Shields and Radiation

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » 2006-09-19 10:12pm

Have any numbers been givin for the amount of radiation given out by relatively small shields such as the ones encompasing certain Droideka's?

According to Outbound Flight, personal shields cannot be used by organic soldiers due to the radiation they emit.

Could an Imperial Rad Trooper survive this radiation?

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-09-20 02:02am

If in Dark Forces, one could use a personal shield, how can that be true? Or is another retcon to "game mechanics"?

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2006-09-20 02:51am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:If in Dark Forces, one could use a personal shield, how can that be true? Or is another retcon to "game mechanics"?

To answer your question: Would you rather die every time you get shot by a Gran, Trandoshan, stormtrooper, Imperial soldier, officer, etc...?

[/i]

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2006-09-20 07:11am

Although they are quite rare, a number of personal force shields in use by "organics" has been seen over the years. The Black Fleet trilogy included a couple of alleged Imperial Intelligence operatives using such devices (actually they were illusions created by a force weirdo, but Luke wasn't very surprised to see those shields) and Yevethans using semi-portable squad level shields to protect chokepoints inside a Super Star Destroyer.

As for Rad Troopers, I'd say (completely random guess on my part) that even the standard NBC protection of standard Stormtrooper armour would protect from those effects, at least for a while. If they don't use personal shields it is probably because they are too expensive (the destroyer droid was the most expensive droid soldier of those mass-produced by the CIS).

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-09-20 08:21am

Prince Isolder uses a personal shield (albeit not a total-coverage one) in Courtship and there's no mention of radiation (other than the thing getting hotter the more fire it had to absorb IIRC) so either the problem is not endemic to all personal shields or was fixed in the time between.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2006-09-20 01:10pm

What about the Gungan shields? Evidently there are many different kinds of shields, and most likely not all of them produce lethal amounts of radiation. I think someone used a shield as an umbrella somewhere too.

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » 2006-09-20 02:19pm

Dooey Jo wrote:What about the Gungan shields? Evidently there are many different kinds of shields, and most likely not all of them produce lethal amounts of radiation. I think someone used a shield as an umbrella somewhere too.

That seem to fit with the other examples. Perhaps it was a property unique to Chiss shields.

It is also possible that Thrawn had no idea what he was talking about.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-09-20 03:13pm

Yoda wrote:
Dooey Jo wrote:What about the Gungan shields? Evidently there are many different kinds of shields, and most likely not all of them produce lethal amounts of radiation. I think someone used a shield as an umbrella somewhere too.
That seem to fit with the other examples. Perhaps it was a property unique to Chiss shields.

It is also possible that Thrawn had no idea what he was talking about.

The Chiss have often been demonstrated to possess technology that is quite different, even if it is often comperable, to that of the rest of the galaxy. It is entirely possible that, at least at the time of Outbound Flight, Chiss personal shields were inferior to those used by the Republic (as was, for example, their AI technology).

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-09-20 04:16pm

The shields of the droideka's are highly radioactive according to the AotC:VD, IIRC. And Isolder's shield wasn't good for your health if you came to close to it, too.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2006-09-20 06:38pm

FTeik wrote:The shields of the droideka's are highly radioactive according to the AotC:VD, IIRC.

It's probably cheaper to build it that way. At least some shields designed to be used by organics, such as the Gungan shields, don't appear to have that problem.

GrandAdmiralJello · Post by **GrandAdmiralJello** » 2006-09-20 07:17pm

Droideka shields are vastly different from Katarn's personal shielding, though. Remember--Katarn's shields were ineffective against physical impacts.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-09-20 07:27pm

It's been a while since I saw the PT but I can't recall the Droideka shields ever having to deal with physical impactors.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-09-20 07:30pm

GrandAdmiralJello wrote:Droideka shields are vastly different from Katarn's personal shielding, though. Remember--Katarn's shields were ineffective against physical impacts.

Well, that was only in the first few games. In the last two, they were quite effective against physical impacts other than from falling (and even force lightning!).

And the shield supercharge (aka Super Shield; not found in the latter two games) even made blaster shots bounce off.

Murazor wrote: As for Rad Troopers, I'd say (completely random guess on my part) that even the standard NBC protection of standard Stormtrooper armour would protect from those effects, at least for a while. If they don't use personal shields it is probably because they are too expensive (the destroyer droid was the most expensive droid soldier of those mass-produced by the CIS).

