The Perennial Question: When did Lucas "know"?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-09-30 10:48pm

Yep, I know, that question.

When did Lucas "know" that Vader = Anakin = Luke's Father?

When did Lucas "know" that Luke & Leia were twins?

Not the retcon revisionist ("everything was mapped out in advance/always intended") answer, but when did he first show some indication that that is what he intended.

Non-SOD of course.

Anybody know? I'm debating someone, of course, and I was just curious of any good insights. They apparently don't trust just early scripts (because Lucas would have left "big secrets" out of them on purpose), they want quotes from Kurtz or the annotated screenplays or something (if they exist).

Any help? And serious apologies if this was answered somewhere and I was just too blind to see it... Thanks in advance!

Vehrec · Post by **Vehrec** » 2006-09-30 11:08pm

My guess would be sometime in the draft of 'Empire'. But thats a guess, and nothing more.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2006-09-30 11:17pm

Certainly not when writing the early drafts, since most of them contain information that would make a blood relation between Luke and Vader impossible (although I suppose Luke could've been Vader's father in the first draft.) He may have had it in mind while shooting ANH, since there are a couple of hints there (Ben's hesitation about telling Luke about his father, Owen's "That's what I'm afraid of" line.)

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » 2006-09-30 11:37pm

The Vader = Luke's father thing, i think he knew it the whole time. Remeber the scene on Tatooine when Luke says he wants to leave, and his foster father says no. Luke's foster mother then says that "He's got too much of his father in him." to which his foster father replies "That's what i'm afraid off." The way he says it and the way he looks while doing it just screams "he knew about the whole thing". Well, at least to me it does.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2006-10-01 12:17am

Given that SW has a purposeful use of the Campbellian monomyth, Luke confronting his father had to be in there somewhere. As for Vader being Luke's father, I doubt it was before Empire. Owen's comment is perfectly understandable even if Aniken ≠ Vader; after all, at this point, Vader killed Aniken. That's reason enough not to want Luke to follow Aniken -- never mind turning to the Dark Side, adventuring could make the boy catch a serious case of death.

In Lucas's recollection (a "making of..." attached to the network premere of Jedi, once upon a time, before the Special Editions), as late as Jedi, he was still wondering whether or not to give truth to Vader's statement that Luke was his son, but decided that was the story. This strongly suggests that Vader's statement was a last minute thing forced by the evolving flow of the storyline. (Having written some yarns for fun, I know how powerful the flow of the story can be.)

As for the twin thing, that certainly wasn't before Jedi. Remember, Leia kissed Luke in Empire. Like, ew...

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2006-10-01 02:46am

l33telboi wrote:The Vader = Luke's father thing, i think he knew it the whole time. Remeber the scene on Tatooine when Luke says he wants to leave, and his foster father says no. Luke's foster mother then says that "He's got too much of his father in him." to which his foster father replies "That's what i'm afraid off." The way he says it and the way he looks while doing it just screams "he knew about the whole thing". Well, at least to me it does.

Its Owen and Beru, Lukes Uncle and Aunt

but anyways its revealed later by Obi Wan himself that the reason Owen says what he says is because hes afraid that he'll follow ol' Obiwan on some damn fool idealistic crusade

not that hes his father. No one but Yoda, the Emp, Obi Wan or Mass Ameda know that Anakin is Darth Vader.

EDIT: Oh and Wrym they also make out after Luke tells her they're brother and sister. Just watch that sceen. They are very close for a long time after the shot pans out. Sooo... yeah

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2006-10-01 02:56am

From what I've read, TESB was something of a partnership between Lucas and another fellow whose name I cannot now remember. That's part of why it is so different. Lucas didn't like not having total creative freedom, so after the second movie the partnership was dissolved, and Lucas wrote the story for RotJ pretty much on his own. Not long ago I read an interview with this fellow, who spoke about his thoughts on RotJ and their plans before they broke up. I think the article may have been linked in a thread here, but I can't find it now. Anyway, according to what's-his-name, they were planning on four more sequels (and of course three prequels), with Luke's sibling, Yoda's "other" hope, revealing himself as a rogue force-sensitive popping up from time to time to save Luke and teach him a few tricks, but never becoming the main hero. Leia wasn't supposed to be the sibling. When they finished production of TESB, they were still discussing whether or not Vader was lying.

