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I've been trying to find the answer to this on Wookipedia, with no luck thus far:

According to the EU, just how many Dark Jedi force adepts and the like did Palpatine actually have? And besides those under his command/control, about how many more existed in the galaxy?

And does anyone think it's a bit excessive, considering how the films really tried to portray Force-trained users as dying out?

Battlehymn Republic wrote:According to the EU, just how many Dark Jedi force adepts and the like did Palpatine actually have? And besides those under his command/control, about how many more existed in the galaxy?

Off the top of my head, there was Jerec, Blackhole, Tremayne and Hethrir.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:And does anyone think it's a bit excessive, considering how the films really tried to portray Force-trained users as dying out?

Yes.

Galvatron wrote:Off the top of my head, there was Jerec, Blackhole, Tremayne and Hethrir.

And Mara Jade, Lumiya, the Dark knight that C'boath killed, and a host of lesser adepts he kept stashed away on Byss. Several of his advisors and at least one Grand Admiral (Nial Declann) were also Force users to some extent.

Battlehymn Republic wrote: And does anyone think it's a bit excessive, considering how the films really tried to portray Force-trained users as dying out?

Well, the Jedi numbered in the tens of thousands, IIRC, around the time Palpatine came to power.

Two Sith with what 10 to 15 truly adept darkside Force users doesn't seem to excessive.

The films portray the Jedi trained Force users as dying out. According to EU sources other Force users were apparently flourishing, but were more or less isolated.

10-15 only? Does that include all these:

Wookipedia wrote:Inquisitors

Inquisitors were the highest ranking Dark Side Adepts, members of the Inquisitorius, a special division of Imperial Intelligence.

Prophets of the Dark Side

The Dark Side Prophets were an ancient Outer Rim renegade Sith order founded by Darth Millennial. Though not Banist Sith, the Prophets were arguably a kind of true Sith. Darth Sidious rediscovered the group and brought them once again under his control, renaming them the Emperor's Mages.

Emperor's Hands

Emperor's Hands were top-secret special operatives trained in the Force by the Emperor himself. They were so secret they usually had no knowledge of each other. Mara Jade was one of the best-known Emperor's Hands.

Together with the Emperor's Mages, the Emperor's Hands were called the Dark Side Elite.

Imperial Royal Guard

These were hand-picked elite Stormtroopers assigned to protect and serve the Emperor directly. They were required to have Force sensitivity, even if undeveloped. Those with advanced talents were assigned as Sovereign Protectors, and those with even more advanced talents underwent Force training under Dark Jedi tutors.

Dark Jedi

Although the name might imply otherwise, Dark Jedi were not synonymous with Sith, although Darth Vader among others used techniques drawn from the traditions of both the Dark Jedi and the Sith. It was much more likely for Dark Jedi to return to the Light (e.g. Kam Solusar). Other notable Dark Jedi included Sora Bulq, Joruus C'baoth, Jerec, and the particularly infamous Asajj Ventress.

I may be overestimating the number, since I had thought the Prophets of the Dark Side numbering in the dozens, and it gets confusing once you throw the Church of the Dark Side into the mix.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:10-15 only? Does that include all these:

Wookipedia wrote:Inquisitors

Inquisitors were the highest ranking Dark Side Adepts, members of the Inquisitorius, a special division of Imperial Intelligence.

Prophets of the Dark Side

The Dark Side Prophets were an ancient Outer Rim renegade Sith order founded by Darth Millennial. Though not Banist Sith, the Prophets were arguably a kind of true Sith. Darth Sidious rediscovered the group and brought them once again under his control, renaming them the Emperor's Mages.

Emperor's Hands

Emperor's Hands were top-secret special operatives trained in the Force by the Emperor himself. They were so secret they usually had no knowledge of each other. Mara Jade was one of the best-known Emperor's Hands.

Together with the Emperor's Mages, the Emperor's Hands were called the Dark Side Elite.

Imperial Royal Guard

These were hand-picked elite Stormtroopers assigned to protect and serve the Emperor directly. They were required to have Force sensitivity, even if undeveloped. Those with advanced talents were assigned as Sovereign Protectors, and those with even more advanced talents underwent Force training under Dark Jedi tutors.

