Did Admiral Ozzel get a bad rap?

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2006-08-28 11:54pm

VEERS: "Comscan has detected an energy field protecting an area on the sixth planet of the Hoth System. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment."

VADER: "The rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system."

But didn't the rebels start making preparations for their evacuation and an Imperial attack right after Han destroyed the probe droid? It seems to me that Vader made an incorrect assumption when he blamed Ozzel for the rebel shield being up when they arrived at Hoth.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2006-08-29 12:02am

Sensor detect a fleet of star destroyers in sector 4

Reroute all power to the engery shield. We will have to hold them until all transports are away. Prepare for ground assault

Counciler · Post by **Counciler** » 2006-08-29 12:33am

Wait a minute.. with a SSD and a fleet of ISDs.. how could they get close enough to the system to do any damage without being seen? What did Vader expect Ozzel to do?

If Ozzel warps in close to the planet.. the Rebels see them and raise the shield.

If Ozzel warps in far from the planet... the Rebels will see them on thier APPROACH to the planet.... and rasie shields.

I dont see how Vader planned to attack the planet without being noticed. You cant do a BDZ from the other side of the system.... can you?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2006-08-29 12:40am

Counciler wrote:Wait a minute.. with a SSD and a fleet of ISDs.. how could they get close enough to the system to do any damage without being seen? What did Vader expect Ozzel to do?

To come out far enough from the system that they can avoid immediate detection. At this point, the Imperials know where the Rebels are - the reverse can't be said (the Rebels know the Imps are coming, but they don't know where they'll come from or when they'll be there)

If Ozzel warps in close to the planet.. the Rebels see them and raise the shield.

If Ozzel warps in far from the planet... the Rebels will see them on thier APPROACH to the planet.... and rasie shields.

Or the Imps come out far enough away that the Rebels won't spot them immediately, and so the Imps will have the initiative (Vader talks of a clean surface bombardment which was a tactic rendered impossible to implement because Ozzel came out of hyperspace too close to Hoth and the Rebels spotted them too quickly and the shields went up immediately).

I dont see how Vader planned to attack the planet without being noticed. You cant do a BDZ from the other side of the system.... can you?

First, do you know what a BDZ is and why nothing of the like would have been ordered by Vader?

Deathstalker · Post by **Deathstalker** » 2006-08-29 12:41am

I am a believe Adm. Ozzel got rooked. He made the mistake of not being a toad to Vader, when he should have realized that what Vader wants, Vader gets. The Rebels already knew the Empire, there was no chance of suprise, but the Imps couldn't know that unless tie probe droid had gotten off a message. Had the Imps been able to maintain suprise, then I think Ozzel's tactic had a good chance of succeding. Hyper in and blast the genarators using the on-site probe or targeting provided previously. It would have been then just a matter of bloackading the few ships the Rebels might have managed toe get spaceborne. Ozzel's only mistake was not being a yes man to Vader

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2006-08-29 12:41am

Counciler wrote:Wait a minute.. with a SSD and a fleet of ISDs.. how could they get close enough to the system to do any damage without being seen? What did Vader expect Ozzel to do?

If Ozzel warps in close to the planet.. the Rebels see them and raise the shield.

If Ozzel warps in far from the planet... the Rebels will see them on thier APPROACH to the planet.... and rasie shields.

I dont see how Vader planned to attack the planet without being noticed. You cant do a BDZ from the other side of the system.... can you?

Venator turbolasers, twenty years previously during the Clone Wars, could fire accurately from four light-minutes away. Something like that. That is a really, REALLY fucking long distance away.

IIRC, the plan wasn't as much to get in before the shield was raised, but also to prevent the Rebels escaping-- as seen in the movie, a shitload of freighters and fighters, as well as presumably much military equipment, was able to make its way away before the Imperial craft closed in.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-08-29 12:44am

Counciler wrote:Wait a minute.. with a SSD and a fleet of ISDs.. how could they get close enough to the system to do any damage without being seen? What did Vader expect Ozzel to do?

