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Alright, so we are all aware that there are some prime examples of minimalism in the EU. We have the fleet strengths from the Thrawn trilogy, the "Executor almost made the Empire go bankrupt" and the Clone/Droid numbers debacle. However, there are other more lesser known examples of minimalism in the EU. I was recently made aware of an other example from the junior novel Rogue Planet in which Raith Sienar claims that there were twenty million ships "in the known galaxy". So, what more examples of EU minimalism are there?

In Darksaber, a fleet of 1 SSD, 12 ISD's, and 80 VDS's was a threat to the galaxy. I know Thrawn's fleet isn't much bigger, but he's been shown to be capable of defeating an enemy with a 10 to 1 numerical advandage. (Thrawn vs. Trade Federation fleet in Outbound Flight).

In Dark Lord, They describe a display of the galaxy that shows "hundreds of planets" belonging to the seperatists. The display was frozen at the time the temple was invaded in ep. III. Either the republic was much closer to winning than we thought, or this is another instance of a small galaxy.

It could be that the "hundreds" only refered to worlds with strategic or economic importance.

The Katana Fleet. 200 600 meter ships with heavy automation that supposedly could change the galactic balance of power.
The whole X-Wing series of books is minimalist about Capital ship shield strength against fighters. And the number of ships. And Couruscant's defenses. And hyperdrive speeds. And. . . well you get the idea.

Vehrec wrote:The Katana Fleet. 200 600 meter ships with heavy automation that supposedly could change the galactic balance of power.

Already covered in the OP.

X-wings firing lasers with kilojoules of energy, and the equivalent of a small truck moving at automobile speeds being able to take down the shields of an X-wing.

They describe a display of the galaxy that shows "hundreds of planets" belonging to the seperatists.

No, those were just the planets with ongoing battles at the time of Order 66. Quite the opposite of minimalism, if you can remember. "Brushfire Wars"

Vehrec wrote:The Katana Fleet. 200 600 meter ships with heavy automation that supposedly could change the galactic balance of power.

Try the Corellian Trilogy. Four capital ships were crucial there.
Oh, and fifteen ships in the Dark Nest trilogy. Another reason it sucks.

Also, Daala's four Star Destroyers.

Small Fleet engagements during the Wraith Squadron trilogy. Even though Zsinj was a mere warlord and not the Empire, he still controlled a hefty fleet and a significant amount of territory.

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:
Try the Corellian Trilogy. Four capital ships were crucial there.
Oh, and fifteen ships in the Dark Nest trilogy. Another reason it sucks.

Also, Daala's four Star Destroyers.

That's understandable, the Imperial Remnant doesn't have the resources of its former incarnation, they don't have the ability to say, "Fuck it! We have galaxies worth of money", anymore.

Wasn't Daala's "four destroyers" only important because it was a potent, rogue force which could overcome most mid-level planets' defenses?

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Wasn't Daala's "four destroyers" only important because it was a potent, rogue force which could overcome most mid-level planets' defenses?

Nevertheless, the idea that a single, damaged star destroyer could breach Coruscant's defenses and destroy the planet was rather ridiculous. Of course, Daala was never able to execute her plan, but the fact that even she could think it had any chance of succeeding is quite stupid.

I rather like to think that it confirms the theory that she's a goddamned retard. Very aggressive, but dumb as a brick.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I rather like to think that it confirms the theory that she's a goddamned retard. Very aggressive, but dumb as a brick.

I've always thought it was because she was hidden away from normal civilisation before it became as well defended as it was during the height of the New Order.

Lord Pounder wrote:

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I rather like to think that it confirms the theory that she's a goddamned retard. Very aggressive, but dumb as a brick.

I've always thought it was because she was hidden away from normal civilisation before it became as well defended as it was during the height of the New Order.

Yeah....
Have you seen EP-3?
Specifically the fleet of over 5,000 Confederacy ships being beaten by ships of the Republic called in after almost all Coruscants Defence fleet had been sent out to the outer rim?
Before Palaptine massively reinforced Coruscant with defenses? (As well as his "Security" claims being even more enforced after his rise to rulership and him building his Palace on C).


