StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I just caught Episode 3 on HBO. Near the end we see Padme tell Obi Wan that there is still good in Vader. At this point in the story is it really relevant. While we don't see it directly, we know Anakin kills children at the Jedi Temple. I don't think there are many adults who have children in their life that didn't cringed at this moment. Assuming Vader doesn't actually die in ROTJ but returns to the good side, should his ass be killed for his heinous crimes? It is not like you can put a Jedi in a normal prison. I just can't forgive him for what he did, can you?

Also at the very end we see Padme "give up" the will to live as her children are born. WTF? Thats a terrible thing to do! So what are we to make of her? In my eyes she basically abandon her children.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:I just caught Episode 3 on HBO. Near the end we see Padme tell Obi Wan that there is still good in Vader. At this point in the story is it really relevant. While we don't see it directly, we know Anakin kills children at the Jedi Temple. I don't think there are many adults who have children in their life that didn't cringed at this moment. Assuming Vader doesn't actually die in ROTJ but returns to the good side, should his ass be killed for his heinous crimes? It is not like you can put a Jedi in a normal prison. I just can't forgive him for what he did, can you?

Really, Vader's redemption only occured because he died in the process. Certainly, there were extenuating circumstance involved in the various atrocities he commited, but that doesn't really absolve him. Upon reemerging, Anakin spent his own life to save that of his son, and in the process destroyed one of the greatest evils the galaxy had ever known. And in the end, Luke was the only one who really forgave him. I believe that the redeption was a true one, but really, there was no way he could live on at the same time (more than likely, we wouldn't have been able to live with himself).

Also at the very end we see Padme "give up" the will to live as her children are born. WTF? Thats a terrible thing to do! So what are we to make of her? In my eyes she basically abandon her children.

That is a topic of considerable dispute, and as far as I know, it's never been officially resolved. The "she lost the will to live" bit is quite stupid, undeniably; some have postulated that the interposed sequences of her giving birth/dying, and Vader's operation suggest that he unconsciously drained the life out of her through the Force to sustain himself. Take it as you will.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:I just caught Episode 3 on HBO. Near the end we see Padme tell Obi Wan that there is still good in Vader. At this point in the story is it really relevant. While we don't see it directly, we know Anakin kills children at the Jedi Temple. I don't think there are many adults who have children in their life that didn't cringed at this moment. Assuming Vader doesn't actually die in ROTJ but returns to the good side, should his ass be killed for his heinous crimes? It is not like you can put a Jedi in a normal prison. I just can't forgive him for what he did, can you?

If Luke could have brought it upon himself to see his father being punished for crimes he committed 20 years ago, while under the evil influence of Palpatine, where would he have gotten that information from? Obi-Wan was dead, Yoda was dead, Padme was dead, and I couldn't imagine what the relevence would be. I highly doubt Obi-Wan would talk to Luke and tell him to punish his father, there would be no point.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Also at the very end we see Padme "give up" the will to live as her children are born. WTF? Thats a terrible thing to do! So what are we to make of her? In my eyes she basically abandon her children.

Her dying might not have been all her fault. There are some arguments as to how much damage Vader actually did to Padme's internal organs when he Force-choked her. An argument that I, for one, believe makes more sense is that Vader, after losing three limbs and sustaining third-degree burns, was unintentionally draining Padme's life force to keep himself alive.

You can see when Obi-Wan returns to Padme's ship she is rather out of it and passes out after a few words with Obi-Wan. I doubt this is a normal reaction to being choked for a few seconds, I point to ANH when Vader Force-chokes an officer, and he is perfectly fine after Vader releases him.

Are there any canon instances showing someone can use the force to drain life energy? The medical robot said she was fine physically, so her demise has to be a result of her giving up or perhaps as suggested Vader drains her.

Obi-wan might not tell Luke about his father's crimes but what about Yoda? I also think that sooner or later the truth would be discovered. There was the security video and all the clones involved in the actual attack. Someone had to police all the bodies.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Are there any canon instances showing someone can use the force to drain life energy?

I'm fairly certain the SW Encyclopedia gives dark-side lightning as draining life energy as well as frying circuits, but I don't have the quote handy, and it's been some years since I read the book.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Obi-wan might not tell Luke about his father's crimes but what about Yoda? I also think that sooner or later the truth would be discovered. There was the security video and all the clones involved in the actual attack. Someone had to police all the bodies.

Okay, if someone decided to inform Luke about Anakin's killing spree in the temple...

Why isolate that particular incident? Killing younglings may be up there, but Vader has done some very horrible things during his career.

And why tell him at all? That would be quite the kill-joy. And who knows, if Vader did indeed survive, he would probably atone for all his dastardly deeds in the past, he might even pull a Yoda and go into exile for the rest of his life.

