ISD II vs MC 90

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-01-03 05:00pm

No fighters, no support.
The ISD II is suppose to handle an ordinary Mon Calamari rebel star cruiser one on one and survive right? Then what about the MC90. I have heard that ship was designed for war so what are the odds?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-03 05:11pm

A basic ISD can handel an Mc80 or Mc80a, I don't know about the Mc80B. The Mc90 is more powerful then a ISD but slightly weaker then the ISD II IIRC, it may be slightly more powerful.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-04 04:59am

ISD I can handle all MonCal 80s with relative ease.
The MC 90 is equivalent so it depends on how good the commanders are.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-04 06:04am

Usually it would be the type of fighters making the difference in this situation. Of course the number of MC-90s the Rebels had compared to the number of ISD IIs the Empire had made the MC-90s definitely more valuable, which means only their best officers would be in command of them.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-04 06:40am

I'd give the odds to the ISD2. The MC90 has more weapons and stronger shielding, but it's weapons are inferior from what I read. The overall difference can't be huge though.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-04 08:47am

Does the MC90 have anything like the HTLs of the ISD2?

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 11:25am

The Mon Calamari Cruisers in ROTJ had atleast two Heavy Turbolasers, and seeing as how the Mc90 is supposed to be a heavier armed model I would assume that it carries atleast a dozen Heavy Turrets. (That is if the Mc80 didn't itself.)

This battle is stacked againt the ISD II quite frankly. Mon Calamari ships have been said to rely on multiple shield generators which can take over once one set of shields is destroyed. Throughout the literature I've seen the writers have stated that, compared to Mon Calamari vessels, Imperial shields are more limited and weaker.

The Mc90 also carries a greater quantity of superior fighter squadrons when compared to the ISD. With the exception of the Z-95 and the A-Wing all New Republic Fighters carry Proton Torpedoes, which in sufficient numbers can open up wholes in Imperial shields.

The ISD II will do alot of damage, but in the end the superior shielding and strike aircraft of the Mc90 will win out.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-04 02:22pm

and where did you get that 'a dozen heavy turrets' from? You assumed it, ie pulled it out of your ass. While it is true that MC 80s rely on multiple shield systems, ISDs feature much heavier weaponry. Now if we go by that the MC90 will be possibly heavier armed than the MC80, but stronger shields are far more likely.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-04 02:33pm

The MC 90 packs 75 MTL batteries, 30 Ion Cannons, and 30 torpedo tubes.

Personally, I think that the MC 90 has the edge here because of the missiles. Because of how they and Wars shielding work, missiles have a better chance and knocking down shields. So a full spread followed by a TL barage should be nasty. Plus the MC90 still has tripple the shielding of an Impstar, and this version has decent armor as well.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-04 02:37pm

Ender wrote:The MC 90 packs 75 MTL batteries, 30 Ion Cannons, and 30 torpedo tubes.

Personally, I think that the MC 90 has the edge here because of the missiles. Because of how they and Wars shielding work, missiles have a better chance and knocking down shields. So a full spread followed by a TL barage should be nasty. Plus the MC90 still has tripple the shielding of an Impstar, and this version has decent armor as well.

Ok the 75 MTL won't give it the edge over the ISD, the 30 ions won't either, but remember the ISD features warhead launchers, too.
By these stats the MC 90 seems a bit underarmed so it's possibly more heavily shielded.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-04 02:46pm

Cpt_Frank wrote: Ok the 75 MTL won't give it the edge over the ISD, the 30 ions won't either, but remember the ISD features warhead launchers, too.

No, the noncanon, nonofficial Mandel blueprints have them, and a refitted ISD used by the rebels traded trator beams for them. There is absolutly zero evidence that missiles are used on a standard ISD, merely speculation by Saxton.

By these stats the MC 90 seems a bit underarmed so it's possibly more heavily shielded.