As for Owen's line, I agree with Wyrm: the original intent simply could have been that Luke's adventurous spirit would get himself killed in a vain quest to defeat the Empire, just like his father. Look at Beru's preceding statement. It turns out she didn't know Anakin very well at all except as Vader, yet, if my memory is accurate, she seemed almost admiring in her comparison.

The whole Myth business didn't come about until after Joseph Campbell's interview series and subsequent book, "The Power of Myth." In these interviews, Campbell discussed the need for myth in our culture. He specifically mentioned two attempts at creating a modern mythos, Tolkien's, which he said failed because it was too archaic, and Star Wars. He then laid out how the original trilogy neatly fit into the "hero's path" that he had identified as a nearly universal mythic motif. After that, the "Campbellian monomyth" became part of the Star Wars mythos, but I never heard any such claims in the eighties. Lucas may now say he studied world mythologies to deliberately create a new myth, but he also said he had the whole thing plotted out from the beginning and that he never stated that there were to be a total of nine films, both of which are demonstrably false. Originally, Star Wars was intended to be an homage to the old sci-fi/fantasy serials of Lucas' youth: Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Atlantis, et cetera, nothing more.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-10-01 08:33am

You mean Gary Kurtz, the producer? Didn't he mostly just live off of his claim of "I'm the reason SW used to be good" and whine alot after quitting the series?

Anyway, the only things I've heard of that's mildly believable, was Lucas working on different drafts and almost always having cycles of the core family of the story splitting apart, someone dies or betrays the others, there's one or two fatherfigures involved etc. I think I read about the alternative to what we got in ESB, being Vader not as Luke's father, but having killed this person and wanting to be a father figure to Luke. Wanting have him join as rulers of the empire.

that he never stated that there were to be a total of nine films, both of which are demonstrably false

I don't think he's flat-out denied it, interviews from not long ago seems to suggest he did plan something, or suggest something (which also Mark Hamill commented on, both mostly it was in jest) and that those films might have been more ethereal and not so successful.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-10-01 11:12am

In the early drafts, "Luke"'s father was "The Starkiller" an aged, almost godlike sage (and certainly no villian! he was even still alive while the Death Star battle was going on). But I wonder which was the first script that said "yep, Vader's his dad."

If I get some time I'll read through again some of the ESB scripts online, I was just curious if anyone knew. Thanks for the comments!

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-10-01 11:20am

Remember this little gem?:

1988 Starlog Q&A

STARLOG: Will you return to the Star Wars universe?

LUCAS: Hopefully, I will someday be doing the next three Star Wars, but I'm not sure when. The next three would take place 20 or 30 years before the films they're celebrating today. I'll do the first trilogy first. There are
nine [films] floating around there somewhere. I'll guarantee that the first
three are pretty much organized in my head, but the other three are kind of out there somewhere.

And later in the interview:

STARLOG: Why didn't you give Luke a girl?

LUCAS: You haven't seen the last three yet.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-01 01:16pm

By the time Star Wars was released Lucas had decided that Vader was Luke's dad.
Leia wasn't going to be Luke's sister and Vader's daughter until sometime between post on TESB and the begining of ROTJ.

The second part comes from Kurtz. He was Lucas's producer from American Graphitti through TESB and while you may think he is full of shit, his is the only story that hasn't changed over the years.

If you HAVE to have quotes, I'll look 'em up.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-01 01:18pm

Lord Poe wrote:Remember this little gem?:

1988 Starlog Q&A

STARLOG: Will you return to the Star Wars universe?

LUCAS: Hopefully, I will someday be doing the next three Star Wars, but I'm not sure when. The next three would take place 20 or 30 years before the films they're celebrating today. I'll do the first trilogy first. There are
nine [films] floating around there somewhere. I'll guarantee that the first
three are pretty much organized in my head, but the other three are kind of out there somewhere.
And later in the interview:

STARLOG: Why didn't you give Luke a girl?

LUCAS: You haven't seen the last three yet.

Wow, isn't it nice to think of the "what ifs" and the potential of a nine movie series

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2006-10-01 02:07pm

havokeff wrote:Wow, isn't it nice to think of the "what ifs" and the potential of a nine movie series

I'd say ROTJ effectively killed the viability of a nine-episode series way back in 1983. Quite frankly, I think that was George's intent when he ended it the way he did.

It amazes me that people think Kurtz is a liar yet they believe Lucas...

