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The Jedi were renowned as guardians of peace in the old republic for thousands of years. They were always the good guys. Yet when Palpatine proposes something as insane as a Jedi rebellion everyone agrees with him. The very people who were shedding their blood on the front lines of clone war just days ago suddenly turned against the Republic ! Does that appear as even remotely believable ?

The Jedi are an organization that defended the Republic since the beginning. Everyone in GFFA should know all the heroic things they have done over the millennia. It is utterly stupid to expect the Jedi to rebel out of the blue with no probable cause. How exactly did Palpatine convince the senate and the public to buy his insane claim ?

Palpatine was a very carasmatic leader. He was loved by the prople of the OR way more than any Jedi, including Skywalker and Kenobi. That combined with a very clever media campain, making big of the fact that it was a former Jedi who lead the Seppies and highlighting other "fallen" jedi made it easy for the public to doubt the Jedi. The fact is Mace Windu and Co did try and stage an illegal coup. Palpatine recorded and played it for the Senate. The Jedi damned themselves, though it should be noted many Senators did not turn against the Jedi, Bail Organa for example.

Guess I don't have much to add, but to paraphrase.

Palps told the public and the Senate that the Jedi orchestrated the Clone Wars, and said that it was all a sham so that they could take control of the Republic. Recall that the de facto leader of the Separatists was Count Dooku.. a former Jedi. More incriminating was Mace Windu's "assassination attempt".

Of course, we know it was really Sidious who ran the Clone Wars, but the public didn't.

Lord Pounder wrote:Palpatine recorded and played it for the Senate.

Actually, I suspect he played a completely bogus fabrication, given that that particular point (with the recorder and the lightsabre) was cut from the film.

As stated before Palpatine was a loved figure, but more importantly he comes across as a public figure. Whereas the Jedi are a secret order who guard their secrets and don't allow outside intervention. So to the galaxy at large the Jedi are more myth then real, most people will never even encounter a Jedi and possibily never even hear about them except in tales that sound more fictional then fact.

And since they are a secret society no one knows really what they do, and any fabrications they hear are going to be assumed as fact since their is no evidence to the contrary and the Jedi aren't willing to give up their secrets.

In addition to what has already been said, remember that the Jedi order is tiny compared with the rest of the galaxy, is mystical and mysterious, and the Jedi have in effect magic powers. Even though they are the good guys and all, the general public probably has some underlying fear and distrust of the Jedi.

The Jedi are an organization that defended the Republic since the beginning. Everyone in GFFA should know all the heroic things they have done over the millennia.

Before the Clone Wars, the Republic had been at peace for a millenia. Most of the Jedi's great deeds were now ancient history to most people.

Lastly, Palpatine, either through political manuvering or the Dark Side, controlled the senate, such that those who did not support him were becoming afraid to stand up to him.

NecronLord wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:Palpatine recorded and played it for the Senate.

Actually, I suspect he played a completely bogus fabrication, given that that particular point (with the recorder and the lightsabre) was cut from the film.

It is in the novelization though. And what he recorded and the way he did it, easily cast a very bad light on Mace and the rest of the Jedi.

Even during the Empire, the Emperor is loved by most; all the bad stuff is blamed on the Ruling Council ("The Emperors") that he's supposedly too old and frail to control.

NecronLord wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:Palpatine recorded and played it for the Senate.

Actually, I suspect he played a completely bogus fabrication, given that that particular point (with the recorder and the lightsabre) was cut from the film.

Since the film overrides the novelization, then the recording was probably bogus (although you'd think there would be some serious examination of such a recording, so it would be difficult to fake).

It's possible to partially reconcile a real recording with the novelization if Palpatine shut off the recording tape with a subtle flick of the Force rather than using his lightsaber to destroy the recorder.

NecronLord wrote:was cut from the film.

I would guess that it was never meant to be in it, and was just added to the novel.