If Ozzel warps in close to the planet.. the Rebels see them and raise the shield.

If Ozzel warps in far from the planet... the Rebels will see them on thier APPROACH to the planet.... and rasie shields.

I dont see how Vader planned to attack the planet without being noticed. You cant do a BDZ from the other side of the system.... can you?

General Reiken told Han Solo (or was perhaps mentioning it to another as Han came up) that it was going to be tough to detect approaching ships because of all the asteroids in that system.

Later, when Vader's fleet arrived right on top of them, the Rebels were able to detect the fleet dropping out of hyperspace.

IMO, the reversion to realspace gave off some sort of signal or energy burst that the rebels could detect. But if the Imperials dropped out on the edge of the system and worked their way in using the asteroids for cover (IR? Motion? Don't know but it's been a tactic in the EU too) they could get tactical surprise on the rebels.

Deathstalker · Post by **Deathstalker** » 2006-08-29 12:54am

Rebels had starfighters for patrols, odds are good that they would have spotted the fleet as it made it's way in-system. I can't believe the Rebs would rely entiely on their sensors, espcially with the stakes so high. Had Vader been more forthcoming about his plans, specifically that he wanted to capture a particular Reb, then it would make sense to jump in out-system, beyond sensor range, and keep the base under observation. Vader knew Luke was a pilot, and if he Force sensed him while Luke was on patrol, then it is a matter of jumping him and tractoring him in. Hoth would be irreleveant, and would be BDZed ten seconds after Skywalker was aboard.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-08-29 01:32am

Yeah, their secret base would definately have heaps of fighters flying around! That way, the probe droid wouldn't even have had to land to spot them!

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2006-08-29 02:12am

Ozzel should not have questioned Vader's command to head for the Hoth System. Not because he should have to pee his pants every time the Dark Lord gives an order, but finding a powerful shield generator on an uninhabited frozen ass end of the galaxy should be more of a giveaway that it isn't just pirates or smugglers. I believe that decision, coupled his percieved tactical miscue was the last straw. Especially after Vader was proven correct. Did he deserve to get choked to death? Possibly not, but in Vader's eyes he was incompetent and he wouldn't have held his position on the Executor for much longer regardless.

I get the feeling that, although the evacuation of Echo Base was already underway, the arrival of the Imperial forces hastened it and allowed the Rebels time to put up a defense. If the rebels had decided to evacuate without knowledge of the approaching fleet they would have been caught off guard, and Death Squadron would have killed many more. The added surprise of catching the Rebels off guard might have allowed the Empire to circumvent the defense waged by the Ion Cannon, and maybe the defense shield (not as likely).

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-08-29 02:33am

Knife wrote:IMO, the reversion to realspace gave off some sort of signal or energy burst that the rebels could detect. But if the Imperials dropped out on the edge of the system and worked their way in using the asteroids for cover (IR? Motion? Don't know but it's been a tactic in the EU too) they could get tactical surprise on the rebels.

I had thought that Vader's plan was to drop in at the edge of the Hoth system under cover of the asteroid activity, scan the ice planet, identify all the targets to hit, when to hit them, etc., and then eiher bombard from their location, or conduct a pinpoint jump to near the planetary surface and take out the shields immediately upon exit, rather than taking the time to scan and identify targets.

Ozzel's mistake, as I see it, was to strive for the element of surprise immediately, when the Death Squadron couldn't capitalize off of the surprise quickly enough for it to be effective (i.e., they didn't know where the shield generator was, I assume).

Of course, this is predicated on the notion that the probe droid didn't transmit the location of the shield generator along with its images. I'm not entirely sure of the truth of that proposition, though.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2006-08-29 03:13am

Darth Fanboy wrote:Ozzel should not have questioned Vader's command to head for the Hoth System. Not because he should have to pee his pants every time the Dark Lord gives an order, but finding a powerful shield generator on an uninhabited frozen ass end of the galaxy should be more of a giveaway that it isn't just pirates or smugglers. I believe that decision, coupled his percieved tactical miscue was the last straw. Especially after Vader was proven correct. Did he deserve to get choked to death? Possibly not, but in Vader's eyes he was incompetent and he wouldn't have held his position on the Executor for much longer regardless.