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-10-01 02:41pm

Galvatron wrote:
havokeff wrote:Wow, isn't it nice to think of the "what ifs" and the potential of a nine movie series
I'd say ROTJ effectively killed the viability of a nine-episode series way back in 1983. Quite frankly, I think that was George's intent when he ended it the way he did.

I have an interview buried somewhere with Lucas from 1983-84 where he was considering selling SW to 20th Century Fox so he'd be done with it for good.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2006-10-01 02:46pm

I wish he had.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2006-10-01 05:55pm

Kurgan wrote:In the early drafts, "Luke"'s father was "The Starkiller" an aged, almost godlike sage (and certainly no villian! he was even still alive while the Death Star battle was going on). But I wonder which was the first script that said "yep, Vader's his dad."

If I get some time I'll read through again some of the ESB scripts online, I was just curious if anyone knew. Thanks for the comments!

There was no ESB script that had Vader as Luke's father. The line that David Prowse delivered during the filming was "Obi-Wan killed your father" (although they let Mark Hamill know what the real line that James Earl Jones would overdub with was so that he'd know what he was really reacting to.)

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-10-01 06:53pm

Galvatron wrote:
havokeff wrote:Wow, isn't it nice to think of the "what ifs" and the potential of a nine movie series
I'd say ROTJ effectively killed the viability of a nine-episode series way back in 1983. Quite frankly, I think that was George's intent when he ended it the way he did.

It amazes me that people think Kurtz is a liar yet they believe Lucas...

Stephen Haffner, Leigh Brackett's publisher, has been debunking this bullshit (as well as the idea that Brackett wrote The Empire Strikes Back) for years.

http://www.mailarchive.ca/lists/alt.fan ... /1671.html

FWIW, I recently pulled out Alan Arnold's pbo MAKING OF TESB and right there (circa 1979), Lucas says that he originally planned six films--two trilogies. He goes on to say that he added an additional trilogy after the success of STAR WARS.

So it goes.

Stephen Haffner

Even Gary Kurtz admits that the NINE MOVIES! story was bullshit.

May 24, 2005, 8:45AM

Is Lucas secretly planning another Star Wars trilogy?
By LISA ROSE
Newhouse News Service

Call them the Phantom Movies.

During the pre-release hullabaloo for The Empire Strikes Back in 1980, George Lucas suggested that the Luke Skywalker saga would not be complete after three films, or even six films. He spoke of intentions to make Star Wars a nine-installment franchise.

It was widely reported in print throughout the 1980s that he would create two follow-up trilogies, one going back in time to explore Darth Vader's roots and another turning the clock ahead to revisit the further adventures of his heroic son Luke Skywalker.

Yet it looks like that third set of films has vanished from the radar like a starship in hyperdrive.

According to Lucas, the new Jedi epic Revenge of the Sith is the swan song for the series. He believes the third prequel, which follows Anakin Skywalker's devolution into Darth Vader, provides the closure fans seek.

"The (series) starts with Darth Vader as a young lad and ends with him dying so I don't know where else I can take it," says Lucas. "It's what I wanted it to be."

The director denies ever stating that he'd make Episodes VII through IX, blaming the media for reporting rumors as fact in the early days of Star Wars.

Speaking to journalists earlier this month at his Skywalker Ranch headquarters in Marin County, Calif., Lucas said the hype was "created by you guys, not by me."

Technically, he never promised nine movies, but the news stories of Luke redux weren't pure fiction.

"We made an announcement to the press, 'There's enough material for three trilogies,'" says Gary Kurtz, producer of Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. "It wasn't that nine films were going to be made. It was to give you an idea of how much material was there."

Before Lucas wrote the script for 1977's Star Wars, he put together a novel-length treatment tracing the intergalactic exploits of Skywalker and son. In the blueprint, the plot spanned beyond Luke's young-adult years to portray him as an elder Jedi.

"He went on to become the master and pass on his training to someone else," Kurtz says, via phone from the U.K. office of his production company, Bella Jazz.

Kurtz adds that at one point, there was even talk of expanding the chronicle to 12 chapters.

"There were a lot of things bandied about. There were people who wanted to do novels, tangential stories that have nothing to do with the main story of the films. Every one of those could be turned into a film. There was an idea about using R2-D2 and C-3PO in a feature, or Han Solo's adventures. I suppose you could invent things forever, but I don't think anything concrete was too seriously considered."