It certainly wasn't in the script I read, and that whole portion of the scene goes like the rest of the stuff Stover added.

Also, where is it stated that the Jedi order has to be loved? Look at AOTC where when a "muppet" is jostled by Anakin speeder, the first thing that comes to mind is a exclaimation of anger against the Jedi.

Note: Jedi, not a racist remark, not a remark against rush hour traffic or the local cops or even against lady drivers(:D) but Jedi.


Similarly, when Anakin just simply says Jedi Business in the bar, it just comes off as arrogrance and stuff. Not something that goes for good PR. And Yoda mentions that this was something that more and more jedi were afflicted with.

There's the fact that the Jedi as an Order was as corrupt and defunked as the Republic itself was. The Jedi Order was as much a symbol of the Republic as the Senate itself was.

It was implied a lot through out the various PT novels that the Jedi were view with suspion due to their power and their closed off society. They were far from transperent and from a public point of view, did as they wished.

Now, while an individual Jedi might well indeed be a hero to the public (see Anakin and Obi) the Order itself was view with suspicion. When the Chancilor explained that the Jedi indeed were behind the Clone War to prepare for a coup, and then indeed attempt to assasinate the Chancilor himself, it was easy to condem the Order.

If you take a look at HoloNetNews.com and go through some of the archives, you'll notice a prevailing theme is "Where were the Jedi when this happened? Or this? Or this?". No matter how distant or insignificant the problem is, the Jedi keep getting blamed for not being there when something bad happens. I'll even bet the Jedi get blamed during the Clone Wars whenever Grievious does something horrible as well.

Lord Pounder wrote:Palpatine was a very carasmatic leader. He was loved by the prople of the OR way more than any Jedi, including Skywalker and Kenobi. That combined with a very clever media campain, making big of the fact that it was a former Jedi who lead the Seppies and highlighting other "fallen" jedi made it easy for the public to doubt the Jedi. The fact is Mace Windu and Co did try and stage an illegal coup. Palpatine recorded and played it for the Senate. The Jedi damned themselves, though it should be noted many Senators did not turn against the Jedi, Bail Organa for example.

i wouldnt really say that it was an illegal coup. Its the Jedi' job to keep peace and stabilty in the Republic. It was a legal Jedi action, it just so happens that Palpatine wound up "winning" the fight and he made it sound all illegal and all that beurocratic crap

Tychu wrote:i wouldnt really say that it was an illegal coup.

Listen, there was just a big giant thread about this, and some very smart people came to the conclusion that it was. And so that's all there is to that.

Tychu wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:Palpatine was a very carasmatic leader. He was loved by the prople of the OR way more than any Jedi, including Skywalker and Kenobi. That combined with a very clever media campain, making big of the fact that it was a former Jedi who lead the Seppies and highlighting other "fallen" jedi made it easy for the public to doubt the Jedi. The fact is Mace Windu and Co did try and stage an illegal coup. Palpatine recorded and played it for the Senate. The Jedi damned themselves, though it should be noted many Senators did not turn against the Jedi, Bail Organa for example.

i wouldnt really say that it was an illegal coup. Its the Jedi' job to keep peace and stabilty in the Republic. It was a legal Jedi action, it just so happens that Palpatine wound up "winning" the fight and he made it sound all illegal and all that beurocratic crap

Like I asked in the thread DGG linked...you have proof that it wasn't an illegal coup?

They are the self appointed guardians and Publius more then once pointed out, they had no true legal power...only their say so.

So unless you want to put up some evidence, honestly know that Palpatine didn't make it illegal, they took it upon themselves to commit an illegal action.

It should also be noted that there wasn't a lot of warmth between the Jedi and most of the Senate in the first place. Anakin is repeatedly warned against trusting polititians and the Senate is, of course, notoriously corrupt at that point in time. The Jedi distrust the most popular element of the Senate (i.e. Palpatine and his supporters) and seem to be closest to the principled minority who don't vote Palpatine into absolute power anyway. Considering that the "typical" senator who meets with a Jedi is going to be dealing with aloof, distant being who look at him with some concealed dissapproval and somewhat aligned with the a different political faction, it isn't surprising that they aren't that popular in the Senate.