I get the feeling that, although the evacuation of Echo Base was already underway, the arrival of the Imperial forces hastened it and allowed the Rebels time to put up a defense. If the rebels had decided to evacuate without knowledge of the approaching fleet they would have been caught off guard, and Death Squadron would have killed many more. The added surprise of catching the Rebels off guard might have allowed the Empire to circumvent the defense waged by the Ion Cannon, and maybe the defense shield (not as likely).

Even if it was Pirates or smugglers, they both are criminals. Any Pirate with that kind of gear needs to have their rears handed to them. If it is Rebels, which is most likely, so much the better. The fact that anyone has a base on that Hell hole is a reason for investigation. it left up to ozzel, they would have ignored the report and fly on. Its only because Piett purposely talked loud so Vader could hear that they went to Hoth. Ozzel was incompitent at best a traitor at worst.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2006-08-29 03:55am

Counciler wrote:Wait a minute.. with a SSD and a fleet of ISDs.. how could they get close enough to the system to do any damage without being seen? What did Vader expect Ozzel to do?

If Ozzel warps in close to the planet.. the Rebels see them and raise the shield.

If Ozzel warps in far from the planet... the Rebels will see them on thier APPROACH to the planet.... and rasie shields.

I dont see how Vader planned to attack the planet without being noticed. You cant do a BDZ from the other side of the system.... can you?

Without ECM interfering with them, Imperial naval artillery can accurately strike targets at ranges measured in AUs. They could have dropped out of hyperspace out of detection range of the planet, fired a few precision shots to wreck the generators, then made a microjump into orbit and picked off the transports, the ion cannon, and anything else they wanted at will, without killing Skywalker. And they could have droped troops right into Echo Base without the time consuming walk from the perimeter, and they could have had air support from the beginning of the battle, and TIEs could have been used to ensure X-wings and maybe the odd tramp freighter couldn't take off, et cetera. Ozzel really screwed the pooch all the way around, honestly.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-08-29 07:00am

After Han and Chewie blow up the probe droid...

Han: "It's agood bet the Empire knows we're here."

Reiken: "We better start the evacuation."

The rebels begin evacuating but may or may not have raised the shields. Possibly standard procedure for planet wide evacuation to put the shields up since evacuation means that the Empire is on to them and could show at any minute or is already in orbit?

After Luke and Han say their goodbyes...

Comm guy: "General. There is a fleet of Star Destroyers comming out of hyperspace in sector 4."

Rieken: "Reroute all power to the energy shield. We got to hold them till all transports are away. Prepare for ground assult."

Now here you could say the shields are already up, but not at full, or using all avalible power. If they were down he might say "raise the shield" or "shields up" or whatever. However this could simply be his way of saying to raise the shield and make sure it has all avalible power.
Also the comm guy does say specifically that it is a fleet of Star Destroyers. Perhaps the shield at regular power is not strong enough to deflect that much firepower and hence rerouting all power to the shield.

On the Executor...

Vader: "What is it General?"

Veers: "My Lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Comscan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment."

Vader: "The rebels are alerted to our pressence. Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed to close to the system."

Veers: "He-he felt surprise was wiser-"

Vader: "He is as clumsy as he is stupid. General, prepare your troops for a surface attack."

Vader has plenty of experience traveling at lightspeed. He believes that Ozzel's late exit from hyperspace alerted the rebels to the fleets presence,
and either caused them to raise their shield or to power them up to full.

Also does the fact that Veers mentions that bombardment is no longer an option mean that it was one?

Vader turns to his viewer...

Ozzel: "Lord Vader. The fleet has moved out of lightspeed and we are preparing to- gah ugh...."

Vader: "You have failed me for the last time Admiral. Captain Piett..."

Now whether or not Ozzel did fuck up this time, apparently he was already on his last leg with Vader.

