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blow up planets with a Death Star

and

BDZ the homes of probably millions.

I mean, this guy is worse than Stalin, why is he so ruthless to his galaxy's citizens?

How do you keep malcontents in line?
Convince them the penalty for screwing about is going to be swift and ver very bad.
BDZ and the DS arent really for a purely military objective...they are both meant to inspire terror in those that would defy the Emperor.

The Star Wars galaxy has quadrillions of people. Wiping out a planet for them is like the Soviet Union shooting a few dozen dissidents, which is what Alderaan at least was.

There is a HUGE difference in a dozen dissidents and MILLIONS of Imperial citiczens.

Actually billions, maybe trillions is more like it. And while to us that is a fantasicly enourmous number, in the SW galaxy that nothing. I literaly is the equivilent to a dozen people in a country such as Russia. People in the SW galaxy would take a comment like "Yeah a billion people died yesterday!" And they'll look at you like, "And a billion more will die today" kinda way.

The Empire was the legal government of the galaxy.
Destroying rebellious worlds is not evil.
Alderaan was openly supporting the Rebellion, which had the goal of overthrowing the 100% legal Imperial rule. As a supporter of the Rebellion, it was as such a legetimate target for a military strike since it was territory of the enemy. The fact that civillians were there may be unfortunate, but there were also civillians when Dresden was bombarded, but you wouldn't describe that as evil, since it happened during an open war. Same is true for Alderaan

Maybe someone should do a remix of the Soviet National Anthem for the Empire.

What is the Imperial anthem anyway (besides Imperial March- I don't think they play that when the Emperor gets off Imperial Tyrant One)

Cpt_Frank wrote:The Empire was the legal government of the galaxy.
Destroying rebellious worlds is not evil.
Alderaan was openly supporting the Rebellion, which had the goal of overthrowing the 100% legal Imperial rule. As a supporter of the Rebellion, it was as such a legetimate target for a military strike since it was territory of the enemy. The fact that civillians were there may be unfortunate, but there were also civillians when Dresden was bombarded, but you wouldn't describe that as evil, since it happened during an open war. Same is true for Alderaan

Hypothetical situation: Say the USSR comes back to power. The rest of the world is for some reason unable to respond, and the Soviets annex the Czech Republic. Well, the former Czech government and a fair number of citizens decide they don't like the oppressive Communist regime, so they begin to organize a revolt. The USSR catches wind of this and deals with it by nuking all former Czech land into complete annihilation. Every city, every farm, every forest and grassland, completey destroyed all because a few citizens didn't like tyranny. How, pray tell, could this not be an evil act?

JediNeophyte wrote:

Cpt_Frank wrote:The Empire was the legal government of the galaxy.
Destroying rebellious worlds is not evil.
Alderaan was openly supporting the Rebellion, which had the goal of overthrowing the 100% legal Imperial rule. As a supporter of the Rebellion, it was as such a legetimate target for a military strike since it was territory of the enemy. The fact that civillians were there may be unfortunate, but there were also civillians when Dresden was bombarded, but you wouldn't describe that as evil, since it happened during an open war. Same is true for Alderaan

Hypothetical situation: Say the USSR comes back to power. The rest of the world is for some reason unable to respond, and the Soviets annex the Czech Republic. Well, the former Czech government and a fair number of citizens decide they don't like the oppressive Communist regime, so they begin to organize a revolt. The USSR catches wind of this and deals with it by nuking all former Czech land into complete annihilation. Every city, every farm, every forest and grassland, completey destroyed all because a few citizens didn't like tyranny. How, pray tell, could this not be an evil act?

The situation you construct is different.
Palpatine's Empire was a follow-up of the Old Republic, essentially it was the Old Republic (heavily) re-organized, it didn't go and conquer all the planets it possessed, most of them were already part of the OR.
Moreover, most of the people supported Palpatine becoming Emperor since they felt, probably because of the victorious clone wars, that he could protect them and their interests.
See the difference?

Heres a better example:

Theres a few guys in the US buying up lots of guns and weapons and they have openly declared that they will use them against the US government. They start by going around and killing police officers and destroying equipment but soon they begin to be persued by military personel. They use machine guns and rockets to kill and destroy the few personel and equipment sent after them. Now, if youre the US government, do you kill them all, or politely request they stop?

The US would ask them to stop, but at the same time issue orders for capture on sight and if they don't surrender the shot to kill.
The Empire is not evil, just the Emperor.

kojikun wrote:Heres a better example:

Theres a few guys in the US buying up lots of guns and weapons and they have openly declared that they will use them against the US government. They start by going around and killing police officers and destroying equipment but soon they begin to be persued by military personel. They use machine guns and rockets to kill and destroy the few personel and equipment sent after them. Now, if youre the US government, do you kill them all, or politely request they stop?

