Why did the New Republic have such a small fleet?

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-01-04 03:00pm

Compare to the Empire the NR fleet is small and insignificant, but compare to the OR the NR fleet appears to be bigger and more powerful.
Why didn't they build up a large fleet when NR faced imperial warlords after the other? Or maybe they did but took heavy losses after each warlord?
Is it due to lack of natural resources, long time to train crews to man the starships, lack of economic resources? (I seriously doubt that) or was it due to the NR politicians were incompetent, were not willing to give the military the resources to build up their fleets?

Well now Yuuzhan Vong should be in trouble if NR is using Kuat Drive Yards to 100%, they should be able to replace their ships faster then YV can destroy them.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-01-04 03:15pm

Because they're stupid pacifists.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-04 03:42pm

Poor leadership.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2003-01-04 03:55pm

The government was full of dumbasses who didnt want to have a fleet that may have reminded people of the empire.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 04:08pm

Those responses are all well and good, but totaly defunct.

The New Republic forces are smaller because of the difference in the way it sets up defense forces. In the Empire every system was assigned government protection in the form of a Sector Fleet. Those Sector fleets were there to mantain the peace, and to keep the citizens in line as a velied threat. The major planets had thier own defenses, but they were run by local imperial garrisons. In the New Republic this has changed. As we have seen with the Bothans, each major planet has fielded their own defense force. The New Republic does not want to seem as though it's Defense Force is an occupation force.

Also the New Republic has centered it's new fleets around the Carrier. Where as the Empire advanced Battleships and Capital Weaponry as thier main backbone of the fleet and used the threat of being everywhere the NR is vastly different. Lacking heavy Capital ships the Rebellion advanced Fighter Technology. The New Republic has continued this pattern and now fields large amounts of strike aircraft like the B-Wing and newer K-Wings.

Mobility and Long Range are the keys to the New Republic forces. Since the main fleet vessels do not have to enter battle zones directly it is easier for a single force to engage multiple targets at differing locations.

The New Republic Fleet is smaller because it is capable of Longer Range Operations and does not need to protect every single star system. With major planets once again watching thier own space the Defense Force only has to patrol through space instead of occupying it.

BenRG · Post by **BenRG** » 2003-01-04 04:46pm

I think it was mostly a 'peace dividend' mentality.

Despite the fact that the Imperial Remnant remained a formidable force (as Thrawn so eloquantly demonstrated a few years later

), the majority of the New Republic's provisional council wanted to slash the military budget as quickly as possible. The practical upshot of this is a lot of the Rebellion's oldest proven CapShips were mothballed, and, when lots of ships were in the shipyards for servicing and resupply, this left a lot of sectors with extremely minimal defensive coverage except for a few squadrons of A- and X-Wing fighters.

IceHawk-151 wrote:Also the New Republic has centered it's new fleets around the Carrier. Where as the Empire advanced Battleships and Capital Weaponry as thier main backbone of the fleet and used the threat of being everywhere the NR is vastly different. Lacking heavy Capital ships the Rebellion advanced Fighter Technology. The New Republic has continued this pattern and now fields large amounts of strike aircraft like the B-Wing and newer K-Wings.

An interesting theory, but shot down by the fact that the Republic's most common fighter-carrying fleet command ships in the immediate post-Imperial era were converted ISD-class star destroyers (ref: 'The Black Fleet Crisis') and their Mon Calmari equivalents, the MC-80 and -90 battlecruisers.

If you are referring to something in the NJO series of books, I apologise, as I've never read them. However, as far as I know, the concept of the carrier died out before the Civil War. The Escort Carrier was the last of its' kind. The VSD had proven that it was possible to have a battleship that carries a practical fighter group.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-04 06:53pm

I think it is apparent from sources such as the hand of Thrawn Duology and Bloack Fleet Crisis that the NR operates its military in a tiered fashion. In other words there is both a Galaxy Wide Fleet (NR Defense Fleet) and there are local system specific fleets.

The Hand of Thrawn books make it very clear that member systems maintain their own fleets for protection. These fleets may be commandeered by a central authority and used essentially in the same manner that the US now uses the National Guard and Air National Guad. In other words they are forces for use of the individual states unless federalized.