It is certainly more heavily shielded. It has 3 sets of shields to the ISDs 1. That's what let's mon clas hang in there long enough to have a chance.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 03:12pm

Actually Ender there is a quote out of the Zahn Book, "Spectre of the Past" that gives the ISD Mark II atleast 120 Proton Torpedoes in 8 Torpedo Clusters of 15 each. Also the Victory-class Star Destroyer is said to carry 80 Concussion Missile Tubes as well. The Mc90 is an EU vessel, and we have documented proof that EU capital ships carry Torpedoes and Missiles.

And by the way. The Mc90 was stated to have 75 Turbolaser Batteries. That was opposed to 60 Turbolaser Batteries of an ISD and the 48 Turbolaser Batteries of an Mc80. In the realm of WEG and the Expanded Universe the Mc90 was meant to outgun the original Star Destroyer.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-04 03:45pm

i've never been entirely convinced by the Mon Cal Cruisers. In The New Rebellion 30 Ships were out matched by just 3 automated Victory Star Destroyers. Admitidly they don't day what model the 3 Mon Cals in that fleet were but even so...........

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 03:55pm

"The New Rebellion" is one of those EU boks you have to take with a grain of salt. It's a cute story but as far as technological continutity goes books like that, Darksaber, and the others really lack.

However 3 Victory-class Star Destroyers are nothing to scoff at. Thier firepower ranks them within the realm of the new battleships. They don't have the power to go toe to toe with a heavy battleship and win, but they have enough power where they could do a hell of a lot of damage. With three VSD's tackling a task force they could proabably hold back 30 ships, as long as there was only 1 or 2 enemy Battleships. I don't remember the damag they incurred on the enemy fleet, but I do recall the VSD's ended upp getting thier asses handed to them. Or atleast I think they did.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-04 03:58pm

Yeah the 3 Vics were destroyed, but only due to Wedge's character shield.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 04:12pm

Ah Crap, I remember that now.
Wedge fired on an allied ship with powered down weapons to make it seem as though he was friendly with the VSD. The droids allowed him to pull upon alongside them and Wedge wasted them with weapons fire or something like that.

Anyways, the Mc90 would still kick the crap out of the ISD II.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-04 04:16pm

IceHawk-151 wrote:Ah Crap, I remember that now.
Wedge fired on an allied ship with powered down weapons to make it seem as though he was friendly with the VSD. The droids allowed him to pull upon alongside them and Wedge wasted them with weapons fire or something like that.

Anyways, the Mc90 would still kick the crap out of the ISD II.

75 medium turbolasers, 30 warhead launchers vs 64 heavy turbolasers (and that's the heavies only), and 120 launchers according to spectre of the past.
Seems more like the ISD would kick the crap out of the MonCal.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 04:44pm

There are not 75 MTL's on an Mc90. There are 75 Turbolaser Batteries. According to various sources those batteries could have between two and three cannons each.

Quick Data: As far as I know this is the weapon loadout of an ISD Mark II

8 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries (64 Cannons): Each quad mount atleast as powerful as the orignial cannon.

60 Light Turbolaser Batteries (180 Cannons): Each battery has three cannons. (Not sure where this came from, but assuming the Mark II was an upgrade I thought this possible)

8 Proton Torpedo Clusters (120 Tubes): Each Cluster fires 15 Torpedoes in various patterns.

60 Ion Cannon Batteries (120 Cannons): Maintained from the Mark I model

When compared with the WEG loadout for a Mc90 this is pretty Impressive, but we have to rationalize the loadout of the Mon Cal Cruiser first. If you will remember nowhere in official literature does it say there are 12 HTL Cannons on an ISD. The original numbers were 60 Turbolaser Batteries. After study of the ISD model we found out that those 60 Batteries were truly Light Weapons and that there were only a dozen Heavy weapons. Since we have no model of the Mc90 to examine we have to find a way to rationalize this.

75 Turbolaser Batteries: These are most likely the Light Cannons. There could be either 150 LTL's or 225 LTL's depending on the type of battery.