Doubtless Publius will have additional points to contribute.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Tychu wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:Palpatine was a very carasmatic leader. He was loved by the prople of the OR way more than any Jedi, including Skywalker and Kenobi. That combined with a very clever media campain, making big of the fact that it was a former Jedi who lead the Seppies and highlighting other "fallen" jedi made it easy for the public to doubt the Jedi. The fact is Mace Windu and Co did try and stage an illegal coup. Palpatine recorded and played it for the Senate. The Jedi damned themselves, though it should be noted many Senators did not turn against the Jedi, Bail Organa for example.

i wouldnt really say that it was an illegal coup. Its the Jedi' job to keep peace and stabilty in the Republic. It was a legal Jedi action, it just so happens that Palpatine wound up "winning" the fight and he made it sound all illegal and all that beurocratic crap

Like I asked in the thread DGG linked...you have proof that it wasn't an illegal coup?

They are the self appointed guardians and Publius more then once pointed out, they had no true legal power...only their say so.

So unless you want to put up some evidence, honestly know that Palpatine didn't make it illegal, they took it upon themselves to commit an illegal action.

I missed the whole big thread thing but heres my evidence. After this post im not going to debate it just heres my evidence.
1. Its stated time and again in ROTS and EU that the Jedi are entrusted to the Republic not its ruler (ie. Palps).
2. IN AOTC The Jedi are seen hanging around the Senate and they talk about how far Palpatine has gone with his power and when he should be stopped
3. Obi Wan talks to Anakin about why Palpatine cant be trusted saying that he has changed the rules to stay in power much longer than he should have
4. Palpatine really has no power to impose anything on the Jedi (as in point #1) There fore the Jedi and the Chancellor are 2 seperate entities. So if you want to get technicall
a coup is a force from within the government trying to take power or overthrow the leadership. Since the Jedi get their power from the Senate and not the Chancellor and the Chancellor is elected and gets his power from the Senate as well the Senate is the leader of the Republic

It wasnt until Palpatine changed all the damn rules that he became the ultamate power. Therefore Palpatine made the Jedi seem to have had this whole illegal coup. The Jedi never planned on overthrowing the Senate and putting the Jedi Council in place of the senate they went in to arrest Palpatine and bring him before teh Senate. It wasnt until Mace saw his buddies die that he got mad and at that point had to kill Palpatine.
Palpatine started to change rules in TPM when he was acting as Sidious and talking to Gunray about the blockade. "I will make it legal"

There theres my evidence or my opinion on why it wasnt an illegal Jedi coup.

to the question of the post
It just is logical that when alot of people dont really know what a Jedi is or most actually never really seen or heard of Jedi (those outer rim territories) its pretty easy for the masses to believe lies
I mean last year if you told the majority of Americans that Doctor Who ran around various hospitals healing people alot more people would believe you. Now its about 10 less people but you get the point

Tychu wrote: I missed the whole big thread thing but heres my evidence. After this post im not going to debate it just heres my evidence.
1. Its stated time and again in ROTS and EU that the Jedi are entrusted to the Republic not its ruler (ie. Palps).

So wait, are you saying that the Supreme Chancellor, who's power is given by the Senate......is not a part of the Republic?

And given Palpatine is the leader of the army of the Republic and they are generals...you don't see the complete faulty logic behind this statement as of ROTS?

2. IN AOTC The Jedi are seen hanging around the Senate and they talk about how far Palpatine has gone with his power and when he should be stopped

This has any bearing in what way?

3. Obi Wan talks to Anakin about why Palpatine cant be trusted saying that he has changed the rules to stay in power much longer than he should have

And? It's one man's personal feelings. Still says nothing why the manuver was legal.

