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Not sure if this has been done before, but searches for "or vs nr" and "old republic vs new republic" didn't bring up anything relevant.

A portal opens up somewhere in the Mid Rim with the Star Wars galaxy at a time just prior to the events of The Phantom Menace on one end and the Star Wars galaxy at a time just prior to the events of Vector Prime on the other. For the purposes of this debate, the two galaxies will be considered to be independant copies of each other (so that events taking place on the OR side won't affect the history of the NR side) and no one on either side will consider the ramifications of fighting their earlier selves. They just want to blow the crap out of each other.

So, in an all-out war between the Old Republic and the New, who wins?

EDIT: Also, neither Palpatine's rise to power nor the imminent Vong invasion will occur for the purposes of this debate. This is purely a question of military strength.

The New Republic has superior weapons, firepower, a more experienced starfleet and knows how to fight a major war. They also don't have to deal with the Trade Federation in control of shipping. The New Republic actually has a military and brought down a more powerful, albiet evil and facist, form of the Old Republic.

This makes up for fewer Jedi and a less stable galatic situation.

This is a really unfair scenario you picked a time when the Old Republic had no real military, aside from its limited starfleet and local forces. For this to really be fair it should be the GAR vs NR.

The New Republic has superior weapons, firepower, a more experienced starfleet and knows how to fight a major war

This actually argues against the New Republic, they were so unstable that they could not survive without war, I doubt they would be able to invade the Old Republic as they would have issues keeping the peace in their own galaxy

They also don't have to deal with the Trade Federation in control of shipping.

The issues with the Trade Federation were a mostly a result of Palpatine, who going by the OP doesn't exist. They would probably stay on the side of the Old Republic

The New Republic actually has a military and brought down a more powerful, albiet evil and facist, form of the Old Republic.

The Empire was set up that if the Emperor fell it Empire fell, the Old Republic does not have that problem.

This makes up for fewer Jedi and a less stable galatic situation.

Not really

I disagree. The Republic Starfleet's shortcomings come from Senate failures and political turmoil, not form the military itself. Ackbar and Wedge are quite compotent and they have quite an impressive starfighter corps made of hardened vets and well trained pilots. You cannot say that the failures of the government thus means that the military is not compotent. The fleet amnaged to handle brushfires like the Black Fleet Crisis and mounted successfel campaigns against the Empire during some of the worst infighting during the Solo government.

When i was talking about the Trade Federation, I was refering to their monopoly on trade, not on their military. The NR has compotention in the private sector and has a pretty good economy.

I was also saying that the Empire, being the replacement of the Old Republic and far more robust and powerful, was defeated by the NR. If the NR can handle the Empire, then they can handle the pre-PM Republic quite easily.

The reason I said that the Jedi would not give the OR an edge was that they were outgunned by the NR military and, as we saw in the prequal trilogy, military might can bring them down.

Admiral Johnason wrote:I was also saying that the Empire, being the replacement of the Old Republic and far more robust and powerful, was defeated by the NR. If the NR can handle the Empire, then they can handle the pre-PM Republic quite easily.

First, competent and competition.

Second, that's a rather moronic comparison. The Empire of the movie-era is not the Empire after the fall of Coruscant under Isard. Only Thrawn and the Emperor clones commanded nearly all remaining Imperial forces during their reigns, and both of them were on the route to crushing the New Republic until their deaths. The Old Republic was centralized relative to the New Republic.

StarshipTitanic wrote:

Admiral Johnason wrote:I was also saying that the Empire, being the replacement of the Old Republic and far more robust and powerful, was defeated by the NR. If the NR can handle the Empire, then they can handle the pre-PM Republic quite easily.

First, competent and competition.

Second, that's a rather moronic comparison. The Empire of the movie-era is not the Empire after the fall of Coruscant under Isard. Only Thrawn and the Emperor clones commanded nearly all remaining Imperial forces during their reigns, and both of them were on the route to crushing the New Republic until their deaths. The Old Republic was centralized relative to the New Republic.

Okay, your right, but I was only using the Empire for comparison. It was the only major power I could think of that would be able to be compared to the OR due to it's size and numbers. And yes, for the majority of the GCW, the NR faced off aginast a divisive and less centralized enemy.