You know, all the med-droids really say in Padme's death scene is "Fuck, we're stumped. She must want to die." In other words, that "lost the will to live" thing is pretty much a throwaway line.

Cos Dashit wrote: Why isolate that particular incident? Killing younglings may be up there, but Vader has done some very horrible things during his career.

Because it struck a personal note with me, there are several kids in my life who I adore to death (no pun intended).

Cos Dashit wrote: And why tell him at all? That would be quite the kill-joy. And who knows, if Vader did indeed survive, he would probably atone for all his dastardly deeds in the past, he might even pull a Yoda and go into exile for the rest of his life.

Thats what brought up my question. Lets assume Vader is totally redeemed and returns to the good side. I don't think this absolves him of his crimes he needs to be put in trial.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Are there any canon instances showing someone can use the force to drain life energy?

Numerous cases in the KotOR games, for one - Drain Life is a fairly common Dark Side power, and it's a plot point on one or two occasions.

Heroines who die of broken hearts are a dime a dozen in myths, fairy tales, popular fiction and operas. Why should Star Wars be any different?

if anakin/vader used the force to drain live from padme, shouldn't yoda or obi wan sense that?

freker wrote:if anakin/vader used the force to drain live from padme, shouldn't yoda or obi wan sense that?

That assumes they know what to look for. Remember how Palpatine stood in front of them for ten years as Chancellor and they couldn't tell he was a Sith Lord?

Thematically speaking, the Jedi in the prequels are supposed to be blind, aloof and arrogant fools who fall due to hubris.

Elfdart wrote:Heroines who die of broken hearts are a dime a dozen in myths, fairy tales, popular fiction and operas. Why should Star Wars be any different?

Of course it shouldn't, from a literary point of view. There's no ready description under SoD, though.

Stofsk wrote:

freker wrote:if anakin/vader used the force to drain live from padme, shouldn't yoda or obi wan sense that?

That assumes they know what to look for. Remember how Palpatine stood in front of them for ten years as Chancellor and they couldn't tell he was a Sith Lord?

Thematically speaking, the Jedi in the prequels are supposed to be blind, aloof and arrogant fools who fall due to hubris.

I should also point out that the in-story explanation is that the existence and rise of the Sith has clouded the Force, so that their combat abilities and general prescience have diminished; apparently, the Light Side of the Force hasn't been "normal" since Obi-Wan was a youngling (ref. ROTS Novelization). That may also account for their inability to detect Anakin draining life force from Padme, even if they knew what to look for. Finally, it's possible they knew, could see it, and could do nothing about it, either out of impotence or out of risking their location to the Emperor's vision.

Givwen not once in canon they have ever pointed out Anakin doing this, it's also as acceptable as saying the Emperor purposefully killing her through the Force to insure Anakin had no attachments.

So is anyone going to even point out something, anything that even remotely demonstrates this, or are we having this round about...yet again?

The existence of a life force/soul is well-established throughout the canon, not the least by the end of RotJ. Since we know it is possible to consciously control how the life force is removed from the body -- this is what Qui-Gon was teaching Obi-Wan and Yoda -- as well as unconsciously (neither Qui-Gon nor Vader, to my knowledge, had studied the technique), I don't see any reason to disbelieve that it's possible to forcibly drain someone's life force (especially in light of my memory of the Encyclopedia, posted above).

However, the existence of the ability doesn't mean that it's a valid description of what was going on; I, personally, am more inclined to believe that Padme's despair and depression caused her to unconsciously separate her soul-thingy from her body.

Surlethe wrote:The existence of a life force/soul is well-established throughout the canon, not the least by the end of RotJ. Since we know it is possible to consciously control how the life force is removed from the body -- this is what Qui-Gon was teaching Obi-Wan and Yoda -- as well as unconsciously (neither Qui-Gon nor Vader, to my knowledge, had studied the technique), I don't see any reason to disbelieve that it's possible to forcibly drain someone's life force (especially in light of my memory of the Encyclopedia, posted above).

However, the existence of the ability doesn't mean that it's a valid description of what was going on; I, personally, am more inclined to believe that Padme's despair and depression caused her to unconsciously separate her soul-thingy from her body.

Strange that you cite a round about way, when I asked for SPECFIC proof. Not..."The Force is linked to the soul, thus since the affaiar is obviously soul linked and this is what must have happened."

In SoD one also has to provide something of proof, or it's a fanon theory. So as with many fanon theories do you have PROOF.

Ghost Rider wrote:Strange that you cite a round about way, when I asked for SPECFIC proof. Not..."The Force is linked to the soul, thus since the affaiar is obviously soul linked and this is what must have happened."

Careful; I never claimed that "this is what was happening". The meat of the post was to simply establish the existence of the soul and the fact people can control its separation of the body; I explicitly admitted that doesn't provide evidence.