Dark Jedi

Although the name might imply otherwise, Dark Jedi were not synonymous with Sith, although Darth Vader among others used techniques drawn from the traditions of both the Dark Jedi and the Sith. It was much more likely for Dark Jedi to return to the Light (e.g. Kam Solusar). Other notable Dark Jedi included Sora Bulq, Joruus C'baoth, Jerec, and the particularly infamous Asajj Ventress.

I may be overestimating the number, since I had thought the Prophets of the Dark Side numbering in the dozens, and it gets confusing once you throw the Church of the Dark Side into the mix.

I was going by the named Force users I could remeber... Fuck! Aren't some of those named from the original marvel comics and the Al Williamson (is that right?) daily strips?

really tried to portray Force-trained users as dying out

Jedi, yes, but there were always Force-sensitive children being born. Why squander a potential resource? And the reason for the Hands was that they could do something Vader could not, sneak around unsuspected, blend into a crowd. Hard to do that when you're a six foot tall metal clad knight wearing a skull mask. :P

Out-of-universe, the dramatic impact of the epic events that took place in the movies would be vastly diminished if the films themselves revealed that there were dozens (if not more) traditions of Force practitioners besides the Jedi and the Sith.

In the EU, they have to spice things up, so they have numerous Force-trained groups there.. including many under Palpatine himself. Also, as VT-16 said, it's a good idea to have Force-sensitive agents.. they're a resource to be tapped. Quite simply, the capabilities of a Force-trained agent translate directly into a higher probability of success when it comes to getting shit done.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:I've been trying to find the answer to this on Wookipedia, with no luck thus far:

According to the EU, just how many Dark Jedi force adepts and the like did Palpatine actually have? And besides those under his command/control, about how many more existed in the galaxy?

And does anyone think it's a bit excessive, considering how the films really tried to portray Force-trained users as dying out?

There are not that many. Most of them would be less powerful than the weakest Jedi Knight. Mara Jade was not powerful at all, she was just a talented saboteur, assassin, and martial artist for whom the Force was an aid. Likewise for many of the Emperor's Hands. I mean one was Mareek Steele, a fighter pilot, no dark Jedi. Most of the powerful subordinates to Palpatine and Vader were leftover Jedi Knights who went over to the dark side in order to survive. Its hardly unthinkable that out of 10,000 Jedi that some weren't left over and captured after ROTS and offered their service. The concept of this outside the Sith Order is implicit in TESB, because in order for Vader's offer to make sense, the pretense that Luke could be turned to their side without either of them getting stabbed in the back had to be there. The vast majority of the inquisitors were not dark Jedi or Force sensitive at all. Not to mention we know that the Jedi Order was picky about admission and put a lot of Force sensitive kids into other projects of theirs, like the AgriCorps and ExploriCorps. I doubt Palpatine wouldn't have used these where not useful.

Overall I think there were maybe a couple hundred, max, and I'm including his barely-Force sensitive adepts and cultists, who're probably weaker than Mara Jade. Those of comparable talent to a mediocre Jedi Knight? Less than 20.

There are not a lot of Prophets, are they're a schismatic Sith sect which had been around for a long time. They were only nominally subject to Palpatine and the Church of the Dark Side was headed by fakes. The Church had no dark siders. To be a prophet you had to be both strong in the Force and particularly talented at recieving visions of the future. This would limit their membership, particularly. And most of them were rejects from the Jedi Order anyway.

I just want to point something out. It took the Jedi thousands of years to build up their ranks and while the abilities to detect force senitives is not a specific Jedi skill, they had a dedicated program to detect those that they would bring in.

Whne the Emperor destroyed the Jedi Order, he killed thousands and brought down most of the infastructure needed to produce more trained force users. He may have had the resources of the Empire, but Palpie and Vader were the only two real Sith. Even with the traitors, who Palpie never really trusted and probably never allowed them to train other, and those he had groomed, there was only so many force users that could be trained at a time. Add in how long it takes to train a force user, and there could only be so many Dark Siders by the time of the OT.

So I would put the number of users at a few hundred, probably far less.

Edit: I find it interesting that my first post as a Sith was about them.