The Republic commandos in Republic Commando also got regenerating personal shields (always "on"), another game of course.

Mad wrote:
FTeik wrote:The shields of the droideka's are highly radioactive according to the AotC:VD, IIRC.
It's probably cheaper to build it that way. At least some shields designed to be used by organics, such as the Gungan shields, don't appear to have that problem.

In the ROTS Visual Dictionary, Palpatine has a personal shield over his CHAIR (I guess that's how he appeared to age so quickly, he?).

Not only do we have the Gungan handheld shields, but there's also the "shield windshield" of the bongo, and the shields in the cities (is it healthy to live that close to so many bubble shields? it might explain the apparent mental retardation certain Gungans suffer).

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-09-20 07:36pm

Kurgan that post would make a lot more sense if you explained what you were referring to in the first place.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-09-21 04:34am

My apologies. I edited the post to include the specific quotes that I had in mind which prompted my reply. My comments themselves are not edited.

fusion · Post by **fusion** » 2006-09-22 08:44pm

It seems like the cheap sheilds of the Gungan are battle ineffective because they last a very short amount of time and the battle worthy ones are too expensive to us by every trooper.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-09-22 08:57pm

fusion wrote:It seems like the cheap sheilds of the Gungan are battle ineffective because they last a very short amount of time
By that reasoning modern body armour is useless because soldiers go down the moment they are hit. Besides, the Gungans are NOT killed as long as the shield is up and can fight back for that time. That's ineffective how, exactly?
and the battle worthy ones are too expensive to us by every trooper.

As evidenced by-what? And define 'battle-worthy', please.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2006-09-23 08:49am

The underlying question here is, if droidekas have them, why don't soldiers all use personal shields? One answer given is 'radiation'. All the other examples involve either high-priority people and/or versions with limited capability.

i.e. A Prince, some super-special-forces, special very powerful battledroids and a special commando (Katarn).

Can only keep off water [umbrellas]
Small-scale limited-lifetime shield on pre-existing frame [Gungan]
Deadly radiation [droideka]

Blaster deflection, small total size, long lifetime, free of a frame, lack of radiation, and cost appear to features that must be traded off. I expect power supply size is another.

So the answer is probably that personal shielding is really expensive/difficult, and not practical for mass usage (e.g. could use the money instead to have a force 100x as large). Non-personal Gungan bubbles must be big enough to avoid the other problems (and they have a frame too).

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2006-09-23 11:20am

Batman wrote:
fusion wrote:It seems like the cheap sheilds of the Gungan are battle ineffective because they last a very short amount of time
By that reasoning modern body armour is useless because soldiers go down the moment they are hit. Besides, the Gungans are NOT killed as long as the shield is up and can fight back for that time. That's ineffective how, exactly?
and the battle worthy ones are too expensive to us by every trooper.
As evidenced by-what? And define 'battle-worthy', please.

I dont know what you mean by lasting a very short time. The Battle For Naboo we saw the Gungans using the shields, i never remember any of them turning off while a Gungan was using it. They turn off when the Gungan dies or is running away from the (what the hell were those Trade Fed. Tanks?)

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-09-23 12:59pm

Has anyone taken into account the functioning principles of shielding in Star Wars? Starships absorb the incoming energy blasts, store them in a heat sink and then re-radiate the excess energy as neutrinos.
Is all the equipment involved in every step of this process miniaturizable to man-portable size? If not, which parts cannot be? And if so, what alternatives are available to deal with the problem?
This may explain why only droids are easily equipped with personal shields.

Off the top of my head, I'd say that miniaturized neutrino generation might not be possible; other forms of of energy dispersal might be necessary. The emissions from the alternative method may pose an equal threat to an organic being. There may also be other problems involved.

Kurgan wrote:
GrandAdmiralJello wrote:Droideka shields are vastly different from Katarn's personal shielding, though. Remember--Katarn's shields were ineffective against physical impacts.
Well, that was only in the first few games. In the last two, they were quite effective against physical impacts other than from falling (and even force lightning!). And the shield supercharge (aka Super Shield; not found in the latter two games) even made blaster shots bounce off.

No, shields protect against neither falling damage nor punches in Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. Just jump off a high place to test the falling damage. As for punches, there are some Grans that will punch your character (notably in the betting parlor/bar in the second tier mission where you have to rescue miners being used as rancor victims for live betting).
Granted, oddly enough, shields still protect against the metal flechettes and bullets from the Golan Arms FC-1 and the heavy repeating slugthrower.

