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I've been wondering some things about Thrawn.

Why all the love of him? Why is he seen as the potential answer to every question when it comes to the Imps after Endor.

If I remember correctly, Thrawn had 5 ISDs, of which I think he lost 2 in his campaigns. 40% loss rate of your main line ships gets admirals fired (or they go down w/ the ship)

Also, if he was such the brilliant tactician, why did he not salvage something out of Endor? 1 SSD + 1 Death Star down, plus I believe a few other ISDs. The Imps should have had enough firepower to overwelm the Rebel fleet, then BDZ the moon. Why did he not assume command?

Why is he seen as such a brilliant tactician, yet practically everyone of his schemes didn't work?

Why this obsession with the 200 Dreadnaughts? with even the addition of these ships, this is a mere pinprick in the SW Galaxy. Compare to the Trade Fed Blockade. A private corporation had larger and more assets than this supposed Grand Admiral.

If he was such the Military Genius, how did he not gather more support from other Imps after Endor?

If he was so trusted by the emperor, why at endor did he command a lowly ISD instead of the fleet? Piett was in charge of Executor (Most large ships (modern day carriers for example) often have admirals on board just due to the size of crew. Piett was just an admiral, thus even so he would have outranked him. Using Jutland as an example, Beatty was running the battle until they got back to the British Fleet, then Jellicoe was overall commander, multiple admirals...one running the show, the most senior (until disabled).

Why all the outer rim struggles? If the Imps still held deep core worlds (minus Couruscant) why not fall back to those? It seems as if he were trying to out-rebel the rebels...and failed.

Could someone please explain?

The simple issue is, Zahn presented him as such. Sure, he was overall presented well, but presented as brilliant and successful none the less, and thus most people accepted it.

I thought he was alright, and worked with what few ships he had due to resources and EU minimalism.

warpusher wrote:
Also, if he was such the brilliant tactician, why did he not salvage something out of Endor? 1 SSD + 1 Death Star down, plus I believe a few other ISDs. The Imps should have had enough firepower to overwelm the Rebel fleet, then BDZ the moon. Why did he not assume command?

Are you fucking dumb? Thrawn wasn't even in the battle, nor anywhere in the known galaxy at that point.

Why is he seen as such a brilliant tactician, yet practically everyone of his schemes didn't work?

Main characters > Thrawn, that simple, writing, not any stupidity on Thrawns part, witness his prediction of Bilbirngi.

Why this obsession with the 200 Dreadnaughts? with even the addition of these ships, this is a mere pinprick in the SW Galaxy. Compare to the Trade Fed Blockade. A private corporation had larger and more assets than this supposed Grand Admiral.

Writing. Zhan was a minimalist. Nevermind that in universe, those would be 200 dreadnaughts that can be used offensively, as much of the Imperial Navy would be tied down holding systems.

If he was such the Military Genius, how did he not gather more support from other Imps after Endor?

He wasn't there, have you even read the books?

If he was so trusted by the emperor, why at endor did he command a lowly ISD instead of the fleet? Piett was in charge of Executor (Most large ships (modern day carriers for example) often have admirals on board just due to the size of crew. Piett was just an admiral, thus even so he would have outranked him. Using Jutland as an example, Beatty was running the battle until they got back to the British Fleet, then Jellicoe was overall commander, multiple admirals...one running the show, the most senior (until disabled).

Ah, now I see, you are mixing Palleon and Thrawn up, go and actully read the books, might be usful for your questions.

Why all the outer rim struggles? If the Imps still held deep core worlds (minus Couruscant) why not fall back to those? It seems as if he were trying to out-rebel the rebels...and failed.

Not really, he didn't have acess to those worlds, nevermind they were mostly hidden.

With regards to Thrawn at Endor: he wasn't there. He was off exploring the Unknown Regions during the events of ROTJ. He did not return to civilization until four years after Endor.

warpusher wrote:If he was such the Military Genius, how did he not gather more support from other Imps after Endor?

There are a number of reasons. When Thrawn returned from the Unknown Regions, the Empire had already fragmented into warlord factions that had no interest in serving someone who was not the Emperor, regardless of military genius. He was not the Emperor's rightful heir--nobody was--and I'm sure most were rather content to spend their days as rulers of whatever territory they had carved out.