According to Kurtz, the possibility of a third trilogy diminished when Lucas veered from his treatment to create Return of the Jedi. The original tale he mapped out didn't feature Ewoks or a second Death Star, and it culminated with the death of Han Solo. Princess Leia parts ways with Luke to lead those who survived her home planet's destruction.

The most critical change, however, was incorporating what would have been the climax of Episode IX, a showdown between Luke and Emperor Palpatine.

"The idea was that the Emperor would be hinted at and maybe seen occasionally but there wouldn't be a final confrontation with him until the ninth story," says Kurtz, who ended his association with Lucas after Empire, partially because he was displeased with the aforementioned revisions. Kurtz currently has three indie projects in the works, including 5-25-77, a comedy about a teenager's failed attempts to see Star Wars on opening day.

In Lucas' world, the Star Wars circle is complete. He plans to lower his directorial profile and work on smaller, more personal pictures, he says.

"I would lay money down that his heirs 20 years from now decide to continue the saga," says Anthony C. Ferrante, editor in chief of Cinescape, a genre-oriented movie magazine. "You can never say never. For the longest time I thought, 'No, he'll never do more Star Wars movies after Jedi. It's the '90s, he's never gonna get around to it.' But he did."

The idea of Vader being Luke's father doesn't appear in any drafts of the script, but that's not really proof of when Lucas thought of it, since is was meant to be a surprise. I think it was mean to be hinted at because so much in Star Wars is based on The Searchers, where it's hinted that Ethan Edwards is Martin Pauley's father, but left unresolved along with whether or not Ethan and not his brother is the father of Debbie (it's obvious Ethan had an affair with her mother before going off to war shortly before Debbie was born). Lucas just went all operatic in TESB to make it obvious and to add the biggest plot twist since Wagner's Ring series.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2006-10-01 07:19pm

Elfy, the nine-part saga "rumor" came directly from Lucas' mouth. It wasn't fan-speculation or media-spin. That he also made contradictory statements in other interviews only reinforces my opinion that he's always been full of shit.

Click here for more...

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-10-01 08:56pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Kurgan wrote:In the early drafts, "Luke"'s father was "The Starkiller" an aged, almost godlike sage (and certainly no villian! he was even still alive while the Death Star battle was going on). But I wonder which was the first script that said "yep, Vader's his dad."

If I get some time I'll read through again some of the ESB scripts online, I was just curious if anyone knew. Thanks for the comments!
There was no ESB script that had Vader as Luke's father. The line that David Prowse delivered during the filming was "Obi-Wan killed your father" (although they let Mark Hamill know what the real line that James Earl Jones would overdub with was so that he'd know what he was really reacting to.)

That's right, I forgot about that. However what about the novelisation? I thought it was released before the movie, so it would surely reflect what we saw onscreen, and was based on the screenplay. Was that really the first time we heard the "secret"?

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2006-10-01 10:16pm

The novelization may have been released before the movie went to theatres, but that doesn't mean it was released before the actual filming finished. Post production on a movie like that takes a long time.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2006-10-01 11:25pm

Anyway, getting back to the OP, here's a wiki entry about "Lucas bashing" that should provide plenty of examples, quotes and citations for you.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2006-10-02 12:34pm

Tychu wrote:EDIT: Oh and Wrym they also make out after Luke tells her they're brother and sister. Just watch that sceen. They are very close for a long time after the shot pans out. Sooo... yeah

I watched the scene. Luke kissed Leia on the cheek in that one. In Empire, they liplocked. Very big diff.

(And that's Wyrm. Get my name right; it's on every freakin' post, fer cryin' out loud!

)

Johonebesus wrote:The whole Myth business didn't come about until after Joseph Campbell's interview series and subsequent book, "The Power of Myth." In these interviews, Campbell discussed the need for myth in our culture. He specifically mentioned two attempts at creating a modern mythos, Tolkien's, which he said failed because it was too archaic, and Star Wars. He then laid out how the original trilogy neatly fit into the "hero's path" that he had identified as a nearly universal mythic motif. After that, the "Campbellian monomyth" became part of the Star Wars mythos, but I never heard any such claims in the eighties. Lucas may now say he studied world mythologies to deliberately create a new myth, but he also said he had the whole thing plotted out from the beginning and that he never stated that there were to be a total of nine films, both of which are demonstrably false. Originally, Star Wars was intended to be an homage to the old sci-fi/fantasy serials of Lucas' youth: Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Atlantis, et cetera, nothing more.