The NR Fleet itself is simply the active Federal-only protion of the fleet which is chartered to work forthe NR as a whole at all times. This would mean it would need to be a very fast and easily supported fleet. Basically you need a fast and cheap fleet because supplying it will be a lot tougher than for the Imperials who could remain just in a given sector.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-04 07:17pm

Different government styles. The majority of the Imperial fleet was keeping people from going at each others throats. The NR didn't need to do this, as everyone was united in kicking the Empires ass and the Jedi and diplomatic corps were mediating the disputes later. In addition, the Empire had a centralized military, but the NR let sectors and planets have their own defenses. And for the guy ripping into the NR because of what Thrawn did, remember that they had just captured Kuat and Fondor a few months ago and the Imperials tried to pull a scorched earth on them when they left those systems.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 09:57pm

The Fifth fleet from the Black Fleet Crisis was one of the newer fleets in production. It was the embodiment of the new fleet arrangement. The flagship of the Fleet was an Endurance-class Fighter Carrier. The attacks against the Yevethan Shipyards and infrastructre were undertaken by K-Wing Bombers and other Fighters while the main fleet held back so the Destroyers and battleships could protect the carriers. Also the "New Class" ships included two brand new carrier vessels. The Endurance and the Defender class vessels were designed right along with the Defender-class ISD and the other new capital ships.

Even the battleships are Carriers. Almost every vessel in the New Republic Military carries Fighter Squadrons. These Squadrons are almost always used as a Strike Force. The only times they are used as a defense force is when they are escorting convoys or their vessel falls under attack.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-04 10:09pm

Because they gave most of there ships to local system forces rather then keeping it in a centerl poor acutally under the goverment control.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-05 02:14am

I seem to remember reading that the Republic had a lot of its fleet "in mothballs" during Darksaber and/or in the Corellian Trilogy. They decided to cut the military budget and couldn't afford a larger fleet to complement those supplied by the member systems.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-05 04:52am

They even wanted to scrap the ECS they had gotten their hands on.
It's simply because the NR government is composed of incompetent pacifists.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-01-05 05:55am

Cpt_Frank wrote:They even wanted to scrap the ECS they had gotten their hands on.
It's simply because the NR government is composed of incompetent pacifists.

What's an ECS?? An Executor-class Starship??

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-05 07:45am

yup yup

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-05 08:22am

No, it's Executor class Command Ship.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-05 10:05am

IceHawk-151 wrote:Those responses are all well and good, but totaly defunct.

Look who's talking...

You are wrong, so stop yapping, official evidence explicitly says that the New Republic fleet was smaller by a factor of 5000x after Palpatines campaign and the Yuuzhan Vong attacked because the state of the galaxy was an all-time low, they acknowledged that had they attacked the Empire they would have been utterly destroyed in no time.

The NR collapsed after Thrawns and the Clone emperors campaigns and was left with a measly 11k worlds and 1000-4500 ships or so and the galaxy in disarray, and from there on it was a painfully slow rebuilding and a goverment that didn't want a large fleet or expand too fast, hence the Vong had their chance.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-05 10:09am

His Divine Shadow wrote:official evidence explicitly says that the New Republic fleet was smaller by a factor of 5000x after Palpatines campaign

Clarification, 5000x smaller than the imperial fleet at it's height.
And there is no question about it, the New Republics fleet was pathetically weak and small.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-05 11:34am

Darth Fanboy wrote:I seem to remember reading that the Republic had a lot of its fleet "in mothballs" during Darksaber and/or in the Corellian Trilogy. They decided to cut the military budget and couldn't afford a larger fleet to complement those supplied by the member systems.

Corellian Trilogy, most of the fleet is in mothballs and Ackbar had to scramble to put together a 20-odd ship fleet.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-05 12:23pm

However HDS when one looks at the official maps of the Galaxy in the NJO series and hears about the number of planet's the Republic has to defend one could assume that they got the majority of thier lost planets back after Thrawn and palpy went on their rampages.

Simply because the NR fleet was smaller does not mean it was weaker. Look at my post about the Fifth fleet. All of the main capital ships in the Republic field fighter squadrons. Throughout the EU we see the NR using fighters as strike vessels acting in long range missions.

The Empire valued mass numbers and brute force.
The Republic values long range and mobility.

Both ideas have pros and cons, both are being used to a good degree of success.

When the Vong commented on the Empire they weren't speaking just of military force. The reason that the vong were able to gain a quick foothold was because the Republic did not have complete domination over it's planets. They feared the Empire because Palpatine would have sacrificed thousands of lives and starships in an effort to protect his holdings, and no one could complain about it. The Republic on the other hand has to keep causualties to a minimum and preserve life, not territory.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-05 12:59pm

IceHawk-151 wrote:However HDS when one looks at the official maps of the Galaxy in the NJO series and hears about the number of planet's the Republic has to defend one could assume that they got the majority of thier lost planets back after Thrawn and palpy went on their rampages.

That does not guarantee a minority of their fleets back.

Simply because the NR fleet was smaller does not mean it was weaker. Look at my post about the Fifth fleet. All of the main capital ships in the Republic field fighter squadrons. Throughout the EU we see the NR using fighters as strike vessels acting in long range missions.

And the Imperial ships can do just the same, exception is the base TIE model.