4. Palpatine really has no power to impose anything on the Jedi (as in point #1) There fore the Jedi and the Chancellor are 2 seperate entities.

Right, because as the leader of the Senate....the entity they serve, he has no power whatsoever over them.

So if you want to get technicall
a coup is a force from within the government trying to take power or overthrow the leadership. Since the Jedi get their power from the Senate and not the Chancellor and the Chancellor is elected and gets his power from the Senate as well the Senate is the leader of the Republic

Wait, so because they serve the Senate, whom Palpatine is the elected Leader of, they don't serve Palpatine. You care to demonstrate proof of this?

It wasnt until Palpatine changed all the damn rules that he became the ultamate power.

Strange...he proposed legislation to the Senate...and guess what dumbfuck?

THEY VOTED AND RATIFIED IT. Hmm, sounds like regardless of what he is, he did legally.

Therefore Palpatine made the Jedi seem to have had this whole illegal coup. The Jedi never planned on overthrowing the Senate and putting the Jedi Council in place of the senate they went in to arrest Palpatine and bring him before teh Senate.

On what charges. This is what I love of idiots like you. They crow how it wasn't illegal, but can never come up with a reason why it was LEGAL. Just Mace obviously had something.

It wasnt until Mace saw his buddies die that he got mad and at that point had to kill Palpatine.

Riiiiight, like entering with lightsabers DRAWN, they were just going to arrest him.

Palpatine started to change rules in TPM when he was acting as Sidious and talking to Gunray about the blockade. "I will make it legal"

Ah, pointless supposition. You care to show what he did to make legal? Oh wait, you have no fucking clue.

There theres my evidence or my opinion on why it wasnt an illegal Jedi coup.

And such stunning evidence it is. Still shows how much a fucking moron, since you've presented no proof how that the Jedi can barge in and tell the man that they serve vis a vis the Senate to shove off, without proof one of his illegal actions. I guess by this regard police can enter the President's house based upon possible supposition and tell Bush that he's under arrest...without giving due cause.

Tychu wrote:1. Its stated time and again in ROTS and EU that the Jedi are entrusted to the Republic not its ruler (ie. Palps).

And though the President is technically the Commander-in-Chief, the US Army is entrusted to the United States, not its ruler.

2. IN AOTC The Jedi are seen hanging around the Senate and they talk about how far Palpatine has gone with his power and when he should be stopped

That's just proof that they were starting to plot Palpatine's downfall for years. It doesn't present proof that their coup is legal.

3. Obi Wan talks to Anakin about why Palpatine cant be trusted saying that he has changed the rules to stay in power much longer than he should have

He changed the rules to stay in power, but guess what? He did it legally. By that logic, the US Government should be completely overhauled every time a Constitutional Amendment is ratified.

4. Palpatine really has no power to impose anything on the Jedi (as in point #1) There fore the Jedi and the Chancellor are 2 seperate entities. So if you want to get technicall
a coup is a force from within the government trying to take power or overthrow the leadership. Since the Jedi get their power from the Senate and not the Chancellor and the Chancellor is elected and gets his power from the Senate as well the Senate is the leader of the Republic

The Jedi get their power from existing. We only really see characters that are friendly to the Jedi, but it seems to me that there are a lot of people that tolerate the Jedi only because they tend to keep to themselves.

Besides, the Chancellor is elected for the sole intent of leading the Senate. You might as well say that George W. Bush isn't the leader of the US, or Tony Blair isn't the leader of the UK, or Vladimir Putin isn't the leader of Russia.

Besides, your definition is just splitting hairs. If I broke into the White House with a gun in an attempt to depose Bush and install myself as POTUS, that would be an attempted coup, even though I have no position within the US Government..