Why this obsession with the 200 Dreadnaughts?

Zahn's minimalism is to blame for this. Under SoD, I don't know what the concensus is or if there is one. Perhaps both sides were so equally matched in warships that 200 ancient cruisers could potentially turn the tide...

EDIT: I feel very much like an echo, Ace.

Sorry for the mix up in Thrawn & Pelleaon.

I would re-read them if I could...but being stuck in the middle of BF-Iraq takes away from my places to get them

warpusher wrote:If I remember correctly, Thrawn had 5 ISDs, of which I think he lost 2 in his campaigns. 40% loss rate of your main line ships gets admirals fired (or they go down w/ the ship)

He had a LOT more than just 5 ISDs, which were just the ships in the core fleet that he traveled in.

Also, if he was such the brilliant tactician, why did he not salvage something out of Endor? 1 SSD + 1 Death Star down, plus I believe a few other ISDs. The Imps should have had enough firepower to overwelm the Rebel fleet, then BDZ the moon. Why did he not assume command?

He wasn't even at Endor. This was made very clear in the books.

Why is he seen as such a brilliant tactician, yet practically everyone of his schemes didn't work?

"Practically every one" of his schemes didn't work? A lot of his plans worked, and he demonstrated that he was extremely resourceful and creative with the way he used cloaking devices and other technology, both advanced and common. He was winning his war against the New Republic until he was untimely assassinated.

Why this obsession with the 200 Dreadnaughts? with even the addition of these ships, this is a mere pinprick in the SW Galaxy. Compare to the Trade Fed Blockade.

Blame Zahn's minimalism. However, in this case the minimalism is easily explained, so it's not nearly as bad as other examples. It was said in the book that at this point, the two sides were evenly matched. Thrawn was able to acquire a couple hundred free ships that tipped the balance in his favor. The Katana Fleet wasn't even portrayed as this big, bad fleet - Thrawn quickly split it up into small groups and used them to attack multiple worlds, forcing the Republic to split is forces thin so that it couldn't defend important places like Ukio.

A private corporation had larger and more assets than this supposed Grand Admiral.

I don't believe they ever said how big Thrawn's total forces were. They were enough to fight the New Republic, so they weren't that small.

Why all the outer rim struggles? If the Imps still held deep core worlds (minus Couruscant) why not fall back to those? It seems as if he were trying to out-rebel the rebels...and failed.

Thrawn didn't control the Deep Core (the other Imperials did), and Coruscant isn't in the Deep Core. The Deep Core is crap anyway:

The Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:The peripheral sphere of the galactic core has long served as the seat of civilization for the Old Republic and was called the Core Worlds. The Deep Core, at the heart of the galaxy, had resisted most exploration. The Deep Core is filled with a myriad of blazing suns, some within a few light hours of each other. The closeness of these stars has long proved a nearly insurmountable navigational hurdle.

EDIT: Fixed quotations.

This is a great example of someone shooting his mouth off before he knows what he's talking about. Goin back to the Thrawn trilogy a quote from Genral Solo states "We're evenly gunned now and our people are better trained and motivated".

Along comes Thrawn. He gets the Emperors Cloning facility, the NR troops are no longer better trained and motivated as he can clone his best and brightest, no more conscripts. He gets 200 extra ships allowing him to use them to drag the NR fleet on a merry chase all over the galaxy allowing him to pick and chose ripe targets. It was all going to plan for him, he was about to smash Ackbars fleet at Billbringi(sp?) when the Nogri assassinated him.

As to why the other Imperial Warlords wouldn't follow him, it's simple he was an Alien, even under the Emperors favour many officers resented serving under him and with him. Also the deep core fleets where waiting the word from the Emperor Reborn.

So is this thread really about Thrawn or about Pellaeon?

warpusher wrote:If I remember correctly, Thrawn had 5 ISDs, of which I think he lost 2 in his campaigns. 40% loss rate of your main line ships gets admirals fired (or they go down w/ the ship)

Thrawn had a personal fleet of five Star Destroyers. I can only recall one Star Destroyer being lost, at the Katana Fleet skirmish, and that was the Peremptory (which was not of the five). If I'm incorrect, please correct me.

