A critique of the clone wars in prequels

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2006-09-14 01:37pm

When the clone wars were mentioned in the original triology I assumed it to be an epic galactic conflict. Obiwan and Anakin were the legendary heroes who fought in that war. Well the prequel trilogy tries to portray it as such but fails in many ways. Firstly the droid army is laughable. The battledroids look like they are made of plastic and speak with a voice suitable for a children’s TV show. The later super battledroids were a refreshing change but they retain the stupid voice.

Overall it is hard to feel sympathy for anyone in the clone wars. Stupid looking plastic droids get blown up in one side and expendable clones are killed on the other. There is no real sense of loss or horrors of war. The CIS being mostly alien don’t help either. It is hard to identify with crazy looking CGI creatures. On the Republic side we do not see the military command structure like Imperial military hierarchy we saw and loved from the originals. It would have been great to see Republic captains; admirals etc but all we see are clones manning the venators and that too for a mere few seconds. If there were actual people fighting in this war - people with dreams, lives and aspirations that get cut short by this conflict then the clone wars would had been far better. As it is it is the clone wars look like a video game.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2006-09-14 03:42pm

Evidently, Star Wars is for kids, so we can't have that.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-09-14 03:49pm

I always thought the Clone Wars were sort of like a clone arms race.
Two sides manufacturing clones to fight ground wars, while space pilots like Anakin and naval crews were normal humans.
I would've also liked to see worlds getting glassed and brutal battles between armies of clones and some human divisions too.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-09-14 03:59pm

The real problem, I think, was the simple fact that Lucas didn't give the war enough screen time to be fully developed. Whether or not the Clone Wars should have been the focus of Ep. II/III is a question of debate, but there is certainly some merit to the idea, especially considering the way it is built up previously. Personally, I don't have any major stylistic qualms with the the way it was set up; a massive army of Clones (even if non-clone officers should have appeared more) and native loyalist forces versus legions of droid soldiers with largely alien backers seems like a perfectly sound arrangement, if executed correctly. However, for various reasons, the films simply didn't show us very much of the conflict, and what time that is given is largely cut so as not to interfere with escapades of the main characters. If more time had been alloted to the war, I think it probably would have developed onscreen far better, as is hinted at in brief segments like the Invasion of Kashyyyk and the street fighting on Utapua.

Nevertheless, I agree that there were some problems with what we did see as well. I will never understand why anyone thought giving battle droids high-pitched voices was a good idea, and the buzz droid sequence at the beginning of ROTS did detract rather significantly from the battle as a whole, if only by sucking up time. Over all, however, I think it all ties back to the decision not to really focus on the conflict in the latter films of the PT.

Though it is still hit or miss, I do think that the Clone Wars was one of the periods that EU has expanded upon the best. Books like the Medstar duology and Shatterpoint portray a grittier side of the war, as well as giving time to combatants and auxillaries outside the normal CIS and Republican ranks. Some of the comics paint an appropriately dismal view of the war, and exhibit tactics, weaponry, and combat that could be considered lacking from the films. Cestus Deception, Dark Lord, and even Republic Commando breathe a certain amount of life into the Clone Corps, and give them much needed character. And, of course, there were the cartoons, which did an admirable job of encapsulating much of the expansion from the rest of the EU and presenting it in a more filmic and fast-paced manner (and I must admit, I actually liked the Grievous of the cartoon better than the version presented in ROTS).

In short, there was a great deal of potential even in the concept of the war as given, but there was simply too little time alloted to expanded upon it fully, and what was inserted did lack a certain essence without any supporting material. Perhaps Lucas should have scripted the movies so as to showcase the war more fully, but that goes into changing the entire flow, focus, and likely even the message of the prequels, and that's an issue for another thread.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-09-14 04:23pm

Frankly even the story scenes in Battlefront II depicted a grittier war than what we see in the movies.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-09-14 05:06pm

Cao Cao wrote:I always thought the Clone Wars were sort of like a clone arms race.
Two sides manufacturing clones to fight ground wars, while space pilots like Anakin and naval crews were normal humans.
I would've also liked to see worlds getting glassed and brutal battles between armies of clones and some human divisions too.