The Hero with a Thousand Faces, where Joseph Campbell introduced the concept of the monomyth, came out in 1949. "The Power of Myth" interview series, among other things, draws heavily from Hero and puts the monomyth into context with modern myths like SW and Tolkien. I may have been wrong about the purposefulness of the monomyth in SW, but the monomyth, as a concept, definitely predates SW, not the other way around.

Also, the point of the Campbellian monomyth is that it reappears in different surface forms across much of global mythology, and if Lucas didn't unconsciously invoke it in ANH, the film might never have been as popular as it was.

Finally, Lucas did not say that he wrote the first drafts after he read Hero, rather he said that he read Hero and noticed that his first drafts of SW (which were originally written in homage to sci-fi/fantasy of his youth) were eerily similar to the monomyth. I admit, though, that I might be giving Lucas too much credit here.

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2006-10-02 04:12pm

I didn't say that Campbell's theories came after Star Wars. I said that the first time I ever heard of the movies being interpreted in light of Campbell's theories was in "The Power of Myth." In fact, that's the point. If Lucas studied Campbell and world mythologies while writing star Wars in a deliberate attempt to create a modern myth with traditional archetypes, why didn't he mention it before Campbell pointed it out? It wasn't until the nineties that the Monomyth business became part of the Star Wars mythos (and by mythos I mean the lore surrounding the creation and execution of the movies, not the stories themselves).

I agree that Star Wars draws upon nearly universal archetypes and can quite neatly fit into Campbell's Monomyth interpretation. However, I am fairly certain that this is accidental. No mention of any mythological inspiration for Star Wars was made until Campbell's talks with Moyers. After that, suddenly Lucas made a big deal about the Monomyth. Recently he has stated that he studied mythologies while writing Star Wars and that he intended to create a modern mythology. Given other examples of Lucas exaggerating or outright lying about the origin and early plans of Star Wars, I am rather doubtful that mythological connections occurred to him at all prior to "The Power of Myth."

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-10-02 11:26pm

That's a fascinating possibility, Johonebesus. It's entirely possible that Lucas only made up the stuff much later, circa The Power of Myth being done.

If it were so, from a literary point of view, it makes the convergent, coincidental similarity of two completely disparate sources (the traditional monomyth and the space opera of a late seventies director) equally interesting, does it not?

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-10-03 12:22am

Johonebesus wrote:I didn't say that Campbell's theories came after Star Wars. I said that the first time I ever heard of the movies being interpreted in light of Campbell's theories was in "The Power of Myth." In fact, that's the point. If Lucas studied Campbell and world mythologies while writing star Wars in a deliberate attempt to create a modern myth with traditional archetypes, why didn't he mention it before Campbell pointed it out? It wasn't until the nineties that the Monomyth business became part of the Star Wars mythos (and by mythos I mean the lore surrounding the creation and execution of the movies, not the stories themselves).

Read the reviews of the first two Star Wars movies back when they were released. Everyone caught on that Lucas was mining ancient myths for characters, stories and other ideas. Campbell was huge on college campuses during the 1960s when Lucas was studying anthropology (before he got into making movies).

I agree that Star Wars draws upon nearly universal archetypes and can quite neatly fit into Campbell's Monomyth interpretation. However, I am fairly certain that this is accidental. No mention of any mythological inspiration for Star Wars was made until Campbell's talks with Moyers.

See above.

After that, suddenly Lucas made a big deal about the Monomyth. Recently he has stated that he studied mythologies while writing Star Wars and that he intended to create a modern mythology.

Puh-leeze! Every moviemaker during that time period was trying to find a replacement for the Western (American Mythology), which had fizzled out by the late 1960s/early 70s. He also wasn't the only one digging through myths, legends and comparative religion for story ideas to be modernized for film. His friend and mentor Francis Coppola sifted through Greek and Roman myths for The Godfather, which was essentially the House of Atreus dressed up as a gangster movie. Coppola didn't study anthropology or comaprative religion as far as I know, yet he did what Lucas did for Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

Given other examples of Lucas exaggerating or outright lying about the origin and early plans of Star Wars,

Evidence?

I am rather doubtful that mythological connections occurred to him at all prior to "The Power of Myth."

Just because you didn't read Joseph Campbell before Star Wars doesn't mean Lucas didn't.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

The Perennial Question: When did Lucas "know"?

The Perennial Question: When did Lucas "know"?

Re: The Perennial Question: When did Lucas "know"?

Re: The Perennial Question: When did Lucas "know"?