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Ok, so Luke can appear to Cade after he's been dead for, I figure, at least 56 years and that is assuming he lived to be 100 years old.

Now I understand Luke is powerful, maybe the most powerful Force user ever, but if he can stick around to talk to and council his great-grandson, who wasn't even born when he died, why the fuck didn't Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin and Qui-Gon stick around for say 5-10 years to teach and train Luke in the ways of the Force and give him relevant info like, oh I don't know, who his mom was so that he didn't waste time looking for her and STILL didn't know her identity 60 years later.

Am I the only one who thinks this is completely fucking stupid?
Could some one please give me a logical reason why 4 of the most powerful Jedi of their day would abandon THE ONLY heir to their legacy and the son and embodiment of the CHOSEN ONE when they could easily help him?

Sidenote: So much for the Chosen One huh? Look at all the balance the Force has now.

Uh.. what?
Tell me you're joking.
Please tell me this is a joke.

havokeff wrote:Now I understand Luke is powerful, maybe the most powerful Force user ever, but if he can stick around to talk to and council his great-grandson, who wasn't even born when he died, why the fuck didn't Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin and Qui-Gon stick around for say 5-10 years to teach and train Luke in the ways of the Force and give him relevant info like, oh I don't know, who his mom was so that he didn't waste time looking for her and STILL didn't know her identity 60 years later.

Because the EU has been written by arse-backwards methodology from the beginning. Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy (in one of the earliest examples of the EU) wrote of Obi-wan's force ghost saying farewell to Luke for good. Kind of a final "Goodbye and good luck Luke, do me proud" thing, and it was right at the start of the first book too. After that point, Luke was the last of the Jedi in every way. As far as I'm concerned that's the way it should have been done.

But then Lucas gave us ROTS, which although a damn good film did have the revelation at the end of Yoda being in contact with Qui-gon. I haven't seen the scene in awhile but I seem to recall the contact had been going on for quite some time.

Regardless, the ability of Force ghosts to linger is shown throughout both canon and EU (I can think of the KOTOR games as immediate examples, though those were Sith ghosts), so it's not like they're doing something really unprecedented here.

Am I the only one who thinks this is completely fucking stupid?
Could some one please give me a logical reason why 4 of the most powerful Jedi of their day would abandon THE ONLY heir to their legacy and the son and embodiment of the CHOSEN ONE when they could easily help him?

It's in the ROTS novelisation. Obi-wan wanted to train the twins straight away, and Yoda overrules him. His fight with Palpatine revealed to him that Jedi practices had fallen stagnant and were now useless against the Sith, who had trained in secret for centuries to get to the point where they could counter the Jedi in every way possible. ROTS showed us that the Jedi were suckerpunched and then curbstomped while on the ground, and a large part of that had to do with their arrogance and preconceptions of the Force and so on.

So he, Yoda that is, basically said it is better for the twins to grow up in a normal life and make the choice to become Jedi rather than have that thrown onto them as part of their upbringing like had been done before. The ROTJ novelisation shows that Luke is quite talented in raw ability and is a quick learner. You're saying why didn't they train him ASAP, but if they did it probably wouldn't do him much good. At least, that's Yoda's take on the matter.

Stofsk wrote:But then Lucas gave us ROTS, which although a damn good film did have the revelation at the end of Yoda being in contact with Qui-gon. I haven't seen the scene in awhile but I seem to recall the contact had been going on for quite some time.

Which raises the question of why he never contacted Obi-Wan or Anakin himself. I really hate that scene.

Regardless, the ability of Force ghosts to linger is shown throughout both canon and EU (I can think of the KOTOR games as immediate examples, though those were Sith ghosts), so it's not like they're doing something really unprecedented here.

KOTOR is probably overrided by RotS, since in KOTOR all Jedi become one with the Force (it's a plot point at the end where Malak uses the Star Forge to suck power out of Jedi spirits by trapping them)

It's in the ROTS novelisation. Obi-wan wanted to train the twins straight away, and Yoda overrules him. His fight with Palpatine revealed to him that Jedi practices had fallen stagnant and were now useless against the Sith, who had trained in secret for centuries to get to the point where they could counter the Jedi in every way possible. ROTS showed us that the Jedi were suckerpunched and then curbstomped while on the ground, and a large part of that had to do with their arrogance and preconceptions of the Force and so on.

So he, Yoda that is, basically said it is better for the twins to grow up in a normal life and make the choice to become Jedi rather than have that thrown onto them as part of their upbringing like had been done before. The ROTJ novelisation shows that Luke is quite talented in raw ability and is a quick learner. You're saying why didn't they train him ASAP, but if they did it probably wouldn't do him much good. At least, that's Yoda's take on the matter.

I believe he's referring to why Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda never appeared to help Luke during the numerous crisis he faced after their final goodbyes.

KOTOR is probably overrided by RotS

How so? In Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, Sidious muses to himself how he now has more than enough time to rediscover the secret of surviving death, known to the ancient Sith, but long forgotten.

The thing that irked me about the whole "moving on" thing, is that they never bothered to reveal Padme's identity to Luke. I guess it would have made little difference to him at the time, but still...

VT-16 wrote:

KOTOR is probably overrided by RotS

How so? In Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, Sidious muses to himself how he now has more than enough time to rediscover the secret of surviving death, known to the ancient Sith, but long forgotten.