Also, if he was such the brilliant tactician, why did he not salvage something out of Endor? 1 SSD + 1 Death Star down, plus I believe a few other ISDs. The Imps should have had enough firepower to overwelm the Rebel fleet, then BDZ the moon. Why did he not assume command?

Thrawn was not at Endor. Moreover, this subject has been debated before, in regards to Pellaeon. Link

rest of rant

I am assuming that you are reffering to Pellaeon then.

Also, it could be argued that the Peremptory's destruction wasn't really Thrawn's fault. He wanted to go in himself, but C'Baoth threw a temper tantrum. The Peremptory was sent in instead, and then destroyed by a Republic-controlled Katana-fleet Dreadnaught ramming it while Bel Iblis' six Dreadnaughts bombarded it with ion fire.

Thrawn, in the subsequent heated exchange with C'Baoth, said that if he Chimera had gone in instead no ships would have been lost, but C'Baoth mocks him, saying that it's just as likely that Thrawn and the Chimera would have been killed instead. It's open to debate. Thrawn was a tactical genius, so he might have put up a better fight against Bel Iblis and/or avoided the ramming Dreadnaught...or maybe not. He wasn't infallible.

Lord Pounder wrote:Along comes Thrawn. He gets the Emperors Cloning facility, the NR troops are no longer better trained and motivated as he can clone his best and brightest, no more conscripts. He gets 200 extra ships allowing him to use them to drag the NR fleet on a merry chase all over the galaxy allowing him to pick and chose ripe targets. It was all going to plan for him, he was about to smash Ackbars fleet at Billbringi(sp?) when the Nogri assassinated him.

I actually don't think the outcome of Bilbringi was a foregone conclusion. Ackbar's no slouch.

One of Thrawn's character traits is that he's overconfident. He likes to talk shit, but he's not infallible and we've seen him withdraw when the odds were stacked against him. We don't see his staff officers too - it's just him and Pellaeon by his side. So predictably, when he gets KIAed, there's no Admiral to take over and it fell down on Pellaeon's shoulders - who had no confidence in the Fleet's position. (which says to me that the Imperials didn't have an overwhelming advantage in numbers to guarantee a victory, and that they were basically pinning their hopes on Thrawn's tactical acrobatics)

Given that level of overconfidence, I express some doubts whenever Thrawn says "Victory is ours."

Mind you, I like the fact that Thrawn was overconfident. It adds depth to the character.

warpusher wrote:I've been wondering some things about Thrawn.

Why all the love of him?

In universe facts aside, I think that a big reason why people love Thrawn is that he is one of the few memorable and worthwhile characters to come out of the EU.

Thrawn was well written and interesting to read. He wasn't just a rehash, which actually most if not all, of the characters from the original Zahn trilogy avoided. In part because of good writting and story telling and in part because he was the first to write in the "new" EU and had a big giant blank slate.

Stofsk wrote:I actually don't think the outcome of Bilbringi was a foregone conclusion. Ackbar's no slouch.

Actually, Isard's revenge confirms that if pellaeon had not lost his nerve, Billbringi was not lost. I remind you off the fact that only a very slight portion of the fleet had broken out off the imps formation and that this slight portion would have been cut off and destroyed with little sweat-breaking on the imperial side. For references, see pg 7-9. (I can state the sentences, If you do not have the book at hand. Basically, they say that only a couple of assualt frigates and rogue squadron broke through, and that the rest was still bottled up.)

Well, I haven't read it, and Michael Stackpole blows goats.

Isard's revenge is actually a pretty decent book, with lots of nice capship action. Nevertheless, his alleged sexual preferences have no impact on the canonity of his book.

Anguirus wrote:Thrawn was a tactical genius, so he might have put up a better fight against Bel Iblis and/or avoided the ramming Dreadnaught...or maybe not. He wasn't infallible.

That's why I like him, is that for all his badassitude, he made mistakes. He completely misread the Kabarakh deal and didn't comprehend what his capture meant. Because of this, he declined to interrogate him. If he had, he would have eventually found out Leia was on Honghor and would have caught her before she exposed the empire's deceit.