Well, to maintain an order of 10000 Jedi Knights with an average of 100 years of "service life" requires 100 talents sensitive enough to be trained as jedi. So, yearly 150 jedi knights prior to AOTC seems realistic.
If we assume another Force sensitive for every knight it is yearly 300.
If we assume that the clone wars destroyed half of the total population and neglect the facts that Force sensitive ones tend to have a higher chance of survival and Palpy is not restricted to the Area of the Republic it is yearly 150 with at least yearly 75 capable to be trained to knight.
I do not know whether the dark sider training is started as early as the conventional training and I also do not know whether how much of his meditation time Palpy used to find new recruits.
The existence of low hundreds of young dark side force users is credible, I think.

There's like 65 Dark Side Adepts listed in total here:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Side_Adepts

# Gwellib Ap-Llewff, Dark Side Adept of the Imperial Citadel
# Argor, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side
# Boc Aseca, Dark Jedi
# Picaroon C. Boodle, Dark Jedi
# Brakiss, Apprentice Inquisitor
# Adalric Cessius Brandl, High Inquisitor
# Jaalib Brandl, Apprentice Inquisitor
# Shira Ellan Colla Brie, Emperor's Hand
# Joruus C'baoth, Guardian of Wayland
# The Cloaked Figure, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side
# The Constable of Homunculi, Clone Keeper
# Cronal, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side/Emperor's Hand
# Sa Cuis, Emperor's Hand
# Ameesa Darys, Inquisitor
# Nial Declann, Grand Admiral
# Drayneen, Inquisitor
# Jeng Droga, Emperor's Hand
# Durrei, Dark Jedi
# Baddon Fass, Dark Side Elite
# Flint, Stormtrooper
# Vill Goir, Dark Side Elite
# Gorc, Dark Jedi
# Gornash, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side
# Kvag Gthull, Dark Side Elite
# Halmere, High Inquisitor
# Hethrir, Imperial Procurator of Justice
# Roganda Ismaren, Emperor's Hand
# Mara Jade, Emperor's Hand
# Shela Jalahafi, Dark Side Adept
# Teles Jalahafi, Dark Side Adept
# Carnor Jax, Imperial Sovereign Protector
# Jedgar, High Prophet of the Dark Side
# Jerec, Inquisitor/Emperor's Hand
# Kadann, Supreme Prophet of the Dark Side
# Zasm Katth, Dark Side Elite
# Danaan Kerr, Dark Jedi
# Vess Kogo, Emperor's Hand
# Arden Lyn, Emperor's Hand
# Malorum, Inquisitor
# Maw, Dark Jedi
# Merilli, Lesser Prophetess of the Dark Side
# Krdys Mordi, Dark Side Elite
# Morthul, Dark Jedi
# Nefta, Dark Side Adept of the Byss Clone Vats
# Xecr Nist, Dark Side Elite
# Sarcev Quest, Emperor's Hand
# Loam Redge, Inquisitor
# Rillao, Dark Jedi
# Sa-Di, Dark Side Adept of the Byss Clone Vats
# Sancor, Inquisitor
# Sariss, Lesser Prophetess of the Dark Side
# Sedriss, Dark Side Elite
# Shynne, Inquisitor
# Mox Slosin, High Inquisitor
# Kam Solusar, Dark Side Elite
# Maarek Stele, Emperor's Reach/Emperor's Hand
# Tedryn-Sha, Dark Side Elite
# Savuud Thimram, Dark Side Adept of the Imperial Citadel
# T'iaz, Dark Jedi
# Laddinare Torbin, Grand Inquisitor
# Tremayne, High Inquisitor
# Vost Tyne, Admiral
# Volytar, Inquisitor
# Vialco, Apprentice Inquisitor
# Yun, Dark Jedi

A bunch of those guys were in the Dark Empire series. I always liked them the best.

High Inquisitor Mox Slosin was not sensitive to the Force, and Rillao was not a dark Jedi; the Cloaked Figure is not even a single person. Nor were all of those people active at the same time; Inquisitors Malorum and Sancor died within the first few months of the Empire, and Xecr Nist and Tedryn-Sha became Dark Jedi only a few weeks before the Empire's final collapse at the most; Brakiss and Durrei did not even serve the Imperial State. Also, notice that many of the people on this list -- the Jalahafi siblings, Vialco, Brakiss, Joruus C'baoth, Flint -- are insignificant personages with little to no influence in the hierarchy. This is to say nothing of the people that are not listed: Arden Lyn, Rokur Gepta, and Lanu Pasiq spring to mind.