And theres Also the additional example the tiny complement of defensive ships during Ysanne Isard's rule of Coruscant, even if it was meant to be "Light" it was still an order of magnitude (Or two or three) too small by far.
Defense of Coruscant and Golan Space Defense

Wedge's Gamble, 33 wrote:"Despite [Isard] not being from a military background, she has, in no way, allowed the defenses of the Imperial homeworld to slacken. Outermost we have Golan Space Defense stations. They are comparable in power to a Star Destroyer. They are not mobile, so eliminating them from a section of the sky over Coruscant will give us an area in which to operate, but eventually all of them will have to be neutralized."
"In addition to these defense stations, there are approximately seven Victory-class Star Destroyers on station at Coruscant. There are ground-based fighter groups as well as the fighter wings stationed in and around the ships, shipyards, and orbital factories. The orbital mirror stations and low-orbit skyhooks may have also been armed."
Ackbar clasped his hands behind his back. "As formidable as all that is, the primary problem in taking Coruscant is the overlapping defense shields."

Another thing of note: Stackpole never accounted for the forces at Anaxes. The bulk of home sector fleet was based there and no doubt that they also directly contributed to the defense of Coruscant. Should Coruscant be attacked, the forces there would arrive to reinforce their defense. Ackbar sure should know that, especially when Azure command includes Whelm, an Executor class warship.

Another thing in KJA's books is the fact that two Stardestroyers (one doesn't count, since it stays hidden until the attack on the yards) were able to draw away the complete defence force of Mon Calamari.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Another thing of note: Stackpole never accounted for the forces at Anaxes. The bulk of home sector fleet was based there and no doubt that they also directly contributed to the defense of Coruscant. Should Coruscant be attacked, the forces there would arrive to reinforce their defense. Ackbar sure should know that, especially when Azure command includes Whelm, an Executor class warship.

Problem is, we don't know what happened with AzureHammerCommand between ROTJ and X-Wing:RS. For all we know it could have vanished into the Deep Core like so many other fleets.

That would be the in-universe explenation. The OoU would be, that when Stackpole wrote the novel Anaxes, GA Teshik or AzureHammer didn't exist.

Concerning Daala's attack on Coruscant I have little to no problem with that. The Coruscant/Galaxy of ROTS is not the Coruscant/Galaxy of ROTJ is not the Coruscant/Galaxy of DE is not the Coruscant/Galaxy of JAT.
The more I think about it, the less I'm convinced, that KJA is so bad on the scaling side. In Darksaber we have an SSD with thousands of fighters, said SSD is build by a warlord with perhaps a dozen systems under his control, ect.

Thanas wrote:Another thing in KJA's books is the fact that two Stardestroyers (one doesn't count, since it stays hidden until the attack on the yards) were able to draw away the complete defence force of Mon Calamari.

Oh yeah forgot that one. Mon'Cal was defended by a couple of B-Wing squadrons and a handful of tiny capships that were in no way a threat to an ISD.

Frigen pathetic understatement of the year.

At least when the NRDF arrived (and they *needed* Leia to get a frigen distress call out!!!!) they did so in force and Dalla ran for the hills.

DEATH wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I rather like to think that it confirms the theory that she's a goddamned retard. Very aggressive, but dumb as a brick.

I've always thought it was because she was hidden away from normal civilisation before it became as well defended as it was during the height of the New Order.

Yeah....
Have you seen EP-3?
Specifically the fleet of over 5,000 Confederacy ships being beaten by ships of the Republic called in after almost all Coruscants Defence fleet had been sent out to the outer rim?
Before Palaptine massively reinforced Coruscant with defenses? (As well as his "Security" claims being even more enforced after his rise to rulership and him building his Palace on C).


And theres Also the additional example the tiny complement of defensive ships during Ysanne Isard's rule of Coruscant, even if it was meant to be "Light" it was still an order of magnitude (Or two or three) too small by far.
Defense of Coruscant and Golan Space Defense

Wedge's Gamble, 33 wrote:"Despite [Isard] not being from a military background, she has, in no way, allowed the defenses of the Imperial homeworld to slacken. Outermost we have Golan Space Defense stations. They are comparable in power to a Star Destroyer. They are not mobile, so eliminating them from a section of the sky over Coruscant will give us an area in which to operate, but eventually all of them will have to be neutralized."
"In addition to these defense stations, there are approximately seven Victory-class Star Destroyers on station at Coruscant. There are ground-based fighter groups as well as the fighter wings stationed in and around the ships, shipyards, and orbital factories. The orbital mirror stations and low-orbit skyhooks may have also been armed."
Ackbar clasped his hands behind his back. "As formidable as all that is, the primary problem in taking Coruscant is the overlapping defense shields."

This was the same Corucsant that Thrawn was able to lay siege to with a couple of Star Destroyers and a few Katana Dreadnaughts?