Thrawn only enjoyed the support of a sizable, but still fractional portion of the former Imperial assets still viable in the GFFA. The Pentastar Alignment did not side with Thrawn, and composed a rump state over much of Tarkin's Oversector Outer (a very large percentage of the Outer Rim with some Mid Rim territory). Prince-Admiral Krennel of the Cuitric Hegemony did not side with Thrawn, nor did Teradoc, Devalardus, Karrsk, or any other of the major warlords. Keep in mind Teradoc was a powerful enough third faction to vie credibly with both the remaining "legitimate" Imperial factions aligned under the Imperial Ruling Council and the New Republic in the contest over the late Warlord Zsinj's territories (which had at one point amounted to a third of the galaxy). And of course, the Deep Core storehouses, fleet concentrations, and strongholds which remained dormant and subject to Palpatine's rule.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Thrawn only enjoyed the support of a sizable, but still fractional portion of the former Imperial assets still viable in the GFFA. The Pentastar Alignment did not side with Thrawn, and composed a rump state over much of Tarkin's Oversector Outer (a very large percentage of the Outer Rim with some Mid Rim territory). Prince-Admiral Krennel of the Cuitric Hegemony did not side with Thrawn, nor did Teradoc, Devalardus, Karrsk, or any other of the major warlords. Keep in mind Teradoc was a powerful enough third faction to vie credibly with both the remaining "legitimate" Imperial factions aligned under the Imperial Ruling Council and the New Republic in the contest over the late Warlord Zsinj's territories (which had at one point amounted to a third of the galaxy). And of course, the Deep Core storehouses, fleet concentrations, and strongholds which remained dormant and subject to Palpatine's rule.

Facts which only back up the claim that the New Republic did not stand a chance against the Empire, even when it was only partly unified... until it broke apart again of course...

btw tiny nitpick: it's harrsk, not karrsk

The Galactic Republic would have a much larger starfleet, by dint of the fact that it could call upon sector forces and local navies of much larger size than the New republic.

While they might not have been as effective as per ICS stating that pre-accalamator ships were "short" range ships,it should be more than sufficient to fight the NR fleet prior to Vector Prime to a standstill. Furthermore, we learn from Vector Prime that the fleet had difficulty retaining soldiers as many vets retired and less soldiers joined, due to the lure of the private sector. It would appear that the NRDF underwent a peace dividend as well, and this clearly argues against it being more experienced and able at large scale operations against the Galactic Republic.


It would appear that the competition would be more on "who could mobilise more resources faster", rather than a straight forward campaign between both sides.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Thrawn only enjoyed the support of a sizable, but still fractional portion of the former Imperial assets still viable in the GFFA. The Pentastar Alignment did not side with Thrawn, and composed a rump state over much of Tarkin's Oversector Outer (a very large percentage of the Outer Rim with some Mid Rim territory). Prince-Admiral Krennel of the Cuitric Hegemony did not side with Thrawn, nor did Teradoc, Devalardus, Karrsk, or any other of the major warlords. Keep in mind Teradoc was a powerful enough third faction to vie credibly with both the remaining "legitimate" Imperial factions aligned under the Imperial Ruling Council and the New Republic in the contest over the late Warlord Zsinj's territories (which had at one point amounted to a third of the galaxy). And of course, the Deep Core storehouses, fleet concentrations, and strongholds which remained dormant and subject to Palpatine's rule.

Where is it said they didn't? Zahn didn't mention warlordism in his Thrawn trilogy (obviously becuase they hadn't been invented yet). It's entirely possible for the warlords to have contributed to Thrawn's campaigns as an attempt to retain some power in the event of a resurgent Empire. Unless, of course, a chronology or biography book mentions that he wasn't assisted.

Prince Admiral Krennel did infact help Thrawn. He provided munitions and troops. Admitidly it was minimal and begrudged help.

StarshipTitanic wrote:Where is it said they didn't? Zahn didn't mention warlordism in his Thrawn trilogy (obviously becuase they hadn't been invented yet). It's entirely possible for the warlords to have contributed to Thrawn's campaigns as an attempt to retain some power in the event of a resurgent Empire. Unless, of course, a chronology or biography book mentions that he wasn't assisted.

Did your mom do kegstands while you were in her womb? Are you asking me to prove a negative? The Essential Chronology makes reference that ALL Imperialist factions joined up with Palpatine when he returned, and he did a better job of reuniting than Thrawn did. Anyway, we know from the EU they exist, and no sources say they joined Thrawn. In fact, that Palpatine had to demand their allegiance personally implies they were not aligned with the Empire yet. That and the unexpected attack at the rear of the NR's front by forces from the Core Worlds also makes it clear. These warlords were on the other side of the Republic from Thrawn and lifted not a finger until after he died and Palpatine was controlling things, either openly or clandestinely. We know they exist, we know before Thrawn they were not aligned and we know after Palpatine had to guarentee their allegiance. Is the logical conclusion without any data on Thrawn that he united them? No.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Did your mom do kegstands while you were in her womb? Are you asking me to prove a negative?

I'm asking you to back up your claims, moron. You named specific warlords and stated their probable allegiances as definite fact, it's not my fault you can't provide conclusive evidence. As Lord Pounder pointed out, you're wrong about Krennel. You should have said that the implication is that the warlords didn't assist Thrawn, because that's all you have.