30 Ion Cannons: Either this is 30 Ion Cannons or 30 Ion cannon batteries. The latter would mean about 60 Ion Cannons.

30 Concussion Missile Launchers: Launchers, not clusters, so there are a max of 30 CM Tubes.

HTL Cannons: Unknown. We could try to rationalize this number. For instance applying the 1 HTL for every 10 LTL cannons ratio (ISD I) to the Mc90 would give either 15 or 22 HTL Cannons. Assuming the 64 HTL Cannons on the ISD II are scaled down by 1/4 that would mean the Mark II has an equivalent of 16 HTL Cannons.

Ofcourse these are arbitrary numbers, but it's the only way I can rationalize the armarment of the Mon Calamari Cruisers.

IN my Opinion the loadouts are as follows.
ISD I
120 LTL Cannons, 120 Ion Cannons, ? MTL Cannons, 12 VHTL Cannons
Mc90
225 LTL Cannons, 60 Ion Cannons, 30 Concussion Tubes, 22 VHTL Cannons.
ISD II
180 LTL, 120 Ion Cannons, 120 Proton Tubes, 64 HTL Cannons (Equivalent to 16 VHTL Cannons)

In my rationalization the Mc90 would defeat both ISD's in a straight up fight, though the Mark II would deal out a lot of damage. This isn't concrete fact or anything like that, just my opinion.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-04 06:48pm

IceHawk-151 wrote:Actually Ender there is a quote out of the Zahn Book, "Spectre of the Past" that gives the ISD Mark II atleast 120 Proton Torpedoes in 8 Torpedo Clusters of 15 each. Also the Victory-class Star Destroyer is said to carry 80 Concussion Missile Tubes as well. The Mc90 is an EU vessel, and we have documented proof that EU capital ships carry Torpedoes and Missiles.

The3 Chimera had been recaptured from Republic forces, and the republic refits their ISDs, making them "Rebel" class ships. It is not standard on the ISD2.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-04 06:50pm

Oh, and it isn't 120 either. Read how they are fired. It comes out as 3 volleys of 5, not 15 in one volley.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-01-04 08:27pm

...and come with different conclusions.

The ISD-II in fact has a greatly reduced ion cannon complement, RPG-wise.

The RPG stats could in fact reprsent the overall firepower relationship between various vessels. I still don't think the standard ISD-II had protorp mounts, so let's forget them for now.

Please do remember that every one of the ISD-I mounts actually was rated by the RPG as superior in throw weight (5D versus 4D.) They have sixty, which I rationalize as an averaging out of every mount, heavy and light aboard the ship.) That gives me about 300D of throw weight in TL alone.

Your ship has 72 batteries. If we assume they are an aggregate, that means 288D worth of throw weight. spread between all your heavy and light guns.

(Oh, as an aside, that would lead to the ISD-II having 850D of aggregate throw weight - see, a ISD-II is a superior vessel to the ISD-I)

Not mentioning aggregate firepower, the average individual mount on my side probably has superior point penetration characteristics as well. But your shields are tougher.

The heavier half of a ISD-II's guns average out at 10D, versus 6D defense, for a 4D superiority. Even my lighter half has 1D of superiority. Your ship has a 1D or 2D of advantage (for some reason, after saying that a ISD-II is superior in shielding and all that, they go on to give it a 2D+2 rather than the ISD-I's 3D.)

In terms of shield resillence, let's try a computer game (they aren't great, but maybe we can still get a relationship.) Your shields are about 8000SBD versus 5760. But I've got a lot more offense. I can probably win this shoot.

The ultimate sign, I believe, as always, is when during a combined force exercise in the NJO era, a ISD-II beat out a Mediator (which I would think is better than a MC-90) into becoming flagship. Generally, you put your flag on the most powerful ship (there are times when you put it on a very poorly armed ship with great C3I ability, but this does not seem to be one of those times.)

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-04 08:43pm

The ultimate sign, I believe, as always, is when during a combined force exercise in the NJO era, a ISD-II beat out a Mediator (which I would think is better than a MC-90) into becoming flagship. Generally, you put your flag on the most powerful ship (there are times when you put it on a very poorly armed ship with great C3I ability, but this does not seem to be one of those times.)