It's a bad theory, it's contradictory to existing evidence, it's contradictory to what we know, that the Imp fleet replaced the local short ranged fleets with a central trans-galatic fleet capable of going anywhere.

The Empire valued mass numbers and brute force.
The Republic values long range and mobility

The point of the Empires fleet was to have a central fleet capable of striking anywhere in the galaxy, you're notion is the wrong way around.

Eh, no, you're wrong on both counts, NR ships are infact generally inferior to Imperial ships, they rely more on local fleets unlike the imps and their capital ships rely overly much on fighters, and as has been PROVEN they had trouble scraping together a fleet of 20 capital ships, it's a fact that the NR ships are not better or worse than the imp ships, which where trans-galatic, but that they simply are not large enough.

All fleets in that day and age where equally fast and mobile, it's just a matter of numbers.

When the Vong commented on the Empire they weren't speaking just of military force.

No but it was fucking clear, given that it mentioned their millitary being stronger than the NR's.
"the Empire was vastly more organized, powerful, and potently militaristic"

*snip*

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-05 01:17pm

Of all the Tie Series only the Experimental models that never saw mass production could operate away from a home vessel. The Tie sieries were designed for CAP, all except the Tie Bomber that is. That seems to have been designed as a STrike Craft. ALthough it required a good deal of escort seeing as how fast an X-Wing could make scrap out of them.

True getting back thier planets does not mean getting back thier fleets. However it does mean getting back thier resources and ship yards, which would allow them to rebuild thier fleets.

The Con of the Imperial Way.
The Imperial Fleets had to take direct participation in battles. Long ranges depended only on the range of Turbolasers. The Imperial Fleet was not meant to be able to go every where. It was meant to BE every where. Every sector got 24 ISD's as a protection and police force in space.

Yes, all of the fleets were equally mobile in technology. However they were not equally mobile in infrastructire. The Imperial Sector Groups had to protect certain places. Each group of ships presided over a group of planets. To reinforce any one sector group with another would be to weaken the latter.

Th NR fleets seemed to be designed to be more mobile. The Fifth FLeet is once again the best example of this. It was the newest fleet, thus it was the symbol of the new fleet breakdown. That fleet was built around Carriers and strke craft. It brought with it FLeet Tenders, which are mentioned in the EU and RPG games. The Fifth fleet had a larger possible area of operations than any Imperial Fleet equal to it's size.

Say the objective of the fleet is to knock out supply lines. To do this the Imperial Fleet would have to send in Capital Ships, deploy fighters, and take out supply convoys. A succesful tactic. However it gives an enemy to much information on what ships are in the fleet, a chance to take out Capital ships, and it limits the operating capability of the main fleet.

The Fifth fleet however seemed to use thier fighters in situations like this. They'd launch a force of X-Wings or whatever to escort in bombers and attack the convoys independant of the Capital Vessels. Enemy forces can only destroy the fighters. They can only begin to get intel on the types of fighters used in the fleet, not the Capital Ships. Also it allows for all the Fleet's main vessels to be free to undertake seperate operations at the same time.

I much rather prefer the NR way of doing things. I think that they are indeed a bit weaker in the range of Capital vs Capital, but that they more than make up for it in operating capability.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-05 01:36pm

True getting back thier planets does not mean getting back thier fleets. However it does mean getting back thier resources and ship yards, which would allow them to rebuild thier fleets.

Which ofcourse did not happen, refer to anti-millitary sentiments, Ackbar having problems with scraping together a small fleet.

The Imperial Fleets had to take direct participation in battles. Long ranges depended only on the range of Turbolasers. The Imperial Fleet was not meant to be able to go every where. It was meant to BE every where. Every sector got 24 ISD's as a protection and police force in space.

Every sector got an absolute minimum of 24 ISD's, which is painfully little to put over tens of thousands of planets.
And Imperial Fleets where capable of going anywhere, thats fact, you theorize about it, but it conflicts with the evidence already brought up.

Yes, all of the fleets were equally mobile in technology. However they were not equally mobile in infrastructire. The Imperial Sector Groups had to protect certain places. Each group of ships presided over a group of planets. To reinforce any one sector group with another would be to weaken the latter.

But Imperial ships could go anywhere, and they did, infact that was the beauty of the new ships of war, they where truly trans-galatic unlike the ships of old.

The NR fleets seemed to be designed to be more mobile. The Fifth FLeet is once again the best example of this. It was the newest fleet, thus it was the symbol of the new fleet breakdown. That fleet was built around Carriers and strke craft. It brought with it FLeet Tenders, which are mentioned in the EU and RPG games. The Fifth fleet had a larger possible area of operations than any Imperial Fleet equal to it's size.

Ofcourse Star Destroyers, still being superior vessels to any carrier, also carry alot of fighters.
It shows that the New Republic likes dedicated craft, and apparently focus on capable fighters with anti-capship weapons instead of capital ship firepower.