At any rate, most of the Emperor's Hands are virtual non-entities as far as the Force is concerned; the Prophets of the Dark Side were little more than seers and clairvoyants, and the dark side adepts were deliberately restricted in terms of how much mastery they were permitted to attain. The Galactic Emperor's dark side hierarchy is a long cry from being an army or a coherent military-monastic order in the way the Jedi had been.

A bunch of those guys were in the Dark Empire series.

And some of those were also shown in the post-ROTS webcomic Evasive Action, as fresh out of Dark Jedi training (they were mostly prisoners from the Agri Corps and trained by Vader). Tremayne was a major character, and they even had that guy with the snout from, like, one panel in DE. :P

Less then 100 Dark Side users is NOT an army.

Elite Special Forces, sure, but not an army.

Hell, it's approximately 1% of the Jedi population.

In a galaxy of Trillions+, with an army of billions, and firepower to glass planets in a matter of hours, that's NOTHING

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mara Jade was not powerful at all, she was just a talented saboteur, assassin, and martial artist for whom the Force was an aid. Likewise for many of the Emperor's Hands.

Additionally, didn't the Emperor somehow enhance Mara's powers remotely?

Cykeisme wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mara Jade was not powerful at all, she was just a talented saboteur, assassin, and martial artist for whom the Force was an aid. Likewise for many of the Emperor's Hands.

Additionally, didn't the Emperor somehow enhance Mara's powers remotely?

Apparently he did, though partially the loss of Mara Jade's power was due to her training focusing on tapping the force through the emperor (Causing her power and potency to dramatically diminish after his first Death over a period of a few months).

Still the Emperor enhancing Jade's Force talents (Rather than just giving her neutered training [which is Very likely considering his tendancy to hobble most of his minions]) is quite possible, since we have considerable evidence of force users helping others across a distance.
Examples of this would be The Siege of Yavin 4 during the Sith war, Palpatine watching Anakin from Afar, Jedi battle meditation and so on. Palpatine did know Battle meditation (Thrawn trilogy).
However the most likely prospect is a blend of both factors (Neutered training [A priest rather than wizard's tapping into magical power to use a D&D example] combined with a boost to the agents [hands, etc'] in question

DEATH wrote:Palpatine did know Battle meditation (Thrawn trilogy).

It has been 'revealed' that this was in fact, the work of Grand Admiral Nial Declann, who was aboard the Death Star.

NecronLord wrote:

DEATH wrote:Palpatine did know Battle meditation (Thrawn trilogy).

It has been 'revealed' that this was in fact, the work of Grand Admiral Nial Declann, who was aboard the Death Star.

When and where was this piece of retconning told?

Especially since there was a long and exampled explanation as to how one of the the main reasons the Imperial Fleet lost Endor was the Emperor co-ordinating them, and that without him they lost their co-ordination and suffered additional damage due to the mind control
(As Thrawn and Joruus C'Boath explicitly stated, in detail and how without the Emperor the Fleet was weakeend)

DEATH wrote:When and where was this piece of retconning told?

Don't know. I got it off Publius' website, IIRC. Probably the article that introduces the other Grand Admirals.

DEATH wrote:

NecronLord wrote:

DEATH wrote:Palpatine did know Battle meditation (Thrawn trilogy).

It has been 'revealed' that this was in fact, the work of Grand Admiral Nial Declann, who was aboard the Death Star.

When and where was this piece of retconning told?

Especially since there was a long and exampled explanation as to how one of the the main reasons the Imperial Fleet lost Endor was the Emperor co-ordinating them, and that without him they lost their co-ordination and suffered additional damage due to the mind control
(As Thrawn and Joruus C'Boath explicitly stated, in detail and how without the Emperor the Fleet was weakeend)

It is stated in "Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals" that Nial Declann was adept at battle meditation and was using his mentalic influence at the Battle of Endor. When he felt the Galactic Emperor's death, he immediately stopped and ran to the throne room, and was killed en route by the Death Star's destruction. Therefore, although Thrawn and C'baoth were correct in the broad outline of what had happened, they were incorrect about the details. The Galactic Emperor's death did cause a massive breakdown in morale among the Imperial forces because of the dark side becoming 'diffuse' and 'nondirected' (ref. Return of the Jedi novelization), but this was combined with the negative side effects of the abrupt ceasing of Declann's battle meditation.