The Essential Chronology makes reference that ALL Imperialist factions joined up with Palpatine when he returned, and he did a better job of reuniting than Thrawn did. Anyway, we know from the EU they exist, and no sources say they joined Thrawn. In fact, that Palpatine had to demand their allegiance personally implies they were not aligned with the Empire yet. That and the unexpected attack at the rear of the NR's front by forces from the Core Worlds also makes it clear. These warlords were on the other side of the Republic from Thrawn and lifted not a finger until after he died and Palpatine was controlling things, either openly or clandestinely. We know they exist, we know before Thrawn they were not aligned and we know after Palpatine had to guarentee their allegiance. Is the logical conclusion without any data on Thrawn that he united them? No.

And yet the Empire was strong enough after Thrawn's death to reconquer Coruscant before fragmenting once again before the Emperor returned. This seems to indicate Thrawn has at least some effect on the unity of the warlords and Empire.

I think people are overestimating the unity and stability of the OR. In Outbound Flight it's stated that the OR has so many internal problems that they aren't interested in foreign adventures and would be at a disadvantage if invaded. The only thing that kept the OR from being just like the NR is the thousands of Jedi running around stamping out brushfires. In fact it always seemed to me that the NR was just a copy of the OR without the Jedi to keep the peace and no adequate replacement. This does indicate the NR was rather short-sighted that they would just put up a replica of the OR with all its faults and no Jedi or even some form of replacement for Jedi. It could be argued that the Imperial military had to be as large as it was just to keep the peace in place of the Jedi.

It should be further noted that there existed an anti-Jedi sentiment in the Senate and NR which was best exemplified by the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion. No doubt Palpatine's anti-Jedi propaganda still existed in some way.

NRS Guardian wrote:I think people are overestimating the unity and stability of the OR. In Outbound Flight it's stated that the OR has so many internal problems that they aren't interested in foreign adventures and would be at a disadvantage if invaded. The only thing that kept the OR from being just like the NR is the thousands of Jedi running around stamping out brushfires. In fact it always seemed to me that the NR was just a copy of the OR without the Jedi to keep the peace and no adequate replacement. This does indicate the NR was rather short-sighted that they would just put up a replica of the OR with all its faults and no Jedi or even some form of replacement for Jedi. It could be argued that the Imperial military had to be as large as it was just to keep the peace in place of the Jedi.

I think that is why they no longer exist and were replaced by the GA in the New Jedi Order.

NRS Guardian wrote:I think people are overestimating the unity and stability of the OR. In Outbound Flight it's stated that the OR has so many internal problems that they aren't interested in foreign adventures and would be at a disadvantage if invaded. The only thing that kept the OR from being just like the NR is the thousands of Jedi running around stamping out brushfires. In fact it always seemed to me that the NR was just a copy of the OR without the Jedi to keep the peace and no adequate replacement. This does indicate the NR was rather short-sighted that they would just put up a replica of the OR with all its faults and no Jedi or even some form of replacement for Jedi. It could be argued that the Imperial military had to be as large as it was just to keep the peace in place of the Jedi.

Except that this has no bearing on the warfighting capability of the Old Republic.

We already know from the ISB that the OR military is a mere shadow of the GE. And no one disagrees with the fact that the NR is an attempt to replicate the OR. However, the fact remains that the OR has the luxury of a navy that has been untouched by decades of a devastating civil war and the economic disruption that entails.

The advantage of the NR in that it has a relatively more experienced starfleet and army and has gone to war before, although at this point in time, it has also been gutted as a form of "peace dividend".

Does anyone actually have the numbers of the Republic's navy?

I thought that the Republic was forced to dismantle it's military before PM due to the failure of the Kantana incident and was relegated to having nothing more than a glorified police force that could only handle pirates extremeists and the systems themselves were the ones that had true militaries.

Admiral Johnason wrote:Does anyone actually have the numbers of the Republic's navy?

I thought that the Republic was forced to dismantle it's military before PM due to the failure of the Kantana incident and was relegated to having nothing more than a glorified police force that could only handle pirates extremeists and the systems themselves were the ones that had true militaries.

The dismantling of the military occured during the Ruusan Reformation. Most of the Republic's army and navy became part of the Judicial Department, and what remained became the purely cermonial Republic "Army".

The failure of the Katana incident merely proved in the Senate's eyes that the whole affair was a waste of money and gave them the excuse to shut down any further research on it.

StarshipTitanic wrote:I'm asking you to back up your claims, moron.

Prove "the warlords did not support Thrawn" is asking to prove a negative. The warlords in most cases were not said to support Thrawn, the warlords in most cases specifically attacked after Thrawn from the Deep Core outward using materiel which Thrawn conspicuously did not have at his disposal and at a front he had to approach the long way (from Bilbringi inward to Coruscant, rather than the much briefer Deep Core to Coruscant route). The default position is that Thrawn lacked warlord support, especially those who orchestrated the assault on the Core after Thrawn's death. Evidence is required to counter that claim and explain why they did not support Thrawn's campaign despite having both the materiel and having an open rear to attack.