Yeah that's what I was trying to say.
Adding to that, if a city defected and joined them, it would become a legitimate military target now wouldn't it? Just like Alderaan.

The Empire was simply doing its duty to protect its other citizens from open rebellion.

1. The Empire was a legal government. Hell, in VOTF, Leia openly admits it was.
2. Alderaan was a legedimate target. It had one of the best defenses. It was openly supporting the Rebellion. Withen a year it would have re-armed. It was the Hiroshima of SW.
3. While billions may seem huge to us, it's NOTHING in the SW universe. It would be like a few hundread dead.
4. Despite what many fans would have you believe, BDZs were EXTREMELY rare. Afterall, the planet was useless to both sides.
5. The Rebellion wasn't innocent either.

The Death of one is a tragedy, the death of millions is just a statistic.

Vympel wrote:Maybe someone should do a remix of the Soviet National Anthem for the Empire.

What is the Imperial anthem anyway (besides Imperial March- I don't think they play that when the Emperor gets off Imperial Tyrant One)

Don't know, but the Culture's anthem is titled "Lick me out".

FaxModem1 wrote:blow up planets with a Death Star

and

BDZ the homes of probably millions.

I mean, this guy is worse than Stalin, why is he so ruthless to his galaxy's citizens?

I would compare the emperor to most american presidents. a few terrorists, a few rabid militiamen - the ratios are the same, and so are the justifications.

cost of doing business, really, in any government. there are always those who will disagree to the death. yours or theirs.

Vympel wrote:What is the Imperial anthem anyway

The same song used for Sesame Street.[/b]

Death by government... probably one of the leading causes of human loss of life throughout history.

Like it or not.

Still, I think killing a few billion people, especially because of "guilt by association" is evil, period.

In the movie, its made clear that the "real" reason for Alderaan's destruction was to test out the Death Star and create some "fear" among the galactic populance (in addition to trying to force Princess Leia to reveal what she knew about the Rebels and wipe out a few pockets of anti-Imperials that might be hiding out on the planet).

Wiping out an entire planet to kill a few hundred (?) thousand (?) even million dissidents is definately overkill.

Send in a few troops or secret police (this is the Empire after all) and you could weed them out and still keep the planet, with its loyal citizens intact.

Don't tell me on a planet of billions or trillions, every man, woman and child on the face of the world is 100% against the Empire! Even Hitler and Stalin had their loyalists.


Oh I know, everybody has said already that the US is evil because it blew up civilians with Nukes, or because the allies and axis bombed civies in WW2.

Well you know what? My point doesn't hedge on the notion that the US or the Allies were not guilty of evil during war either.

I am judging the actions of the people, which they conciously chose to do. Would the destruction of Alderaan avoid a greater evil? No, unless you could show me that Alderaan was actively constructing a Death Star to blow up planets they didn't like I suppose. ; )

See, the problem? Rule by fear is an essential element of tyranny, and nobody wants to live under such a regime unless they're one of the protected elites (ie: the government).... ie: the oppressors.

Loyal Imperial citizens indeed have VERY MUCH TO FEAR from their own government... all they have to do is live on the same planet as somebody who doesn't like the Empire!

Flame away. ; )

yep. some innocents were almost certainly killed. as I said, price of running things. if alderaan wasnt neutralized, and the rebellion it espoused nipped in the bud, then the galactic civil war - costing no doubt trillions of lives - would occur. the destruction of terrorism's main backer and the threat of similar would silence all rebellion.

yes, the empire is ruthless. but I find the war that it's removal caused even more distasteful.

To add a few quick clarifications...

The Empire COULD have ordered an orbital bombardment of the areas known to be holding the "terrorist cells" killed their enemies and then used their propaganda machine (and their loyalists on the planet) to smooth things over.

But no, someone one might agrue.. that would just solidify support for the rebels against the Empire because of atrocities... you have to finish the job and leave no evidence.

Again, I'd disagree, because you can't hide the fact that an entire world of billions of people was just blown up. This wasn't Kamino, or some other backwater planet few knew existed. It was a prominent planet, homeworld of at least two prominent members of the senate, and important enough to be the focus of Imperial attention (which was fatal in this case).

And besides, the Death Star's mere existence (to say nothing of its use on civilians) was enough to further galvanize the rebels on COUNTLESS OTHER WORLDS to rebel. No one is safe, if you can destroy a world at will, especially without the Emperor's express permission (where was it said that Palpatine ordered Alderaan's destruction? it appears by all counts to be something that Tarkin simply decided on, based on his authority as regional governor). Whomever controls the Death Star is judge, jury, and executioner. I even wonder... Tarkin and Vader must have had incredible trust and the Emperor's confidence... what if Tarkin was a madman who got together with Vader and decided to simply wipe out Coruscant and take over the galaxy? They had enough firepower to make a serious bid for it, what with the Death Star and its complement of fighters....