Thats that impression i got which was reinforced by the Heir To The Empire trilogy. In it Mara Jade gets involved against Thrawn claiming "I'm not gonna stit back while a bunch of cold faced clones try and take over the galaxy" futher backed by by Lando in the 3rd book proclaiming that "Mount Tanasis(sp?) must have belonged to one of Palpatines Clone Masters".

My thoughts where that the Republic was involved in civil war, both sides used clones, the Clones rebelled and joined forces sick of dying for non-clones. The Jedi fought back and led the army of normal flesh and bloods.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-09-14 05:24pm

I have no problem with the overarching storyline of a separatist movement backed with the vast resources of wealthy galactic corporations attempting to break away from the Republic.
Remember that an important point is that the whole war is run by the Sith Lord who's playing both sides.

Noble Ire is right about the movies giving way too little screen time to the war itself. The EU does an excellent job of fleshing it out, of course, but it would still have been nice to have more movie time spent on the war.

My critique of the Clone Wars in the prequels goes like this: not enough of the Clone Wars in the prequels!

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-09-14 10:40pm

I doubt Lucas ever even intended for the Clone Wars to be the focus of the prequels, or for the audience to feel any sympathy for its participants (besides the main characters and Jedi). The Clone Wars were just a tool by Palpatine to gain political and military power, and the ROTS novelization openly says that. The war was just a backdrop for the real story, which was the fall of Anakin Skywalker.

Were the Clone Wars actually ever "built up," or was the conflict partially a brain bug that was hyped up in the imaginations of the fans? The one mention of it in the movies merely said that Anakin and Obi-Wan fought in it together. Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy did mention armies of psychotic clones, but time has shown that Zahn's vision in those early books was a lot different than what George Lucas envisioned. Other EU sources merely made mention of it as a part of recent SW history, but also never went into detail about it.

I agree about the battledroid's voices. There was no reason for them to sound so harmless and kiddie. I was able to let it slide when regular droids spoke that way in TPM, but it just sounded really stupid when super battledroids spoke in ROTS, which was supposed to be a much more serious movie (even in the first act, which was light-hearted relative to the rest of the movie). It would have been much better if the droids were presented as a swarm of terrifying, soulless killing machines.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2006-09-14 11:02pm

Cao Cao wrote:I always thought the Clone Wars were sort of like a clone arms race.
Two sides manufacturing clones to fight ground wars, while space pilots like Anakin and naval crews were normal humans.
I would've also liked to see worlds getting glassed and brutal battles between armies of clones and some human divisions too.

we saw the clones vs clones in the Republic comics final story arcs right before Sith comes out issues #74-77

What Lucasfilm had intended us all to do (i think i was the only one besides Lucas and James Luceno who did this) but we were all suppose to read the comics and books and watch the Clone Wars Cartoon. If you did that then you get the the whole Clone Wars, you see the loses the worlds being destroyed and lives being destroyed Battle For Jabiim

and if you didnt do that then you have the questions about the clone wars that are stated in this thread

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-09-15 09:23am

Jim Raynor wrote:I doubt Lucas ever even intended for the Clone Wars to be the focus of the prequels, or for the audience to feel any sympathy for its participants (besides the main characters and Jedi). The Clone Wars were just a tool by Palpatine to gain political and military power, and the ROTS novelization openly says that. The war was just a backdrop for the real story, which was the fall of Anakin Skywalker.

Yes, after thinking about what Raynor and Celchu said, I change my position on the topic. I suppose the fact that the Clone Wars happened are absolutely, critically important, but the details of the events that occurred in the war are ultimately trivial when taken in the broader context (taking into account the Sith plan).

As such, it probably isn't all that bad that the movies limit the time spent on it. Once again, I must state that that job is left to the EU, which does an excellent job, between the comics, novels and cartoons.
Recall also that plans still exist for a television series that will focus on the Clone Wars.