StarshipTitanic wrote:You named specific warlords and stated their probable allegiances as definite fact, it's not my fault you can't provide conclusive evidence.

Krennel sent money and token resources and troops. His warfleet and armies remained at home. If anything, this is support for the position that warlords remained mostly on the sidelines of Thrawn's war.

StarshipTitanic wrote:As Lord Pounder pointed out, you're wrong about Krennel. You should have said that the implication is that the warlords didn't assist Thrawn, because that's all you have.

Its just like atheism. If there's no evidence they all joined up with Thrawn, than the sensible conclusion is that they did not align with him.

StarshipTitanic wrote:And yet the Empire was strong enough after Thrawn's death to reconquer Coruscant before fragmenting once again before the Emperor returned. This seems to indicate Thrawn has at least some effect on the unity of the warlords and Empire.

[i]The Essential Chronology[/i], page 89 wrote:"Meanwhile, New Republic forces were amazed at the ease with which they swept up small pieces of the Empire, as if the IMperial fleet had gone into hiding."

[i]The Essential Chronology[/i], page 90 wrote:In only a short time since the death of Thrawn, the Empire had lost nearly all its recently won territory. Tasting victory, the New Republic fleet advanced outward into Imperially held sections of the Rim, leaving Coruscant and the Core Worlds relatively unprotected.

Point of fact: the Empire-under-Thrawn (which is described as exclusive of Krennel's dominion both in Isard's Revenge and in The Essential Chronology) was almost back to under 25% of the galaxy ensconced almost entirely on the Rim when Palpatine returned. Whatever unifying power Thrawn exerted, it had failed almost entirely within six months of his death, the Empire returning to the status quo before he even returned.

[i]The Essential Chronology[/i], page 90 wrote:"Immediately after the defeat of Admiral Krennel, the Imperial fleet commanders [described in the Dark Empire prologue as "former Starfleet commanders"; i.e., warlords] joined with surviving members of the Emperor's ruling council, a development no one had predicted. The unified Imperial force launched from the Deep Core with stunning violence, surprising the New Republic, whose own fleet was hopelessly out of position on the Rim.

If the warlords' unity with the Ruling Circle is unprecedented, as implied, and unexpected, than it stands to reason that they probably were not just barely before aligned with one another under Thrawn. Also, this warfleet is from the warlords and secret Imperial enclaves in the Deep Core, not from the Empire-under-Thrawn, now shriveling under the attack of the New Republic on the Rim. The warlords' joining with the Empire was a new development, and they came from a front not active during Thrawn's war. Conclusion follows they did not participate in Thrawn's bid for power.

[i]The Essential Chronology[/i], page 90 wrote:The resurrected Palpatine had done a better job of reuniting the Imperial factions than anyone before him, including Thrawn. Only the Emperor could rule the Empire. Surviving warlords such as Harrsk, Delvardus, and Taradoc swore obedience to the same master and fought under the same banner, as did the loyal Imperial forces under Pellaeon."

Well, that's pretty explicit. Palpatine did a better job, so he united more factions, and then it goes on to list a group of warlords that osteniably did not fight under Thrawn. It also deserves mention that immediately prior to Thrawn's appearance Taradoc had openly been engaged in fighting against the Empire. And Ardus Kaine's "miniempire", the Pentastar Alignment, remained independent until his death during Shadow Hand when he joined up again under Palpatine.

Moreover, don't bitch at me when the original post the debate started over claimed both Palpatine's clone and Thrawn united everybody. Kaine, Delvardus, Taradoc, Harrsk, all fought as mere flag officers under a reformed starfleet under Palpatine's clone. The best comparison you can offer is that Krennel sent some cash? That's nowhere near the same level of comparison, unless you think the money Saudi royals send to madrassas is equivalent to them placing Saudi National Army units under the command of Al Quaeda.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Prove "the warlords did not support Thrawn" is asking to prove a negative.

You wrote:Prince-Admiral Krennel of the Cuitric Hegemony did not side with Thrawn, nor did Teradoc, Devalardus, Karrsk, or any other of the major warlords.

For the second time, it's your claim. No where in canon (to our knowledge) is it stated "Krennel/Teradoc/Devalardus/Harrsk did not side with Thrawn during Thrawn's campaign," so don't go around saying it. I agree now that it's heavily implied, though.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Snip rest of post.

That's all I asked for in my first post. A "chronology or biography book." Thank you, after much delay, for actually providing it so I can now understand that Thrawn had considerably less support than I previously thought he had.