Why would the 'born force sensitives' have a greater chance of survival before they had any training? Luke didn't seem to have any special powers before he met Ben Kenobi, and Leia as well until the end of ROTJ.

Yes, I realize Anakin seemed to be special, but he was "the Chosen One" an amazingly powerful one, and could be an exception. The son and daughter of the Chosen One don't seem to be so gifted...



Also, Dark Empire/2 introduces us to the idea that Palpatine can make a non-force sensitive into one, just by giving them some of his power. This idea of "introducing" force power into people who otherwise wouldn't have it is continued in the Jedi Knight series of video games, to the point where you even have a technology that can turn non-adepts into at least low level force powered individuals (and their powers disappear after the technology is disabled). That this technology is supposedly based on ancient "Sith" artifacts also indicates it's been around for thousands of years... And even the fact that Sith ghosts can "possess" a living body and grant it their own powers, seems also to indicate that you don't have to be born a force sensitive to become one.

Kurgan wrote:Why would the 'born force sensitives' have a greater chance of survival before they had any training? Luke didn't seem to have any special powers before he met Ben Kenobi, and Leia as well until the end of ROTJ.

Yes, I realize Anakin seemed to be special, but he was "the Chosen One" an amazingly powerful one, and could be an exception. The son and daughter of the Chosen One don't seem to be so gifted...

The only significant untrained manifestation of Anakin's force powers was his fine motor skills and precog enhanced reflexes, all of which were subconcious and drew little attention to themselves or Anakin except for some small local notoriety for being a human child who can pod race.

Luke and Leia's pre-training manifestations could have been similarily subtle, for Luke it was probably very similar to Anakin's abilities, heightened senses and reflexes. Granted there is in all probability a high degree of standardization of flight controls throughout the GFFA, he still showed a great deal of prowess as a gunner and starfighter pilot with no formal training except stunt flying with his friends.

For Leia who while receiving combat training, was rarely in physical danger, her subconcious force abilities most likely gravitated towards an ability to perceive the intentions of others and general empathy, things which would allow her to be successful in politics and earn her positions after her family ties got her foot in the door.

My point is, Luke and Leia could have been killed off very easily, had they not had character shields, since they had no force training.

We know how easily Jedi can be killed, much less a born force sensitive with no training.

Luke wasn't even detectable by Lord Vader until he actively used the Force during the Death Star trench run (and Vader didn't immediately know it was his son). He never detected Leia until Luke revealed it to him accidentally on the second death star four years later, despite having "interrogated" her and been in close contact several times before.

On the contrary, I think as a politician, and as somebody aiding the Rebellion against her own government, Leia was probably regularly in physical danger. That they might not have engaged in hand to hand combat or blaster fighting at every opportunity itself doesn't matter. The point is she could have been assasinated or had her ship shot down in all that time. Take a look at the dangerous lives of other political figures in the movies or even public figures in our own world. Even visiting war torn areas or crime infested planets is a risk. Coruscant itself isn't exactly a safe haven either.


I'm fighting two notions here... one, that force sensitives would be immediately detected by the authorities, and two, that they would have built in defenses to hold their own above mere mortals, simply by virtue of being born force sensitives.

I think it's more likely that many of these natural force sensitives could have lived their lives without knowing their potential or been killed off before they could realize it, and the ones who do become Jedi were simply lucky, especially in the pre/post-Republic years.

Kurgan wrote:Why would the 'born force sensitives' have a greater chance of survival before they had any training? Luke didn't seem to have any special powers before he met Ben Kenobi, and Leia as well until the end of ROTJ.

Yes, I realize Anakin seemed to be special, but he was "the Chosen One" an amazingly powerful one, and could be an exception. The son and daughter of the Chosen One don't seem to be so gifted...

Well, as I remember the RoTJ novelisation describes Leia as being a better pilot at 300 mph than the scout troopers because of the talent in the family.
Sensing the danger a few moment earlier can help a lot to survive a war as a civilian in my opinion.
However as I did not counted it as a factor it does not affect that guess.