Thrawn had a personal fleet of five Star Destroyers. I can only recall one Star Destroyer being lost, at the Katana Fleet skirmish, and that was the Peremptory (which was not of the five). If I'm incorrect, please correct me.

You are correct, the ISD's I can remember in that group were Chimaera, Death's Head, Stormhawk, Bellicose and Judicator.

Actually, Isard's revenge confirms that if pellaeon had not lost his nerve, Billbringi was not lost. I remind you off the fact that only a very slight portion of the fleet had broken out off the imps formation and that this slight portion would have been cut off and destroyed with little sweat-breaking on the imperial side.

Yes, the forces to break through were the Rogues and a couple AF's, but they disabled the Golan platform which was holding that vector, leaving a hole in the perimeter. This would have allowed ships through before the IN could close the gap, and when they did, that would weaken them elsewhere. They would then have to deploy forces to counter those now loose in the shipyards, which would further weaken the perimeter. With Thrawn in command, it could be done, but with the shock of his assasination precious time would have been lost, and the IN would have been on the back foot. We can see in the graphic version an ISD with multiple hull breaches seemingly losing power through the Chimaera's bridge, so the Rebels were taking a toll. Granted, perhaps Pellaeon should have held the line, but the initiative had been lost, and the IN would have been fighting a losing battle from then on in.

Personally I love Thrawn because he epitomises all that is right in the Empire, as does Pellaeon, another of my favourite characters. He is a realistic, excellently portrayed character with a lot of depth, despite many people's claims that he is 'wanked out'. This is poorly thought through bullshit. In a galaxy with trillions of sentient beings, is not possible that the formative influences on ONE of those beings creates a brilliant military commander? I'm sure these people would also call figures like Alexander the Great wanked out if they were fictional.

The Thrawn trillogy follows roughly the following modus operandi:

Good guys are outmaneuvered, outsmarted, and outgunned by bad guys.

Good guys get insanely lucky.

Bad guys are defeated.

It's been a long while since I read the Thrawn trillogy, but I remember being extremely disappointed that the Rebellion won through sheer dumb luck, and the law of main character - main event attaction (in a galaxy with quadrillions of people and millions of inhabited sectors, some of the known main characters shall just happen to be at every important event in order to conveniently save the day). It was like sitting through the Endor fiasco over and over again.

I don't think that's fair. Thrawn lost at Sluis Van because in his immaculate plans he didn't take into account one former smuggler who had the brains to figure out what he was doing and foil him.

In Dark Force Rising, the Rebels just got there too late. Thrawn beat them to the clock. Even there, Leia went to Noghri homeworld and found out what she needed to know.

Which leads to the conclusion of The Last Command. Thrawn was assassinated by his own bodyguard because of actions he deliberately took vis-a-vis the Noghri. And they found out about it. The Rebels didn't win by sheer luck alone, they won through good fortune yes but it was foreshadowed and it made consistent sense.

Lazarus wrote:

Actually, Isard's revenge confirms that if pellaeon had not lost his nerve, Billbringi was not lost. I remind you off the fact that only a very slight portion of the fleet had broken out off the imps formation and that this slight portion would have been cut off and destroyed with little sweat-breaking on the imperial side.

Yes, the forces to break through were the Rogues and a couple AF's, but they disabled the Golan platform which was holding that vector, leaving a hole in the perimeter. This would have allowed ships through before the IN could close the gap, and when they did, that would weaken them elsewhere. They would then have to deploy forces to counter those now loose in the shipyards, which would further weaken the perimeter. With Thrawn in command, it could be done, but with the shock of his assasination precious time would have been lost, and the IN would have been on the back foot. We can see in the graphic version an ISD with multiple hull breaches seemingly losing power through the Chimaera's bridge, so the Rebels were taking a toll. Granted, perhaps Pellaeon should have held the line, but the initiative had been lost, and the IN would have been fighting a losing battle from then on in.

Sigh. Why do I always have to quote Isard's revenge when it comes to bilbringi? Why don't people actually read the book before they start writing?

As I said in my previous post, those countermeasures were already put in place by the subordinate who commanded the flank portion, or maybe Thrawn himself.

