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I know Mike "has a life" so he hasn't completed his Episode III reactions page for the foreseeable future, but this struck me as the kind of thing that might go on there if he hasn't written it out already (and before anyone gets nitpicky and says this is "old news" please don't bother, I'm just posting this so it's all in one place for my convenience, and so read it if you like):

These are just some of the things I learned from the prequel movies that I either didn't know before or dispelled previously held notions myself and some of my friends had:


- Jedi can and do use the Force to attack, including against "biological beings" (previously we thought Jedi would refuse to do this, or only against droids... we knew Jedi could attack first, but figured they wouldn't use offensive force against a living enemy in battle).

- Force powers can be used in combination (like choking somebody whilst levitating them into the air, or zapping somebody with lightning while levitating them or throwing them).

- The Force can be used on more than one being simultaneously (pushing/pulling two at once, we thought it was limited to one at a time).

- The Force can make an old cripple springy and acrobatic, who goes back to normal after the effect wears off. (previously we thought that when you got old, all you could do was see the future, meditate and lift stuff, that sort of thing, not leap around against young whipper snappers)

- Trained Jedi/Sith are not immune to Force attacks (ie: we figured Luke in ROTJ was argued to be untrained, surprised, or letting himself be attacked to prove a point, and that Jedi/Sith would have to rely on lightsabers in actual combat with each other).

- Jedi/Sith can attack each other with the Force in the midst of a lightsaber battle (previously we thought their powers either cancelled each other out or they were "concentrating too hard" to be able to use the Force).

- Certain powers aren't limited to one "side" of the Force in an individual (though there's still speculation on this, it seems the powers we see traditionally viewed as "dark" are also usable by non-Dark Siders).

Interesting things about Force Lighting:

You can block it with a lightsaber (this was mentioned in the EU previously though).

You can use a lightsaber to "press it back onto the attacker" (didn't think this would happen).

You can use it to knock a lightsaber out of a Jedi's hand (we figured it would always be blocked).

You can use it with one or both hands (and the hand positions and gestures can be varied). (we thought maybe the hand gestures meant something)

It can be blocked by a Jedi's palm (or two at once). (figured you needed a lightsaber or you had to create a "wall" around yourself with the Force to push it away)

It can be "deflected" with one hand and explodes against a wall.

It can be "redirected" or "throw back" (the weird scene where Yoda uses lightning which is so controversial in AOTC)

It can be "absorbed" into the hand. (okay, the JK games inspired us about this one)

It can make your skeleton glow mysteriously (Vader wasn't an anomaly).

It can melt Palpy's face (but nobody else's). (didn't see this one coming!)

Steam rises from the flesh/clothes of its victims (but their clothes aren't otherwise visibly damaged).

It apparently can be combined with levitation or has thrust force (Yoda gets slammed against a wall by it, Anakin is levitated up and away, Windu is hurled far out a window).

A possible correction, the lightsaber itself most likely cannot reflect Sith lightning, but does make a handy tool to block it. Either Anakin or Obi Wan at the beginning of ROTs intercepts Dooku's lightning with his lightsaber and disperses it. Windu, however, reflects it back at Palpatine which strongly suggests to me that the first instance was just standard lightsaber energy blocking as the lightning isn't deflected, it just sparks across the blade and dissipates. Windu must therefore be using the force to reflect it back at Palpatine in a method which could be closely related to the way Yoda was able to channel force lightning after first absorbing it. The novelization goes into more depth about this but is fairly clear that Windu is using the force.

So, you learnt a bunch of stupid crap from the EU was wrong?

Things like 'jedi don't use force on biologicals' and 'force powers are restricted by alignment' are just so laughable only the EU could have inspired such nonsense.

The novelization goes into more depth about this but is fairly clear that Windu is using the force.

I think it specifically says that it was due to his Vapaad technique making him part of a 'conduit' for the dark side.

Stark wrote:So, you learnt a bunch of stupid crap from the EU was wrong?

Things like 'jedi don't use force on biologicals' and 'force powers are restricted by alignment' are just so laughable only the EU could have inspired such nonsense.