IMHO The shields were probably already up and the arrival of the Star Destroyers required that all avalible power be routed to them so that they could be "strong enough to deflect any bombardment".

Ozzel fucked up by trying to "surprise" the rebels and come out of lightspeed close enough so that they could detect the fleets hyperspace exit. So whether the rebels raised their shields or just made them stronger, it was because Ozzel didn't take a more conservative or stealthy approach. This was the last mistake that Vader could tolerate from a man that had already failed him at least once.

So no, I don't believe that Ozzel got a bad rap.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-08-29 07:08am

Deathstalker wrote:Rebels had starfighters for patrols, odds are good that they would have spotted the fleet as it made it's way in-system. I can't believe the Rebs would rely entiely on their sensors, espcially with the stakes so high. Had Vader been more forthcoming about his plans, specifically that he wanted to capture a particular Reb, then it would make sense to jump in out-system, beyond sensor range, and keep the base under observation. Vader knew Luke was a pilot, and if he Force sensed him while Luke was on patrol, then it is a matter of jumping him and tractoring him in. Hoth would be irreleveant, and would be BDZed ten seconds after Skywalker was aboard.

According to the new dialouge in TESB Vader no longer knows who Luke Skywalker is until the Emperor tells him on the Executor through the hologram. So Vader's fleet was just hunting the rebels and he was not yet looking for Luke.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-08-29 08:52am

^ That's contradicted by both the opening title crawl and the line "That is the system. And I'm sure Skywalker is with them."

Vader doesn't know for sure that Skywalker's his son, but he is obviously pretty damn suspicious. And the Emperor (in the retcon) doesn't know that the "young Rebel" is named Skywalker, or that Vader (who's been out in the field looking for this kid) has any more info than he does yet.

In other words, the Emperor used precog to learn that the Force-using guy who killed the Death Star is Anakin's son. Vader did the field work, found out the guy's named Skywalker, and is now obsessed with bringing him in alive. Hence the pursuit of the Falcon...either Luke's on it, or he knows someone who is.

So Vader's actually playing dumb in this scene with "How is that possible?" when he clearly suspects anyway. He doesn't even tell the Emperor what little he's found out so far. The reason for this is clear when Vader does corner Luke...and offers him the Number Two spot in an attempted coup!

Treachery is the way of the Sith.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2006-08-29 09:31am

Ozzel was an idiot

Here's what Vadar was thinking. Exit outside the system itself, compute a microjump to the target planet. Preform the job, now guess what? Your fleet's within spitting distance of the planet and the've had no idea you were coming.
Remeber the visuals and the novelisation, the fleet was still moving into blockade position when the first transports were running.

I'd be very suprised if the Rebels had a fully loaded and ready to go transport packed with personnel and supplies. In-fact we know they don't since we see the pilots getting briefed even as the Imperials are in system.

We know from EU that hanging outside the system while you get your forces ready to go is a normal standard tatic. You get everything ready to go then microjump on your target. You see this in everything from Thrawn's various attacks to the Dalaa SD-Attack on the Jedi Acdemy. Ozzet did not do this, he simply jumped to far into the system(Probably several LS/LM from the planet) but not far enough.

Also likley however the navigation people screwed up(Unless Ozzet ordered them to do something other than standard) and Ozzet took the fall. However I find this unlikley given that this is VADAR's command ship and it's mentioned several times in EU that being aboard the Executor was only for the best and brightest on a fast track to command.

Counciler · Post by **Counciler** » 2006-08-29 03:16pm

Well I had no idea that a Base Delta Zero could be carried out from a distance of light years... nor did I have any idea that individual turbolaser shots would be accurate enough at those ranges to strike specified targets like a generator.

I had always thought that a BDZ.... or any accurate turbolaser assault was a high orbit operation. My mistake.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2006-08-29 03:20pm

Anguirus wrote:^ That's contradicted by both the opening title crawl and the line "That is the system. And I'm sure Skywalker is with them."