In SoD one also has to provide something of proof, or it's a fanon theory. So as with many fanon theories do you have PROOF.

Of course not. That's why I said that I believe this is what was happening. I wasn't attempting to meet your challenge, since I can't.

EDIT: I want to make clear that I'm using "believe" in the stricter sense, as in, "I believe in God", as opposed to the colloquial sense, "I believe that's a gun-wielding maniac over there."

TrailerParkJawa wrote:I just caught Episode 3 on HBO. Near the end we see Padme tell Obi Wan that there is still good in Vader. At this point in the story is it really relevant. While we don't see it directly, we know Anakin kills children at the Jedi Temple. I don't think there are many adults who have children in their life that didn't cringed at this moment. Assuming Vader doesn't actually die in ROTJ but returns to the good side, should his ass be killed for his heinous crimes? It is not like you can put a Jedi in a normal prison. I just can't forgive him for what he did, can you?

You can't. The redemption Anakin had was spiritual in nature, and was achieved through Luke Skywalker, the sons of suns.....

It surely didn't justify any physical redemption of his deeds, and certainly, we note that the universe hasn't. It may be interesting however to examine how Luke dedication to the Republic may have been shaped by this desire to redeem his father name.

Also at the very end we see Padme "give up" the will to live as her children are born. WTF? Thats a terrible thing to do! So what are we to make of her? In my eyes she basically abandon her children.

We don't know why she died. In religious terms, its actually very common for mothers of demi-gods to die in birth. For example, Buddha mother supposedly died in childbirth because she poured all her life energies into Buddha. (or she couldn't contain the spiritual needs of Buddha)

We see this theme echoed in Tolkien where Feanor birth drained the energies of his mother.

Padme death could be seen in this way.

if we do accept the medical droid view as being George interpretation of why Padme died, then Padme death must been seen in the context of Anakin descent into Vader. Other than the theme of destiny, fate and the inability to avoid it(read Turin and Odepius, hell, Hamlet even) Padme death probably signalled the loss of redemption and irreversible descent to the dark side for Vader. Her sudden demise then would be seen more in the context of the Light Side demise and the loss of that will, the loss of the optimisim and the democracy of the Republic.

Surlethe wrote: Of course it shouldn't, from a literary point of view. There's no ready description under SoD, though.

In SOD terms, its call the will of the Force.

We already have the "Shroud of the Dark Side", "Obiwan Cloak", "Sons of Suns" and "The Chosen One". Not to mention the myth of Darth Vader glove and god knows what else the Sith lord believe in.

People suffer from mysterious deaths all the time.

Surlethe wrote:

Elfdart wrote:Heroines who die of broken hearts are a dime a dozen in myths, fairy tales, popular fiction and operas. Why should Star Wars be any different?

Of course it shouldn't, from a literary point of view. There's no ready description under SoD, though.

Padme was told earlier that she would die in childbirth. Maybe after Anakin strangled her she actually believed it and lost the will to live. People have been known to "quit" (for lack of a better term) on the paramedics or in the emergency room.

^ Between that and the fact that she was an emotionally traumatized, pregnant woman who had just been telekinetically throttled for several seconds, I have no problem with SoD regarding Padme's death.

Noble Ire wrote:That is a topic of considerable dispute, and as far as I know, it's never been officially resolved. The "she lost the will to live" bit is quite stupid, undeniably; some have postulated that the interposed sequences of her giving birth/dying, and Vader's operation suggest that he unconsciously drained the life out of her through the Force to sustain himself. Take it as you will.

I'm surprised no one has ever brought up the notion that Anakin's rage on the medical bed had merely inflicted harm on Padme without resorting to the "Force Drain" explanation. Anakin's seething anger may not have necessarily drained Padme for his well being but it isn't too far fetched to conclude that it somehow harmed her. Force users have always had some kind of connection with those they care about (Yoda's reaction when the Jedis were being terminated and Obi-Wan's reaction when Alderaan was destroyed).

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Also at the very end we see Padme "give up" the will to live as her children are born. WTF? Thats a terrible thing to do! So what are we to make of her? In my eyes she basically abandon her children.

Considering that her whole world had just come crashing down around her, I don't think I'd peg that as a rationally thought-out action. She just learned that her husband was a mass murderer, the government she fought for her entire life had just turned into a dictatorship and and had just been abused by her husband.

I'm surprised no one has ever brought up the notion that Anakin's rage on the medical bed had merely inflicted harm on Padme without resorting to the "Force Drain" explanation.

I actually thought of it. We know that Fore-users have long-range telepathy, with especially strong links to those they care about. We've never seen Anakin as enraged as he was in Episode III when he was Force-choking Padme. That can't have been good for her. Having such strong negative emotion blased at you is probably comparable to a mental rape.