Say the objective of the fleet is to knock out supply lines. To do this the Imperial Fleet would have to send in Capital Ships, deploy fighters, and take out supply convoys. A succesful tactic. However it gives an enemy to much information on what ships are in the fleet, a chance to take out Capital ships, and it limits the operating capability of the main fleet

Or a squad of Avengers, or Defenders or any other hyperdrive capable fighers they have.

The Fifth fleet however seemed to use thier fighters in situations like this.

The fifth fleet seemed heavily reliant on fighters assisting them in taking on capital ships, with the existence of exotic capital ship protons it's doable, but risky.

They'd launch a force of X-Wings or whatever to escort in bombers and attack the convoys independant of the Capital Vessels. Enemy forces can only destroy the fighters. They can only begin to get intel on the types of fighters used in the fleet, not the Capital Ships. Also it allows for all the Fleet's main vessels to be free to undertake seperate operations at the same time

Ofcourse the Empire has such fighters so the point is moot, they just don't sacrifice

I much rather prefer the NR way of doing things. I think that they are indeed a bit weaker in the range of Capital vs Capital, but that they more than make up for it in operating capability

Efficency and tactics not withstanding they still where weak millitarily, and the main reason for needing less vessels has always been stated to be that members where not going to rebel and where allowed their own local forces, not their tactics, and compared to the Empires fleet, the NR fleet was a little speck that would have been swiftly crushed.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-05 02:43pm

"Efficency and tactics not withstanding they still where weak millitarily..." -HDS

You must be joking. The more dedicated vessels of the New Republic Military were superior in use than the General vessels of the Imperial Fleet. The NR had a wider range if tactics open to them by basing thier fleets around strike craft.

"Which ofcourse did not happen, refer to anti-millitary sentiments, Ackbar having problems with scraping together a small fleet. " _HDS

Yet Ackbar had been able to get the authorization to build an entirely new Fleet, Start a new vessel design program, and to use the new fleet to free up the others. All of this after the rampages of Thrawn, Palpatine, and the Imperial Remnant.

"But Imperial ships could go anywhere, and they did, infact that was the beauty of the new ships of war, they where truly trans-galatic unlike the ships of old." -HDS

However an ISD can only be in one place at one time. A single Star Destroyer can only operate it's support vessels in a single system because the majority of those support vessels are unable to traverse Hyperspace. The new carrier ships of the NR can deploy thier fighter squadrons well beyond thier own ranges, while still freeing up the Capital Ship itself. That means that each individual Carrier is more mobile. The only thing hampering a Carrier is the need to retrieve it's fighters. Thanks to the hyperdrives on Republic Fighters however doing that is quite easy.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-01-05 03:08pm

In Black Fleet Crisis, the Fifth was actually in danger of being mothballed. Sure, Ackbar had permission to build it, but the politicians wondered why they just built a fleet that could commence planetary assault. After all, it can't look like the NR plans to conquer worlds. If the Yevetha hadn't shown up, I have no doubt that the Chief of State, Leia Organa Solo, would have ordered the disbanding of the Fifth Fleet.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-05 03:28pm

You must be joking. The more dedicated vessels of the New Republic Military were superior in use than the General vessels of the Imperial Fleet. The NR had a wider range if tactics open to them by basing thier fleets around strike craft.

Thats irrelevant, they where still weak millitarily, evidence has been provided, multiple times.
Even so the Star Destroyer is truly an efficient design even with such a wide-range design, even in the NJO era the ISD is the premiere battleship and preffered allround vessel since it's so very good at all it's different design goals.

Yet Ackbar had been able to get the authorization to build an entirely new Fleet, Start a new vessel design program, and to use the new fleet to free up the others. All of this after the rampages of Thrawn, Palpatine, and the Imperial Remnant

The Black Fleet Crisis yes, at the time the 5th fleet, pathetic as it was on the grand scheme was heavily opposed by the NR, and the source in question happens after this, it seems things did not improve alot over the years.

However an ISD can only be in one place at one time. A single Star Destroyer can only operate it's support vessels in a single system because the majority of those support vessels are unable to traverse Hyperspace. The new carrier ships of the NR can deploy thier fighter squadrons well beyond thier own ranges, while still freeing up the Capital Ship itself. That means that each individual Carrier is more mobile. The only thing hampering a Carrier is the need to retrieve it's fighters. Thanks to the hyperdrives on Republic Fighters however doing that is quite easy

That's countered by simply building more fighters of Avenger and Defender design, there are
Also, support ships ranges from frigates and smaller capital ships, all capable of trans-galactic ranges.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Why did the New Republic have such a small fleet?

Why did the New Republic have such a small fleet?

Re: Why did the New Republic have such a small fleet?

I don't think so...