That one's especially heinous because we see Jedi doing EXACTLY THAT in th OT. Whether it be ObiWan mindtricking stormtroopers, or Luke force choking Jabba's guards in ROTJ, Jedi holding biological beings sacrosanct is a load o' crap.

Noes Luke wasn't a true jedi he didn't know the rules from the rpg!!!!111 I swear someone will say that.

I thought it was only mind-raping biological beings, ala Joruus C'baoth, that Jedi held sacrosanct.

Could someone provide an example of a Jedi saying something along the lines of not using the force on living beings?

atg wrote:I thought it was only mind-raping biological beings, ala Joruus C'baoth, that Jedi held sacrosanct.

Could someone provide an example of a Jedi saying something along the lines of not using the force on living beings?

There's nothing outright that I can call to memory from the EU myself, but I can see how Yoda's line about 'we are luminous beings', or some such from that particular dialogue, could be applied to 'no touchy-touchy meatbags'. Qui-gon Jinn and Obi-Wan going all Braveheart on the battle droids in Episode I likely didn't help, either...

People have always been chary about accepting Jedi using tk to disable or kill people. I don't know why, personally, but I've seen the 'only on droids' argument raised here many times.

Stark wrote:Noes Luke wasn't a true jedi he didn't know the rules from the rpg!!!!111 I swear someone will say that.

That's rediculous, Luke merely takes a Dark Side Point and removes it later after he heroicly saves everyone, heroic acts recieve 1-3 Force Points upon completion, and you can remove them by sacrificing Force Points.

Well I think we reasoned it like "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack" not to mean that a Jedi just let's the other guy take the first swing, or uses a philosophy of "pre-emptive defense" (to use Mike's term), but that they simply wouldn't use the Force to attack somebody, and so Luke is doing something naughty here in ROTJ (or we just forget about that scene) and that a "real Jedi" wouldn't do that.

We figured, droids are an exception because they're not connected to the force or something (now that I think about it, THIS point seems reinforced more by the EU. there is a definite anti-droid prejudice expressed in the OT, but nothing to suggest the Jedi would automatically approve of it).

Kurgan wrote: - Jedi can and do use the Force to attack, including against "biological beings" (previously we thought Jedi would refuse to do this, or only against droids... we knew Jedi could attack first, but figured they wouldn't use offensive force against a living enemy in battle).

Luke choked the Gammorean guards in RotJ.

- The Force can be used on more than one being simultaneously (pushing/pulling two at once, we thought it was limited to one at a time).

Luke lifted Yoda, R2, rocks, crates etc simulatenously at various points in TESB. All while standing on his head and looking into the future.

- Trained Jedi/Sith are not immune to Force attacks (ie: we figured Luke in ROTJ was argued to be untrained, surprised, or letting himself be attacked to prove a point, and that Jedi/Sith would have to rely on lightsabers in actual combat with each other).

Not immune, but they do have a defence against them. RotJ novel: any force attack can be repelled with the force. They just have to be ready.

- Jedi/Sith can attack each other with the Force in the midst of a lightsaber battle (previously we thought their powers either cancelled each other out or they were "concentrating too hard" to be able to use the Force).

The first crate that strikes Luke in his duel with Vader in TESB is while they've locked sabres (after that Vader moves back and just bombards him).

You can use a lightsaber to "press it back onto the attacker" (didn't think this would happen).

That's Mace Windu / Vaapaad style specific. RotS novel.

Would Mace have been able to resist force lightning like Yoda or through vapaad had he lost his lightsabre but was not caught off guard?

I was thinking that since Mace's resistance to the force lightning was less due to his lightsabre and more to vaapad, even had he lost his hand but not caught off guard he could have resisted the force lightning. Of course nursing a serious injury and having to deal with force lightning at max power, he might still have been snuffed by Augie.

Whoa, wait... it's not like we didn't think this through (even if we were wrong)!

Vympel wrote:

Kurgan wrote: - Jedi can and do use the Force to attack, including against "biological beings" (previously we thought Jedi would refuse to do this, or only against droids... we knew Jedi could attack first, but figured they wouldn't use offensive force against a living enemy in battle).

Luke choked the Gammorean guards in RotJ.