More agreement on the battle droid voices. They would have been better at their roles (killing machines, dammit) if they were given booming bassy, mechanical voices (check out the Super Battle Droids in the Republic Commando game), or better yet, if they didn't speak at all. That's why droidekas seem so much more sinister than the other droid models: they only speak with their blasters!

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-09-15 09:39am

Jim Raynor wrote:I doubt Lucas ever even intended for the Clone Wars to be the focus of the prequels, or for the audience to feel any sympathy for its participants (besides the main characters and Jedi). The Clone Wars were just a tool by Palpatine to gain political and military power, and the ROTS novelization openly says that.

Oddly enough, yes. Even in 1976, when the depiction of Palpatine was radically different, the essentials of his rise to power were the same. From the Star Wars (novel) Prologue:

"Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic. Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears."

While the novel's widely believed to have been written by Alan Dean Foster, Lucas signed off on it, and so this is probably in line with what he had in mind for Palpatine's rise. The Trade Fed et al were always there, in some form. On the other hand, it's interesting to note that Palpatine isn't necesserily depicted as the ultimate bad guy there, but rather an 'if only the Fhurer knew' figure, controlled by the likes of Tarkin. However, that may just be reflecting the attitude most people have toward the Emperor. Whether or not he was conceived as a Sith Lord at that time is unknown to me.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-09-15 11:35am

Whoa, good quote, NecronLord, thanks.

So the Trade Federation, Inter-Galactic Banking Clan, Commerce Guild involvement etc was already on Lucas' mind those twenty years he waited. Fascinating.

In addition to the things that tie into the PT, even back from '76, I like the whole "if only the Fuhrer knew" idea toward the populace's view of Palpatine's rule. More fascinating.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-09-15 12:28pm

Some of the other stuff I've read suggests that Lucas' ideas on Palpatine only crystallised into his being the ultimate source of evil when he wrote ESB - where he clearly takes on this role.

Indeed, the first draft of SW has this in its prologue:

Until the recent Great Rebellion, the Jedi Bendu were the most feared warriors in the universe. For one hundred thousand years, generations of Jedi perfected their art as the personal bodyguards of the emperor. They were the chief architects of the invincible Imperial Space Force which expanded the Empire across the galaxy, from the celestial equator to the farthest reaches of the Great Rift.

Now these legendary warriors are all but extinct. One by one they have been hunted down and destroyed as enemies of the New Empire by a ferocious and sinister rival warrior sect, the Knights of Sith.

A small silver spacecraft emerges from behind one of the Utapau moons. The deadly little fightercraft speeds past several of the moons, until it finally goes into orbit around the fourth moon.

Even the Emperor's purge of the Jedi on false pretext of rebellion seems an old concept.

Upon this battle depends the survival of the Galactic Empire. Upon his battle depends the life and long continuity of our civilization. Not since the great Jedi Rebellion has our destiny been placed in such a balance. This is to be the most magnificent campaign of all! You have never been called without doing something to be remembered, something notable and striking. The conquering of the Aquilaean System, the last of the independent Systems, and the last refuge of the outlawed, vile sect of the Jedi, will have such important and lasting consequences, that I can't but consider it as an epoch in history.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2006-09-15 09:05pm

IIRC, Mark Hamill gave an interview between the releases of ANH and ESB in which he described what Lucas had told him about the death of Luke's father and the birth of Darth Vader: Obi-Wan, Vader and Luke's father are fighting, Vader kills Luke's father, Obi-Wan knocks Vader into a fire pit, the Emperor's shuttle lands and Obi-Wan flees. With the small change that "Luke's father" actually was Vader (which could have been Lucas deliberately misinforming Hamill to keep the secret), the description was pretty faithful to what actually happened in Episode III.

