches also, it seems that Luke and his students use the Healing Trance as the alpha and omega of all medical treatment anymore.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-01 02:51am

Never having bothered with the EU (and not being all that much of a warsie, either) I'm going to go with the ever-present bottomless pits as movie-SW's greatest brainbug.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-01 02:52am

I vote Vong because at least I know where the stupidity of the RS beating an ISD came from...doesn't make it better.

I like some of the Rogue stories...but the thought that pervades them of being able to handle a ISD(I swear it's the game's mechanics fault more than the novels), but the Vong seems like a cheap rip off of that old GI Joe movie villain where they hate tech and went the way of almight bio with living ships and shit.

Sorry the Vong for the most part have no tactics, no real anything but numbers an relative power and we are on what 12-13? books of this BS. The Rogues might have won if every book and comic they took down an ISD but the Vong take it because each book makes me wonder why the hell I touched EU in the first place.

Thrawn on the other hand would've been damn easy to abuse(and at times smacked of uber genius wanking), but he was a very well done character who did run when he understood his ass was getting hurt...and is still nowhere near the inanity of uber biowarships and antimech thoughts of the Vong.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-01 02:55am

Enlightenment wrote:Never having bothered with the EU (and not being all that much of a warsie, either) I'm going to go with the ever-present bottomless pits as movie-SW's greatest brainbug.

OMG I never thought of that before.....wow you're right. In TPM with Maul, and ANH with the DS catwalk scene, TESB at Cloud City, and ROTJ Emps Throne Room. OMG I never knew that...holy shit its like an woah....I think I need to go to bed.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-01 02:56am

Thrawn could take Kobayashi Maru, its simple, he wouldn't even let himself get to that point and he'd leave the ship to its own fate. I think his strengths lie in his preparation and prior knowledge of the enemy. Thrawn refused the Emperor's request to engage an enemy three times because he was not properly armed or informed on the enemy.

The reason he fucked over the NR so bad was due to his long term strategy, C'Baoth's War Coordination, and his knowledge of his Rebel enemies.

And Stravo, Thrawn would own Kirk, weapons technology aside Kirk just doesn't have the fortitude and is sometimes too willing to throw away his life in situations. Thrawn would just have to get some Stormies aboard the ship and start taking hostages.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-01 03:07am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Enlightenment wrote:Never having bothered with the EU (and not being all that much of a warsie, either) I'm going to go with the ever-present bottomless pits as movie-SW's greatest brainbug.
OMG I never thought of that before.....wow you're right. In TPM with Maul, and ANH with the DS catwalk scene, TESB at Cloud City, and ROTJ Emps Throne Room. OMG I never knew that...holy shit its like an woah....I think I need to go to bed.

TPM: Catwalk scene and circular pit
AOTC: Giant friggin cliff
---
ANH: Catwalk scene, docking bay, tractor beam generator scene
TESB: All over the damn place
ROTJ: Emperor's pit o' doom

Every lightsaber battle in the movies has at least one bottomless pit.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-01 03:13am

Darth Fanboy wrote:And Stravo, Thrawn would own Kirk, weapons technology aside Kirk just doesn't have the fortitude and is sometimes too willing to throw away his life in situations. Thrawn would just have to get some Stormies aboard the ship and start taking hostages.

It's interesting to note that I never brought up the Kirk vs. Thrawn thing, the Kobayashi Maru was brought up to point out that there are no win situations. Kirk won because he cheated aside from that you can't win, Kirk could have pulled out every tactic in the book and he still would have lost - you know why? Because the scenario is rigged for you to lose. Even if Thrawn came up with a stragey that killed the first wave of Klingon ships, the computer would simulate a power coupling failure and suddenly throw in a new wave of ships so that you can't win. Its a test of character not strategy.

This is what I'm talking about, the whole he can't lose thing that people reflexively whip out. If Thrawn were in a Delta Flyer and Kirk was in a ISD he would OWN Thrawn as you nicely put it. The same is in reverse. Now, in case you've been missing the point in my story Thrawn IS the no win scenario.

Geez, I was asked to give my opinion of a brain bug and it was an option.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-01 03:40am

Indeed, Stravo never mentioned a Kirk vs. Thrawn. However even in the situation of the Koshima Mushahi (I'm to lazy to scroll down and look for the name) even if there was a power coupling failure on Thrawn's ISD, would any Klingon ship have enough firepower to destroy it/be able to beam and aboard and take control (the latter is laughable, knowing Klingon boarding strategies). Especially before the crew could get everything working again?