The explanation was "Luke was dipping dangerously towards the Dark Side".. notice the other "symbolism" where he wrote black and had a mechanical hand just like Vader? And his saber isn't blue anymore (hinting he's straying from the pure Jedi path). Plus he's barely trained! He ran away from his teachers in the previous movie, and now he's going towards the dark! <---- anyway, that's what would have been said back then to explain it. (nevermind the folks who said he really didn't choke them, of course!)

Vympel wrote:

Kurgan wrote:- The Force can be used on more than one being simultaneously (pushing/pulling two at once, we thought it was limited to one at a time).

Luke lifted Yoda, R2, rocks, crates etc simulatenously at various points in TESB. All while standing on his head and looking into the future.

Note the bolded parts. Not multiple rocks, multiple beings. He didn't lift Yoda and R2D2 at the same time did he?

Besides, R2D2 is a droid, and thus to the Force, the same as a rock or inanimate box, and Yoda is balancing on top of Luke's foot while he's doing his hand stand, so he's not being 'lifted' at all.

Luke had to choke each guard individually.

Vympel wrote:

Kurgan wrote:- Trained Jedi/Sith are not immune to Force attacks (ie: we figured Luke in ROTJ was argued to be untrained, surprised, or letting himself be attacked to prove a point, and that Jedi/Sith would have to rely on lightsabers in actual combat with each other).

Not immune, but they do have a defence against them. RotJ novel: any force attack can be repelled with the force. They just have to be ready.

And the logic was, they always would be, except possibly Luke who wasn't well trained. We see that you can surprise Yoda with Lightning even with warning beforehand (what did he think was about to happen?), Obi-Wan with a push, etc etc. You can even surprise Jedi without Force powers! But I digress...

The idea was, Obi-Wan and Vader would have been pushing each other around and choking each other and tossing things about during their duel in ANH, but they both knew they would have cancelled each other out, so they just stuck to pure saber fencing. Lucas would later explain it was because they were old men that it was a "hard fight" but that really doesn't fit anymore with the last two movies.

Vympel wrote:

Kurgan wrote:- Jedi/Sith can attack each other with the Force in the midst of a lightsaber battle (previously we thought their powers either cancelled each other out or they were "concentrating too hard" to be able to use the Force).

The first crate that strikes Luke in his duel with Vader in TESB is while they've locked sabres (after that Vader moves back and just bombards him).

Right, and the excuse was that since Luke was "barely trained" he wasn't up to Jedi snuff. Two "real Jedi/Sith" fighting would be unable to pull tricks like that on each other.

Vympel wrote:

Kurgan wrote:You can use a lightsaber to "press it back onto the attacker" (didn't think this would happen).

That's Mace Windu / Vaapaad style specific. RotS novel.

Which didn't exist before (?) 2002... Point is, without the EU explanation, none of us would have assumed it was possible. Either the lightning blasts through you or it hits the lightsaber and "stops." You can't bounce it back (and why would the person throwing it continue to blast away knowing he's just hitting himself continuously?). Besides, before that novel came out, had we any hint that you could do that with Vapaad? (it wasn't just a badass lightsaber style that only Samuel L. Jackson had mastered since he invented it?)

A rather confusing scene if all you've seen are the previous movies. Now we know.


Btw, who's "Augie"?

Btw, who's "Augie"?

Fan nickname for Palpatine. It comes from the song that plays at the end of TPM, which is called Augie's Great Municipal Band. Some people like to claim that as proof (either seriously or jokingly) that Palpatine's given name is Augustus.

General Schatten wrote:That's rediculous, Luke merely takes a Dark Side Point and removes it later after he heroicly saves everyone, heroic acts recieve 1-3 Force Points upon completion, and you can remove them by sacrificing Force Points.

You terrify me.

Good.... good...

It's not a good thing. Next you'll tell me that experience levels are 'realistic and accurate'.

I've learned to never take any observations by Kurgan at face value.

A while ago I did a rationalisation of why Jedi don't seem to use TK every time it'd be useful. A lot of prequel scenarios initially look like they could have been easily dealt with by a mere wave of the hand.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I've learned to never take any observations by Kurgan at face value.

My plan for world dominance is working perfectly!