To quote directly from the book:

“Thrawn might not like what we the rogues are doing, but he can deal with us later, when he’s killed all the other ships. - Corran’s thoughts about their chance of success of breaking up the imperial assault with the attack on the Golan platform, after the attack had succeeded.

After Pellaeon gives the retreat order:

The imperial bowl, which had been contracting around the rebel cone, was beginning to come apart. The Stormhawk and the nemesis were moving to secure an outbound sector for the fleet, while Thrawn’s flagship, the Chimaera, swung about to discourage pursuit of the fleet’s smaller ships. – clearly showing that the imperial formation was holding despite the rebel attack, and was even contracting after the Golan had been taken out, thereby rendering the flank action nearly moot.

After the imperial break formation: The rebel began to blossom from the widest end, coming forward to the tip. The New Republic’s ship kept a respectful distance from the imperial ships – clearly showing that the rebels were not breaking the imps formation and were in such a battered shape that they could not suddenly go ninja on the imps. The imperial retreat was conducted in good order.

“What happened here, Lead?” “Don’t know, Nine….For now, let’s just be glad that, for whatever reason, Thrawn discovered he had better things to do…” A few of the quotes from rogue squadron, which further go to show that the rebels themselves did not believe that they were winning.

At the after-action conference:
Wedge: “I can’t believe though, that our assault was what frightened Thrawn off.” Ackbar: “It wasn’t.” Even Ackbar did not regard that assault to be decisive.

All quotes from Isard's revenge, pg. 8-11.

I'm guessing it has to do with the idea that he's supposed to be a "military genius" (much as Darth Maul is supposed to be a "powerful Sith warrior" and Boba Fett is a "feared bounty hunter").

I think it's a combination of nostalgia for Zahn's trilogy of novels, which jump started the Star Wars EU, post-ROTJ, and for many fans was their first exposure to new stories outside the movies (I hazard to guess more people read "Heir to the Empire"/"Dark Force Rising" or the "The Last Command" than "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" or "The Han Solo Adventures")... and the fact that "here for once we get an Imperial who isn't an idiot or reliant on a Sith Lord to back him up."

Then again, Thrawn DOES have a Dark Jedi to back him up, but their relationship is such that the Imperial guy is bossing the Dark Jedi around and even trying to control him. This may evoke for fans a remembrance of the original Star Wars, where we never saw the Emperor (and didn't even have a hint that he was a force user) but we saw Tarkin in charge, with Vader being more of a glorified henchman (like his masked counterpart to Ming the Merciless in "Flash Gordon"). Another big point for nostalgia, before the story evolved and Vader became the second in command to the all-powerful Dark Side Emperor.

Plus making him an alien gives him that "exotic" touch to make him stand out more from all those "white british guys" we saw in the movies, and I guess makes the Empire seem more savvy (they weren't so anti-alien that they would pass up a guy with his potential for the position). Plus putting him in a white suit and making up a new rank just for him makes him seem more special. The "stand out" factor was probably also why you had a red haired woman as an Imperial admiral in the later EU.

So those are the factors I attribute to his popularity, but I put a heavy bid on the fact that he was the principle villian of the first EU novels most people read.

Thanas wrote:

Sigh. Why do I always have to quote Isard's revenge when it comes to bilbringi? Why don't people actually read the book before they start writing?

From Isard's Revenge:
'If we can get into the shipyards, the Imps will have to think about more than just pounding our fleet'
'(The Golan) could easily put down any of the New Republic ships that made it
through the Imperial formation'
The IN is relying upon the Golans to hold the flanks while the mobile vessels go after individual ships and whittle down the NR fleet. By disabling the Golan, the Rebels could enter the shipyards and force Thrawn to adapt his plan. This is now seen from the Imperial perspective in TLC.

From The Last Command:
'The two Rebel Assault frigates broke to either side of the beleagured Golan II, delivering massive broadsides as they veered off. A section of the battle station flared and went dark; and against its darkened bulk another wave of Rebel starfighters could be seen slipping past into the shipyards beyond. And Pellaeon was no longer smiling. 'Don't panic, Captain' Thrawn said. But he, too, was starting to sound grim. 'We're not defeated yet. Not by a long shot'
Quite clearly, the Rebel breakthrough is a significant action, and even the usually calm Grand Admiral sees just how costly it could be. The Rebel fleet had been hopelessly pinned down, but they now have an avenue of attack into the unprotected shipyards, which they are taking full advantage of. Its effect is seen in the following.