But I digress! ; )

the sheer existence of the death star would shut down all rebellion. any whisper of revolution would kill you, your family, your friends, your cat, your goldfish, the person you met on the street, and the football team based on the other continent. anyone who was thought to be a rebel would be turned in instantly, for the fear of such destruction.

obviously, vader held palpy's trust. he felt he could kill his son in front of him, right?

My argument is that the presence of the Death Star (combined with the will to use it) had precisely the opposite effect.

People knew that NO ONE was safe, and so they would do ANYTHING to destroy the death star (and, to coincide with it, the ones willing to use it... the Emperor, and his admirals/govenors).

One could apply a somewhat similar analysis to the United States and the Soviet Union.

Both were super-powers in their time (and the US arguably still is) both in terms of military prowess, territorial possession, economic power (at least until the USSR really started to loss ground towards the end), influence and the presence of Nukes.

Now, we know what Nukes did to Japan at the end of WW2. Devestating... ended the war. Forced surrender. Of course, we know the nukes the USSR and the US had in the decades that followed put those weapons to shame in terms of devestation and overall fear-factor. Then we have bio-weapons.

But let's think about this... the presence of nukes hasn't stopped various countries from doing terrorist actions against the US or the USSR. And it hasn't made people instantly surrender when the US or the USSR enters the battlefield. Both powers were involved in numerous wars and conflicts throught their nuclear possession history.

India and Pakistan have nukes, so does China.. yet people still fight with them. People still commit terrorist actions in those countries.

The mere possession of a weapon doesn't necessarily stop rebellion, I'd argue that it merely adds fuel to the fire.


Ie: the rebels think "we better stop them before they use that weapon they've got.. or we better strike hard in order to get that weapon so we can have it ourselves to use against them"


Or, the weapon is so powerful to preclude the practicality of its frequent use. What good is an Empire if there's nobody left alive in it, or if everything is destroyed? So you don't use it.. and the threat of its use becomes less serious.

All in all, the Death Star may have been built to keep the systems in line, but it failed miserably in this task, design flaw or not, it was more of a liability than a cure-all solution to the problem of rebellion, as the films demonstrated TWICE.

It would have been somewhat interesting if it had happened in Star Wars that the rebellion was able to construct their own Death Star.. and you have a "cold war" between the two powers to somewhat parallel the US/USSR cold war.

But then, maybe the analogy would have been too heavy handed. Oh well... you need a huge industrial base to build something like that, and the Empire was able to build two of them (at least), not to mention their other stuff... fighters, SDs, etc.

Cpt_Frank wrote:The Empire was the legal government of the galaxy.
Destroying rebellious worlds is not evil.
Alderaan was openly supporting the Rebellion, which had the goal of overthrowing the 100% legal Imperial rule. As a supporter of the Rebellion, it was as such a legetimate target for a military strike since it was territory of the enemy. The fact that civillians were there may be unfortunate, but there were also civillians when Dresden was bombarded, but you wouldn't describe that as evil, since it happened during an open war. Same is true for Alderaan

Incorrect. The Viceroy of Alderaan was funnelling funds to a tiny, nebulous group of terrorists. The appropriate action would be to sieze control of the Alderaanian local government, arrest, interrogate, and try the Viceroy, and cease all funneling of funds.

Instead a civilian governor from the Outer Rim used a secretly built and newly comissioned weapon on a peaceful and weaponless (which it was; unless you count the shield as an offensive weapons system) Core World, destroying it and its population indescriminately without approval from the Imperial High Command nor the Emperor to affectively end the treason of a single man and mostly to persuade a single traitorous Senator to reveal intelligence about the Rebellion. Need I also remind you of the seeming abundance of Alderaanian officers in the Imperial Navy? And thus the apparent loyalty of the general populace? Can you show me an example of a single pre-ANH Alderaanian Rebel not belonging to or associated with the Organa Royal Family?

I believe the average Alderaanian would've been appalled by their Viceroy's trechery.

And your comparison the Dresden is weak at best. I personally find the firebombing of Dresden apalling and due to the incompetence of the Generals who boasted they could end the war from the air, and the rest of the major bombings to the incompetance and conservatism of Eisenhower when he had the oppurtunity to launch a narrow attack deep into Germany toward Berlin in '44 before the Bulge, and therefore not forcing Allied aviators to commit mass-murder. All that notwithstanding, it was in open war, you're right.

I find the destruction of Alderaan apalling due to its indescriminate collateral damage in comparison to the objective, the disproportionate response for the rather limited treason, the actual reason for the attack (to affect Leia), and the conscious knowledge by the commanding officer that this was no military target. And it was a loyal world at peacetime while dealing with comparitively insignificant terrorists.