Lord Pounder wrote:

DEATH wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote: I've always thought it was because she was hidden away from normal civilisation before it became as well defended as it was during the height of the New Order.

Yeah....
Have you seen EP-3?
Specifically the fleet of over 5,000 Confederacy ships being beaten by ships of the Republic called in after almost all Coruscants Defence fleet had been sent out to the outer rim?
Before Palaptine massively reinforced Coruscant with defenses? (As well as his "Security" claims being even more enforced after his rise to rulership and him building his Palace on C).


And theres Also the additional example the tiny complement of defensive ships during Ysanne Isard's rule of Coruscant, even if it was meant to be "Light" it was still an order of magnitude (Or two or three) too small by far.
Defense of Coruscant and Golan Space Defense

Wedge's Gamble, 33 wrote:"Despite [Isard] not being from a military background, she has, in no way, allowed the defenses of the Imperial homeworld to slacken. Outermost we have Golan Space Defense stations. They are comparable in power to a Star Destroyer. They are not mobile, so eliminating them from a section of the sky over Coruscant will give us an area in which to operate, but eventually all of them will have to be neutralized."
"In addition to these defense stations, there are approximately seven Victory-class Star Destroyers on station at Coruscant. There are ground-based fighter groups as well as the fighter wings stationed in and around the ships, shipyards, and orbital factories. The orbital mirror stations and low-orbit skyhooks may have also been armed."
Ackbar clasped his hands behind his back. "As formidable as all that is, the primary problem in taking Coruscant is the overlapping defense shields."

This was the same Coruscant that Thrawn was able to lay siege to with a couple of Star Destroyers and a few Katana Dreadnaughts?

Er, I haven't read "Dark Force rising" in a looong time, but didn't he lay siege to Coruscant due to simulating the deployment of mines (along with a few real mines) that forced the Rebels to keep the shields raised until they got a Crystal-Grav trap . [Not constant pounding on the shields and/or surface as was the case in EP-3 (During which we don't see the shield in some sources of the battle].

At any rate, if I am remembering it wrong and Thrawn laid Siege to C before leaving the mines or getting driven off by Garm Bel Ibliss and the Golans+Reinforcements with such pitiful forces it's an example of extreme minimalism regardless. (It's from the same book where the Katana fleet can tip the balance of the Galactic civil war at a near stalemate after all)

Darth Garden Gnome wrote: At any rate, if I am remembering it wrong and Thrawn laid Siege to C before leaving the mines or getting driven off by Garm Bel Ibliss and the Golans+Reinforcements with such pitiful forces it's an example of extreme minimalism regardless. (It's from the same book where the Katana fleet can tip the balance of the Galactic civil war at a near stalemate after all)

Unless I'm mistaken, Thrawns raid on Courscant was with:

14+ Interdictor Cruisers.
6 ISD's.
2 VSD's.
A great number of Dreadnaughts.
A great number of other support craft.

And that was simply an extended hit and fade. Thrawn couldn't attack Courscant. He fought with a pair of Golan III battlestations and the home fleet for a short time, until the home fleet dropped down into range of the heavy surface to space defenses and Thrawn didn't follow.

Then he launched the asteriods and ran before the vastly superior sector fleet arrived.

FTeik wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Another thing of note: Stackpole never accounted for the forces at Anaxes. The bulk of home sector fleet was based there and no doubt that they also directly contributed to the defense of Coruscant. Should Coruscant be attacked, the forces there would arrive to reinforce their defense. Ackbar sure should know that, especially when Azure command includes Whelm, an Executor class warship.

Problem is, we don't know what happened with AzureHammerCommand between ROTJ and X-Wing:RS. For all we know it could have vanished into the Deep Core like so many other fleets.

That would be the in-universe explenation. The OoU would be, that when Stackpole wrote the novel Anaxes, GA Teshik or AzureHammer didn't exist.

Concerning Daala's attack on Coruscant I have little to no problem with that. The Coruscant/Galaxy of ROTS is not the Coruscant/Galaxy of ROTJ is not the Coruscant/Galaxy of DE is not the Coruscant/Galaxy of JAT.
The more I think about it, the less I'm convinced, that KJA is so bad on the scaling side. In Darksaber we have an SSD with thousands of fighters, said SSD is build by a warlord with perhaps a dozen systems under his control, ect.

What you say is possibly true, which makes me wonder why the Alliance never picked up that. It is said later that Azure command surrendered after the fall of Coruscant.

But for Azure command to be depleted like is highly unusual.

Doesn't Admiral Wermis just hand over the planet and the Command is nowhere mentioned?