The old "no TK on living things" idea comes from the RPG, where apparently using TK to crush living tissue is a horrifying experience for the user. For one thing, you can "feel" the trachea or artery being constricted, much as if you were to do it with your own hands. For another, since living tissue is innately intertwined with the Force, it's using the Force to hurt itself, which is.. uh, no good.
Doing it tends you toward getting a predisposition for the sort of callous cruelty and disregard for life that corrupts a Force user, i.e. the Dark Side.

But apparently in the same RPG, even though "Force Strike" and "Force Grip" are Bad™, it's mostly okay to use Move Object to push someone. Even if they happen to smack against a wall. Go figure.

But seriously, go check out Winston Blake's rationalization for sparsity of Force use.

Kurgan wrote:and why would the person throwing it continue to blast away knowing he's just hitting himself continuously?).

Because Mace would've chopped him otherwise. Duh.

Actually the RPG has changed the rules on Grip and Strike. Strike Vs Droid Okay (Before)/Okay (Now), Strike vs Human Darkside/Okay. Grip has been retconned by Maces Episode in the Clone Wars MS, where he untightened bolts, Force Strike is described as a more focused version of the Move Object Skill to push something while grip is described as using Move Object on a particular area; much more efficient, though painful way of killing than Force Strike. Grip vs Droid Darkside/Okay and Grip Vs Human Darkside/Darkside.

Cykeisme wrote:The old "no TK on living things" idea comes from the RPG, where apparently using TK to crush living tissue is a horrifying experience for the user. For one thing, you can "feel" the trachea or artery being constricted, much as if you were to do it with your own hands. For another, since living tissue is innately intertwined with the Force, it's using the Force to hurt itself, which is.. uh, no good.
Doing it tends you toward getting a predisposition for the sort of callous cruelty and disregard for life that corrupts a Force user, i.e. the Dark Side.

But apparently in the same RPG, even though "Force Strike" and "Force Grip" are Bad™, it's mostly okay to use Move Object to push someone. Even if they happen to smack against a wall. Go figure.

It's possible my buds could have been remembering the RPG, however unconsciously. It seems to have permeated most of the fandom in some form or another!

The "Push loophole" is funny, because it occurs in Mysteries of the Sith as an apparent bug. In that game (in single player), if you slay an unarmed NPC it drains your force mana as "punishment." But if you Force Push somebody against a wall (smack) or off a cliff, you lose nothing, even if they die.

But seriously, go check out Winston Blake's rationalization for sparsity of Force use.

Okay.

Because Mace would've chopped him otherwise. Duh.

Duh... And he only stopped because he was (pretending to be) "too weak" to keep up the lightning barrage. He should have aimed a bit slower initially I guess, and knocked the saber out of his hand.

Kurgan wrote:Well I think we reasoned it like "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack" not to mean that a Jedi just let's the other guy take the first swing, or uses a philosophy of "pre-emptive defense" (to use Mike's term), but that they simply wouldn't use the Force to attack somebody, and so Luke is doing something naughty here in ROTJ (or we just forget about that scene) and that a "real Jedi" wouldn't do that.

We figured, droids are an exception because they're not connected to the force or something (now that I think about it, THIS point seems reinforced more by the EU. there is a definite anti-droid prejudice expressed in the OT, but nothing to suggest the Jedi would automatically approve of it).

lets take a certain old man in his ghostly shroud "From a Certain Point of View". From anybodies point of view their actions seem reasonable. You argue that (not you particular mind you) that Obi Wan used his powers to warp the stormies mind and some people say that was an attack. Not really, take it from old Bens perspective: He was protecting himself, Luke and the 2 droids. And there you have it: Boom he used his powers for defense.
Luke used the force to choke the Gomerians (sp i know) Think about him having to get into the palace to save his friends and boom: hes using his powers for defense not attack.

In prequels: Yoda absorbs the lighting and shoots it back to Dooku. seems very offensive now dosent it. But hmm Yodas point of view goes something along the lines as "Dooku once Padawan, stun him I will. Save Obi-Wan and Young Skywalker I Must".
and boom you got a offensive looking attack becoming Defensive.

I proven my point