I'm a massive fan of the Republic Commando and Jedi series of games (I'm psycho about it, at least five to eight play-throughs), but I think the shields on Katarn-class armor (and the shields portrayed in the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series) can be chalked up to game mechanics. Clone Commandos appear in several other media (including the novels Republic Commando: Hard Contact, Republic Commando: Triple Zero, and Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader). In all these novels, either no mention is made of shields, or it is obvious that they have none. I believe literary portrayals of Kyle Katarn's exploits also omit the presence of personal shielding.
Canonically, combat-effective personal shielding is rare or non-existent.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-09-23 01:06pm

Concerning the costs IIRC the shielded droidekas are 200times more expansive than the unshielded (or I am confusing the droideka with the ordinary infantry-droid?).

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-09-23 01:17pm

Well, what about the size of the shield generators themselves and the weight?

The shields the Gungans used were powered by two large generators that had to be carried by two massive pack animals. The smaller shields were contained in the frame of the shield, but still wouldn't be practical for individual troops to carry. Only the first line of Gungans had them, and IIRC they were holding them with two hands.

I don't know the specs on the droidekas but they are probably pretty heavy and, thier frames could support the weight of the shield generators. Perhaps the reason they give off so much radiation is due to the fact that even they cant support the full weight of the generators and whatever components contained the radiation were sacraficed?

Hmmm... maybe the radiation was designed in on purpose. They were created when Jedi were around in abundance. Possibly a feature to keep them from getting to close to the droids?

Also, I though game mechanics weren't cannon?

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-09-23 01:18pm

Oh, sorry Cyke. Your post wasn't there when I started mine... customers bugging me at work and all.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-09-23 01:41pm

havokeff wrote:Oh, sorry Cyke. Your post wasn't there when I started mine... customers bugging me at work and all.

Np. Great minds, and all that

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-09-23 03:19pm

Cykeisme wrote:No, shields protect against neither falling damage nor punches in Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. Just jump off a high place to test the falling damage. As for punches, there are some Grans that will punch your character (notably in the betting parlor/bar in the second tier mission where you have to rescue miners being used as rancor victims for live betting).
Granted, oddly enough, shields still protect against the metal flechettes and bullets from the Golan Arms FC-1 and the heavy repeating slugthrower.

My expertise is in the multiplayer portion of JK2/JA. I don't recall how it works in Single Player, but in Multiplayer, you get shield flashes from punching or kicking someone, just as surely if you shoot them. Force Lightning attacks shields.

The only way to bypass shields and do direct health damage in the game is by making them hit the ground hard (falling damage), running them over with an AT-ST (instant death) or Force Gripping them. Even slamming them with a Swoop bike does shield damage first before health.

The shield functionality changed radically from Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight/Mysteries of the Sith (which was the same in Sp as it was in Mp) to Jedi Outcast/Academy. Instead of reducing damage from hits, shields completely absorbed them (improvement in technology?). In MP they may function differently from Sp.

I'm a massive fan of the Republic Commando and Jedi series of games (I'm psycho about it, at least five to eight play-throughs), but I think the shields on Katarn-class armor (and the shields portrayed in the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series) can be chalked up to game mechanics. Clone Commandos appear in several other media (including the novels Republic Commando: Hard Contact, Republic Commando: Triple Zero, and Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader). In all these novels, either no mention is made of shields, or it is obvious that they have none. I believe literary portrayals of Kyle Katarn's exploits also omit the presence of personal shielding.

That last part I'm not sure about. I own the "Jedi Knight" novella, but it's been many years since I read through it (only read it once). I also briefly read Rebel Agent, but not Soldier for the Empire. Some of that info might also be retconned now for all I know. Body encasing personal shields for living soldiers are purely an EU thing anyway, so I guess it depends on how you interpret it there. However I know that the games are not the only source for their existence. The "dangerous radiation" thing I don't think was even mentioned until the prequels brought it up (to explain why if Destroyers could have them, they didn't just put them on soldiers). Explaining it away as cost cutting makes perfect sense to me though.

Canonically, combat-effective personal shielding is rare or non-existent.

[Film canon of course] Except on Destroyer droids, and handheld versions for the primitive Gungans...