So Lucas probably conceived of the Emperor as the evil mastermind fairly early on, either in the late stages of ANH's development or just after its release.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-09-16 01:04am

The problem with the clone wars, imo, is that Lucas shat away two out of six hours of screen time on ep I. While I like ep I in style, they should have used that framwork to build up the clone wars and Anakin, so that shit could start going wrong in ep II.

Basically, GL ran out of time and film for the Clone Wars to be epic.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2006-09-16 02:02am

Knife wrote:The problem with the clone wars, imo, is that Lucas shat away two out of six hours of screen time on ep I. While I like ep I in style, they should have used that framwork to build up the clone wars and Anakin, so that shit could start going wrong in ep II.

Basically, GL ran out of time and film for the Clone Wars to be epic.

I completely agree. If only Episode 2 were actually Episode 1. Most of AOTC is exposition as well as romance subplot, the clones don't actually attack until the last like 20 minutes.

On the other hand, Lucas employed a writing technique that I love: he made the action and the war implied, or 'offscreen' as it were, and the character saga the focus. Still, I often think what TPM could have been like and sometimes wonder what it actually brings to the saga.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2006-09-16 03:14am

Stofsk wrote:
Knife wrote:The problem with the clone wars, imo, is that Lucas shat away two out of six hours of screen time on ep I. While I like ep I in style, they should have used that framwork to build up the clone wars and Anakin, so that shit could start going wrong in ep II.

Basically, GL ran out of time and film for the Clone Wars to be epic.
I completely agree. If only Episode 2 were actually Episode 1. Most of AOTC is exposition as well as romance subplot, the clones don't actually attack until the last like 20 minutes.

On the other hand, Lucas employed a writing technique that I love: he made the action and the war implied, or 'offscreen' as it were, and the character saga the focus. Still, I often think what TPM could have been like and sometimes wonder what it actually brings to the saga.

imo what TPM brought us was the last hoorah for the Jedi. Episode I showed us what the Jedi were doing all those generations and how their Order worked, how the Republic worked before the dark times, before the Empire. Episode II showed us the the begining of the end, the Jedi's powers were already dwindling and the Clone Wars started.

Episode I mainly gave us what the Star Wars saga would have been if not for Palps

For the record I love Episode I. I dont know maybe because i like Politics, and polital intrigue i dont know but to me it showed us how the Jedi had everything running "smoothly" and then Palps screwing it up. Thats what the prequels were about people

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-09-16 06:53am

Stofsk wrote:On the other hand, Lucas employed a writing technique that I love: he made the action and the war implied, or 'offscreen' as it were, and the character saga the focus. Still, I often think what TPM could have been like and sometimes wonder what it actually brings to the saga.

This is true, however I would've liked someone who's unbiased and not a sycophantic moron (i.e. not Rick McCallum and co) to proofread Lucas' character saga.
I get the sense that Eps II & III really want you to sympathise with Anakin. But I just can't, because he's written as a sociopathic petulant kid. Padme isn't really much better. Especially with that "losing the will to live" crap.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-09-16 12:53pm

Tychu wrote: imo what TPM brought us was the last hoorah for the Jedi. Episode I showed us what the Jedi were doing all those generations and how their Order worked, how the Republic worked before the dark times, before the Empire. Episode II showed us the the begining of the end, the Jedi's powers were already dwindling and the Clone Wars started.

Episode I mainly gave us what the Star Wars saga would have been if not for Palps

For the record I love Episode I. I dont know maybe because i like Politics, and polital intrigue i dont know but to me it showed us how the Jedi had everything running "smoothly" and then Palps screwing it up. Thats what the prequels were about people

Like I said, I enjoy the movie. The plot line makes sense and the characters (minus Jar Jar) are good. It's just that it's ten years prior to the events we want to see and baby Vader is a waste of film.

Push those events up five or eight years and introduce Anakin as a late teen or early twenty hot shot Naboo fighter pilots (with roots from Tattooine) and you now have more room for the raise and fall of Anakin Skywalker.

It was too rushed by the time of RotS, IMO. Both in terms of Anakin/Padme and Anakin/Obi as well as Anakin/Vader.