It wasnt until Palpatine changed all the damn rules that he became the ultamate power. Therefore Palpatine made the Jedi seem to have had this whole illegal coup. The Jedi never planned on overthrowing the Senate and putting the Jedi Council in place of the senate they went in to arrest Palpatine and bring him before teh Senate.

ROTS movie, Mace speculates that the Jedi Order will probably have to take control of the Senate after deposing Palpatine to ensure a peaceful transition.[/quote]

On the issue of the Jedi versus Palpatine...Publius brought it up best. Palpatine commited war crimes and crimes against sentience that it speaks volumes that the Jedi never investigated any of these venues and instead attacked him at a point where they had the least legal hold.

This would be akin to going after the President because he's Jewish, instead of the fact that he killed millions of men through gassing and incineration. This is where Palpatine so effectively destroyed the Jedi. He used their overwhelming arrogance against them.

Ghost Rider wrote:On the issue of the Jedi versus Palpatine...Publius brought it up best. Palpatine commited war crimes and crimes against sentience that it speaks volumes that the Jedi never investigated any of these venues and instead attacked him at a point where they had the least legal hold.

This would be akin to going after the President because he's Jewish, instead of the fact that he killed millions of men through gassing and incineration. This is where Palpatine so effectively destroyed the Jedi. He used their overwhelming arrogance against them.

Really, what choice did the Jedi have? Should they have brought charges against Palpatine in the Senate or courts? At best, they would have been laughed out of Congress, and at worst they would have been charged with treason anyway. Palpatine had already made himself a dictator in all but name, so the Jedi's only choice was to resort to extra-legal means to remove him. Did it matter exactly what Windu said to Palpatine when he showed up in his office?

Mace Windu's plan would have worked if only he hadn't failed to actually kill Palpatine; it was this failure that led to the direct destruction of the Jedi.

One wonders if Palpatine had paid the news feeds to make the Jedi look bad. There was actually an anti-Jedi movement somewhere mentioned in the Holonet news, and Palpatine calling the the instigators of the Clone Wars would have set this group calling for blood.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:One wonders if Palpatine had paid the news feeds to make the Jedi look bad. There was actually an anti-Jedi movement somewhere mentioned in the Holonet news, and Palpatine calling the the instigators of the Clone Wars would have set this group calling for blood.

A propos of that thought, the Millennium Entertainments media empire had been part of the Galactic Corporate Policy League (GCPL) and in Palpatine's back pocket since before The Phantom Menace. No doubt this played into Anakin Skywalker's war hero status, which certainly had the effect of feeding his ego (something Palpatine was always assiduous in doing).

Eframepilot wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:On the issue of the Jedi versus Palpatine...Publius brought it up best. Palpatine commited war crimes and crimes against sentience that it speaks volumes that the Jedi never investigated any of these venues and instead attacked him at a point where they had the least legal hold.

This would be akin to going after the President because he's Jewish, instead of the fact that he killed millions of men through gassing and incineration. This is where Palpatine so effectively destroyed the Jedi. He used their overwhelming arrogance against them.

Really, what choice did the Jedi have? Should they have brought charges against Palpatine in the Senate or courts? At best, they would have been laughed out of Congress, and at worst they would have been charged with treason anyway. Palpatine had already made himself a dictator in all but name, so the Jedi's only choice was to resort to extra-legal means to remove him. Did it matter exactly what Windu said to Palpatine when he showed up in his office?

Mace Windu's plan would have worked if only he hadn't failed to actually kill Palpatine; it was this failure that led to the direct destruction of the Jedi.

Given there were still people who opposed Palpatine...going the extra legal route was the dumbest thing to do since, he could literally insure that people will follow his side. Hell, it gave him fuel to tell people one of the organizations they trusted, tried to kill their beloved chancellor.

That is why he won, they played into his hands, and they did so like dumb sheep. They were some arrogant that it took them years to even acknowledge the Sith lord problem and by then they had not clue one what the fuck he was doing and opted for the only method they thought they had.