Your assumption. Wedge has commanded small forces w/ a light frigate as commandship.

Saxton estimates the Mediator is of Mon Calamari build and of battlecruiser size IIRC. Furthermore it Mon Cal-build means it is probably chock-full of inconviences and Mon Cal customizations that make it shit for stock-humans and near-humans to understand and to command large fleet presences from. It was ok when the heart of the Rebel/NR fleets consisted of almost entirely higher-end Mon Cal ships, but where you have large Corellian vessels; and Republic/Nebula-classes of SD, you're looking for that C3I capability. ISDs are fast and have excellent range and survivability as well as long-range communications and versatility. The Mediator was going to be spearheading against a still largely-unfamiliar foe with which they didn't have much luck with. I understand why they made the likely smaller, weaker ISD as a commandship. Of course this is just a theory, I could be wrong.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-01-04 08:51pm

If I can ever find the RPG specs I could post them here. The main sheilds were hella compared to an ISD I or II. The hugest thing was the system ratings. I'm not exactly sure how it would relate though. The main fact was, that an MC-90 could withstand an Ion barrage from at least one ISD and still pound the bitch flat. I believe the launch tubes were proton torps.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-04 09:13pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:The ultimate sign, I believe, as always, is when during a combined force exercise in the NJO era, a ISD-II beat out a Mediator (which I would think is better than a MC-90) into becoming flagship. Generally, you put your flag on the most powerful ship (there are times when you put it on a very poorly armed ship with great C3I ability, but this does not seem to be one of those times.)

No, the Mon Mothma is a Republic class Star Destroyer (or as it's called in DW, Republic class cruiser). The only mention of Wedge and an Impsatr on the NJO is that the Errant Venture was part of his fleet at Borealis.

And I can't find a sinlge thing in Vector Prime that backs the idea of an 11 mile Mediator. It says it is the newest, nothing more.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-04 09:15pm

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:If I can ever find the RPG specs I could post them here. The main sheilds were hella compared to an ISD I or II. The hugest thing was the system ratings. I'm not exactly sure how it would relate though. The main fact was, that an MC-90 could withstand an Ion barrage from at least one ISD and still pound the bitch flat. I believe the launch tubes were proton torps.

Mon Calamari MC90 star cruiser
Scale: capital
Length: 1,255 metres
Skill: Capital ship piloting: Mon Cal cruiser
Crew: 5860, gunners: 605, skeleton: 1350/+10
Crew Skill: Astrogation 4D, capital ship gunnery 5D, capital ship piloting 6D, capital ship shields 5D+1, sensors 4D.
Passengers: 1700 troops
Cargo Capacity: 30000 metric tons
Consumables: 2 years
Cost: not available for sale
Hyperdrive: x1
Hyperdrive Backup: x9
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 3D
Space: 7
Hull: 7D
Shields: 6D*
* MC90 star cruisers have 6D of back-up shields. When a die of shield is lost, if the shield operators can make an Easy capital ship shields total, one of the back-up die codes of shields can be brought up to increase the shield back to the full 6D.
Sensors:
Passive: 40/1D
Scan: 60/2D
Search: 120/3D
Focus: 5/4D
Weapons:
75 Turbolaser Batteries:
Fire Arc: 30 front, 15 left, 15 right, 15 back.
Crew: 3
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150km
Damage: 4D
30 Ion Cannon Batteries:
Fire Arc: 10 front, 8 left, 8 right, 4 back
Crew: 7
Skill: capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1-10/25/50
Atmosphere Range: 2-20/50/100km
Damage: 3D
8 Tractor Beam Projectors:
Fire Arc: 5 front, 1 left, 1 right, 1 back
Crew: 10
Skill: capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D+2
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 2-10/30/60km
Damage: 4D

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

ISD II vs MC 90

ISD II vs MC 90

Trying to keep things on the Low-end Here.

Well, I can see the same stuff...

Re: Well, I can see the same stuff...