Vader doesn't know for sure that Skywalker's his son, but he is obviously pretty damn suspicious. And the Emperor (in the retcon) doesn't know that the "young Rebel" is named Skywalker, or that Vader (who's been out in the field looking for this kid) has any more info than he does yet.

Palpatine knows Luke's identity. During the transmission to Vader in ESB he even says outright :"The Son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-08-29 03:27pm

Lightminutes/hours, not ly. And since TL bolts show no noticeable dissipation why shouldn't they be able to hit (moderately) pinpoint targets at those ranges, especially stationary (relatively) ones? That shield generator isn't going anywhere, at least not in not easily predicted ways.
As for the BDZ I wasn't aware that requires precision. As long as they hit the planet who cares a dead gundark where they hit?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-08-29 03:42pm

Batman wrote:As for the BDZ I wasn't aware that requires precision. As long as they hit the planet who cares a dead gundark where they hit?

True, a BDZ doesn't really require precise targeting. However, it was never Vader's intent to subject Hoth to large-scale bombing; he wanted Skywalker, and potentially other high-ranking members of the Rebel Alliance (as the fleet captured several of the fleeing frieghters rather than destroying them) alive.

And I think that the problem with long-range bombardment of a target capable of defending itself, even a stationary one, involves its ability, through ECM, to throw off the attacking ship's sensors, as RI pointed out. Certainly, a sustained long-range bombardment would eventually destroy the target, but it would be ineffective for precise strikes, and it would take much longer.

Pint0 Xtreme · Post by **Pint0 Xtreme** » 2006-08-29 04:13pm

Mr Bean wrote:Ozzel was an idiot

Here's what Vadar was thinking. Exit outside the system itself, compute a microjump to the target planet. Preform the job, now guess what? Your fleet's within spitting distance of the planet and the've had no idea you were coming.
Remeber the visuals and the novelisation, the fleet was still moving into blockade position when the first transports were running.

I'd be very suprised if the Rebels had a fully loaded and ready to go transport packed with personnel and supplies. In-fact we know they don't since we see the pilots getting briefed even as the Imperials are in system.

We know from EU that hanging outside the system while you get your forces ready to go is a normal standard tatic. You get everything ready to go then microjump on your target. You see this in everything from Thrawn's various attacks to the Dalaa SD-Attack on the Jedi Acdemy. Ozzet did not do this, he simply jumped to far into the system(Probably several LS/LM from the planet) but not far enough.

I think this assessment is a fairly good explanation. It's entirely possible that Ozzel thought Vader was full of shit and exiting that close to the system would have been a faster way of thoroughly scanning the system and, presuming no rebels would be found, moving back to the search.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-08-29 04:13pm

I was commenting on Counciler apparently thinking a BDZ requires precision. I am well aware that would have been counterproductive in the Hoth scenario.
And I very much doubt ECM was a factor in abovementioned scenario. Passive ECM (if we want to call it that) means stealthing your installations and that goes only so far. Active ECM may obscure the positions of the forces under the ECM's umbrella but makes the jammer itself a prime target and announces to the world at large that yes, there'a target here all right. Even if you can't pinpoint it.
Somehow I doubt the Rebels were using active jamming all that much, what with trying to use a low profile and all.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2006-08-29 07:18pm

If the Rebels were planning to steath their power generator, they hadn't done it yet.

From what we see in the movie they had barely just moved in and now they had to move out. Something else, Hoth did not have near the capacity of the Yavin Base.

I think that many of the transports that left the base might have just barely unloaded.

So at a distance Death Squadron could locate the power generator and perhaps sneak in an attck on it by tie bombers before the Rebels have time to react. Perhaps the Rebels had the shield off hoping to stay undetected as long as possible.

Jade Falcon · Post by **Jade Falcon** » 2006-08-29 07:26pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:Palpatine knows Luke's identity. During the transmission to Vader in ESB he even says outright :"The Son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

While it doesn't mean that its 100%, remember that Vader did say

"We have a new enemy....Luke Skywalker".

While Palpatine may know this is Anakin's son, alternatively it might not be the most common of names.