I doubt he was referring to KOTOR. The Sith ghost in KOTOR was weak and impotent (hell, you could beat him up!), isolated in his tomb wallowing in self-pity. Palpatine wouldn't want that I'd think.

True enough. The only thing I remember, was that Sith ghosts only kept to one location or stalked an individual. The ancient Jedi could "join the Force", but I can't remember anything similar to that for the ancient Sith.

There are a number of sith ghosts from the Tales of the Jedi comics that stayed around for centuries if not millenia. Usually they did this by binding themselves to some magical artifact, like with Exar Kun.

I have no problem with ROTS claiming Qui-Gon discovered immortality and HttE having Obi-Wan say, that he has to leave. Keep in mind, that at the time of ROTS it was basically a new discovery, so neither Yoda or Qui-Gon might have been aware, that it wouldn't last.

WHAT really irks me is, that the whole point of Luke being a new kind of Jedi (and HttE establishes this by Obi-Wan saying "Not the last of the old Jedi. The FIRST of the NEW) was thrown away with almost every second novel of the Bantam-Era having Luke searching for "old" Jedi-knowledge and at the time of NJO/DN his Jedi-Order is a mirror-image of the Order of the Prequels.

I wouldn't say Luke Skywalker's order is a mirror image of the Prequel Order, there are going to be some similarities since Luke's training still came from Yoda and OBi Wan and they were trained under the old system. But the New Jedi Order didn't even have a council until the Vong War and when it was established the Council immediately began working with the government, rather than trying to keep autonomous as the Old Republic's Jedi had. Luke's Jedi did not consider age much of a barrier to entry, they do not have the same sort of Padawan/Master relationship, and very importantly, the New Jedi Order allows its members to have families. We're starting to see the new order founded in part based on the lineages of some of its earliest members.

I don't have a problem with Luke looking for knowledge of the old Jedi, because even though Obi Wan and Ben wanted Luke to learn differently, they never told him that specifically. They never said, "Hey Luke, y'know the way we were doing things is what fucked us over in the first place. So try to do something different."

Also, I am of the opinion that even if he's using some of the old Jedi methods and knowledge to found the new order, the failure of the Old Order was a lack of adaptation, So far in his tenure Luke has tried his best to do just that (although hack writers have made it more difficult).


Sarcastic Addendum: Besides, everyone knows that the REAL Chosen One is either Quinlan Vos, Boba Fett, or the love child of their descendants. Duh.

Darth Fanboy wrote:But the New Jedi Order didn't even have a council until the Vong War and when it was established the Council immediately began working with the government, rather than trying to keep autonomous as the Old Republic's Jedi had.

Luke dissolved that system after the war, unfortunately

Yes but it did show a level a cooperation that the Old Order was unwilling to accept even in extreme situations such as the Clone Wars.

EDIT:

Typo

But during the Clone Wars, the Jedi did work with the Senate.
In fact it's how they were so swiftly defeated as they became commanders of the Clone army which eventually turned against them.

Cao Cao wrote:But during the Clone Wars, the Jedi did work with the Senate.
In fact it's how they were so swiftly defeated as they became commanders of the Clone army which eventually turned against them.

I don't argue that, but the Jedi always kept their autonomy from the government. Remember the whole mess there was in RoTS when Palpatine appointed Anakin to the Jedi Council. That is what i'm getting at. Luke's new council included the President of the GFFA (not to mention making sure Jedi Knights had representation as well as Masters for some stupid reason.)

I'd like to have Anakin Skywalker's ghost show up and slap a few of thew New Jedi upside the head

i.e Jacen / possibly Darth Kryat

"You twit! She's a SITH! They feed you what you want to hear!"
"Geez, if I'd know this was going to be the outcome, I wouldn't have bothered throwing Palpatine down the pit... yech!"

Actualy I'd like to slap Luke up the head. He had enough clues in the Dark Nest series to put the existence of Jacens child together (as well as Jacens slide towards the Dark side), but compeltly failed to make the leap of logic.

I mean Jacen was willing to commit GENOCIDE to 'protect' his child, he was willing to fuck with the mind of Luke and Mara's Son, to mainuplate countless Jedi, Governments, commit murder against innocents, to do WHATEVER it took to protect his child from a threat that may or may not exist or he may or may not be seeing correctly.

While Jacen clearly was the one doing the bad crap, Luke bears some of the blaim for not keeping an eye on him. Like Yoda and Obi do for not keeping a closer eye on Anikin and putting the peices together fast enough.

Interesting parallel though. Jacen goes to the Darkside becauase he feals he needs order and power to control the Galaxy to protect his daughter. Anikin does the same for Padme (though Jacen in his fucked up mind thinks they are totaly different).

I'm becoming more and more glad I decided to hop the crap out of the SW EU after the Swarm series.

Can someone tell me what Han Solo is doing through all of this? His only daughter is a Joiner, and now his last son is a Sith. Is he even a LITTLE perturbed?

Or is it yet again a case of "Jedi business", and Han obediently waits on the sidelines?

Guh? What happened to Jaina?

Stofsk wrote:Guh? What happened to Jaina?

Uh, something to do with the DarkNest trilogy. All very boring and shitty, Heh.