Just an interesting point I thought I'd bring up, although I'd bet that Tharwn would eventually lose. In any feddy ship I'd guess Thrawn would get squashed.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2003-01-01 03:41am

I vote other. Vong biotech invincibility and Rogue Squadron crushing ISDs are extremely annoying, but they're nothing compared to the idea that Stormtroopers are a bunch of poorly trained idiots. Despite the fact that Stormies demonstrate excellent skills several times during the films, most Rebel fanboys still think they suck because they couldn't kill Luke and the gang on the DS in ANH. For crying out loud, it was all a TRICK. Most people seem to have gone death when Leia clearly stated that their escape was too easy and probably allowed, and when it was stated that a homing device was planted on the Falcon.

Other annoying brainbugs are that TIEs are crap (related to the Rogue Sqadron invincibility idea) and that Jedi telekinesis can't work on living matter.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-01 03:44am

Wow, that's the first time I've seen Kobayashi Maru rendered as something like Koshima Mushahi.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-01 03:47am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Wow, that's the first time I've seen Kobayashi Maru rendered as something like Koshima Mushahi.

Behold the power of my lazy and tremble mortal, TREMBLE!

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-01 04:32am

Stravo, no negativity intended on my part I apologize for that. I just noted how you said Thrawn couldn't beat the Kobuyashi scenario combined with your kirk avatar and I figured, what the hell. So, apology on my part.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-01-01 06:59am

Stravo wrote:This is what I'm talking about, the whole(Thrawn) can't lose thing that people reflexively whip out.

That's always been pretty silly, since he failed a major mission in his very first appearance when his plan to steal the Republic ships was thwarted in Heir to the Empire.

There were also occasions where he came to incorrect conclusions, most notably in the second book. The conclusions were logical, but he was missing some of the necessary information. He was keenly intelligent, but hardly omniscient.

The biggest brain bug that bothers me regarding Thrawn was the studying of art. Don't get me wrong, art may reveal quite a bit about the artist and his culture, but sorting out which is which and how significant they are even in a single piece can be very difficult. It's also questionable to what degree those observations reflect the viewer rather than the artist.

There are ways around that of course. The simplest would be to posit that Thrawn did study standard intelligence reports, psychological/cultural studies, and so on, and he studied art as confirmation of certain patterns and as a aid to assuming his opponents' mind-set to better understand their thinking processes.

-- Joe Momma

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-01-01 08:36am

Darth Fanboy wrote: Thanks to Michael Stackpole we have some fairly well written novels that don't get caught up in cliche battles against "Dark Jedi", unfortunately we have perpetuated a myth that 12 X-Wings with decent pilots can wipe out large Capital Ships and pretty much do as they damn well please, when this is in fact, not the case.

I agree that this is quite silly, but since that cliché probably is much older than Rogue Squadron, I don't think I'll vote for this. (It was probably already an established sci-fi cliché when it entered SW)

The Yhuuzhan Vong's biotechnology, anyone who has been on this board for for more than a couple of weeks has probably noticed a general disdain for people spouting nonsense in regards to the "almighty biotech". It my personal opinion that anything biological isn't even technology in a true sense.

Now, I haven't read the NJO books, BUT:

From what I've heard, the Yuuzhan Vong sounds like a species that just doesn't belong in SW. They seem too weird for SW. However, the Yuuzhan Vong are part of a brain bug rather than a brain bug on their own right.

Admiral Thrawn is one of the hands down coolest characters we have ever seen. However this has led some people to think that Thrawn's genius would work in any situation and that given an escape pod, three twinkies, and a box of rubber bands he could wipe out enemy fleets. This is not the case, Thrawn is a genius true but he does not have omnipotent mental faculties, which is evident by the fact he was killed. Surely if he was anticpating some form of disloyalty from the Noghri he would have kept Rukh a little further away before he was run through.

Hmm.... this seems like the most annoying of the three. Admiral Thrawn is NOT supposed to be the Chiss equivalent of Captain Kirk!!!

However, you should have included the "Short-Sighted Stormtrooper" brain bug on the poll. It makes Stormtroopers so much less threatening. Luckily, their Old Republic predecessors, the Clone Troopers, don't seem so inaccurate with their weapons.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2003-01-01 10:24am

I voted the X-Wings torp ISD. It's just insanely idiotic.

Cyaround,
Jason

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-01 12:34pm

It simply HAS to be the stupid Rogue Squadron thing. That pisses me off to no end, particularly since it demonstrates that Mr. Stackpole and Mr. Allston consider playing X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter "research" for their books.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2003-01-01 01:16pm

Rebel Propoganda moved the decimal point from 12000 to 12 fighters.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-01 02:31pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:Stravo, no negativity intended on my part I apologize for that. I just noted how you said Thrawn couldn't beat the Kobuyashi scenario combined with your kirk avatar and I figured, what the hell. So, apology on my part.

Thats fine, no need for an apology. I could see where you may have drawn that conclusion.

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