'Pellaeon looked up at the viewports. At the chaos that had erupted behind the defenses of the supposedly secure shipyards; at the unexpected need to split his forces to its defense; at the Rebel fleet taking full advantage of the diversion. In the blink of an eye, the universe had suddenly turned against them. Thrawn could still have pulled an Imperial victory out of it. But he, Pellaeon, was not Thrawn.'
This from the now de-facto commander of the fleet, who is all too aware of the fact that the Imperials have lost the initiative, and he will not be able to regain it. Corran Horn's quote is of a lesser validity than that from the bridge of the Chimaera: Thrawn is in command of the Imperial fleet, it is his operation, and only he and his officers can fully appreciate how the actions of the enemy change the state of affair.

Read the book.

The reason I liked Thrawn was precisely because he did so much with so little. He had a handful of ordinary ISDs and through wit and guile kept the New Rep stymied. He didn't even have an SSD command ship or a "heavy" Star Destroyer like an Allegiance. He didn't need gawd-awful wank toys like Sun Crushers, Death Stars, giant hollowed out moon worldships full of ancient secret Sith technology or Palpatine era leftovers. A handful of cleverly-deployed force multipliers in th eright times and places alleviated the need for wank.

Thanas wrote: Actually, Isard's revenge confirms that if pellaeon had not lost his nerve, Billbringi was not lost. I remind you off the fact that only a very slight portion of the fleet had broken out off the imps formation and that this slight portion would have been cut off and destroyed with little sweat-breaking on the imperial side. For references, see pg 7-9. (I can state the sentences, If you do not have the book at hand. Basically, they say that only a couple of assualt frigates and rogue squadron broke through, and that the rest was still bottled up.)

Only if Thrawn fleet was numerically superior to Ackbar.

The need to counter the threat to the shipyards might had thinned Thrawn fleet formation, making it susceptible to the greater numbers that Ackbar had assembled.

Thanas wrote: As I said in my previous post, those countermeasures were already put in place by the subordinate who commanded the flank portion, or maybe Thrawn himself.

To quote directly from the book:

“Thrawn might not like what we the rogues are doing, but he can deal with us later, when he’s killed all the other ships. - Corran’s thoughts about their chance of success of breaking up the imperial assault with the attack on the Golan platform, after the attack had succeeded.

After Pellaeon gives the retreat order:

The imperial bowl, which had been contracting around the rebel cone, was beginning to come apart. The Stormhawk and the nemesis were moving to secure an outbound sector for the fleet, while Thrawn’s flagship, the Chimaera, swung about to discourage pursuit of the fleet’s smaller ships. – clearly showing that the imperial formation was holding despite the rebel attack, and was even contracting after the Golan had been taken out, thereby rendering the flank action nearly moot.

After the imperial break formation: The rebel began to blossom from the widest end, coming forward to the tip. The New Republic’s ship kept a respectful distance from the imperial ships – clearly showing that the rebels were not breaking the imps formation and were in such a battered shape that they could not suddenly go ninja on the imps. The imperial retreat was conducted in good order.

I'm sorry, but how does this show any counter-measures to Rogue flank attack? The problem was never about whether Rogue and the cap ships following would had defeated the fleet. It was about the need to protect the shipyards.

Another reason to chuck Stackpole novels away. When he's not making his Gary Stu Squadron the Feared Fighting Force of the GFFA, he has them shaking in their boots over Thrawn. It's pure wank, and it is unimaginative.

"The Last Command" showed quite clearly that Thrawn had lost the initiative. Could he have won? Pellaeon seems to think so - and Pellaeon is utterly enamoured with Thrawn while dismissive of his own abilities that I remain skeptical of his objectivity. Not to mention Pellaeon is a Captain, not an Admiral. I think it's quite telling that we don't read about Thrawn's staff of Admirals (presuming they even exist) take over the Fleet. For some reason it falls down on Pellaeon's shoulders. I don't see how that is conclusive of a Rebel defeat via Thrawn pulling rabbits out of Pellaeon's officer cap.