StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Do any of you think that Anakin Skywalker throughout Attack of the Clones and The Revenge of the Sith to be quite a weak and pitiful character? But unlike many or most weak and pitiful characters, he garners very little sympathy due to his bouts of brutality and finding a easy "solution" to problems by using violence.

And I found Anakin's love for Padme to be overtly possessive and very, very selfish. He fell for the blatantly evil Palpatine a little too easily and he could not tolerate having his ego crushed by the Jedi Order (which led him to killing nearly all of them for just slighting him). Why is he such an obvious arsehole before officially falling to the Dark Side?

But of course I'm talking more about Anakin Skywalker, rather than his later incarnation, Lord Vader. You can't really label Lord Vader as a pathetic monster, since he is far too remote and abstract as a character, what with him being as faceless as his Stormtrooper minions.

You cannot see person's failings, weaknesses and inadequacies in a skull mask.

He is quite unbalanced, yes.

Anakin is by no means a paragon of virtue, but I've never really regarded him as a particularly bad person, at least not until his fall to the Dark Side (which ventures into rather more complex issues). Though being undeniably arrogant, the EU (both numerous CW era books and the CW cartoons), along with his interaction with Obi-Wan in AOTC and the beginning of ROTS indicate that he was a decent, caring individual who forged fast friendships, geniunely cared for the weak and downtrodden, and risked his life on numerous occasions to defend both. His relationship with Padme is rather more questionable, and he was quite possessive of her, but he also quite obviously cared about her deeply. After all, his fall was due in no small part to his desire to save her life, even at the cost of his status and reputation.

Though Anakin is certainly responsible for those he killed during his transformation into Vader, I really don't think that can be fully blamed on him either. Palpatine positioned himself as Anakin's mentor and father figure from a very early, impressionable age, and by the time of ROTS, even without his Sith abilities, he would have exerted considerable influence over his 'pupil'. It was all too easy for him to exaggerate Anakin's natural weaknesses and emotions well beyond the point they could be twisted normally.

Anakin Skywalker did indeed have numerous serious personality defects; he was arrogant to a fault, extremely possessive, prone to violent outbursts when he percieved the ones he loved being threatened, and yes, even a bit whiny. Nevertheless, I do believe that he had numerous positive traits as well, and had it not been for Palpatine's corrupting influence, he would have remained a decent Jedi Knight.

He went from turning on Palps and reporting him because he found out he was a Sith, to suddenly Submitting to him as loyal slave to killing childern in less then two hours...

Yeah.. I'd say Psyco.

Crossroads Inc. wrote:He went from turning on Palps and reporting him because he found out he was a Sith, to suddenly Submitting to him as loyal slave to killing childern in less then two hours...

Yeah.. I'd say Psyco.

If I had been in Anakin's position, and my girlfriend had the role of Padme I would have done the exact same thing. If i'm convinced she's in danger I'm not going to risk my one chance of saving her because Mace Windu fears he'll get away with it at trial. It's not an entirely rational viewpoint, but love isn't an entirely rational thing.

This isn't about love (well maybe it is) but this is a guy who goes from kind messed up, to KILLING CHILDERN! Look, I don't care how much you love someone, there is a certain line where even given the chance of saving one person, you have to say "Is it worth it"

Ani went from wanting to save one life, to being responsable for the deaths of thousands. In the blink of an eye, he went from being not nice, to out and out evil, and all in the name of 'love'. No I don't know about you, but i'd call that a tad unbalanced.

Plus, this is less like someone saying "Hey, I can save your wife if you take this melon baller and scoop me up a big bowl of baby brains" and more like someone saying "I once heard about this story about this dude who was supposidly able to magically not die, I heard. If you kill everyone you love and hold dear, except that chick, and a bunch of other people you never knew, and help me kill a lot of people, and become my leatherbound bitch, I think maybe some day you'll learn that magic trick too, maybe."

Anakin, as he was portrayed, was an egotistical psychopath with such a tenuous grip on reality I bet you could have told him that Gungan Blood cures acne and he would have gone out to murder JarJar on the spot. His anger wasn't even well supported by the way his character developed, he just looked like a nutter from the get-go who had a few bad experiences. Obi-Wan, who had to deal with his grief over losing a master and his friend/apprentice, seemed to have earned a lot more tragic figure status than Anakin did. Yeah, his mom got cut up by sandpeople, and he never knew his dad. Luke never knew either parent, until he found out his dad was the biggest douche in the Universe (and that his grandpa was quite possibly a bigger douche than that), and his adoptive parents got burned alive, from the looks of it. That Anakin flopped over into the darkside in the middle of a hissyfit is evidence that he's uniquely unsuited for Jedi status.

Really, what did it for me was how moronic his choice was. Mace Windu, Master Yoda, Obi-Wan and the rest of the crazyass Jedi council is going to be able to do a lot more to heal his wife than some evil Sithlord who has orchestrated a massive conspiracy to undermine a galactic civilization. And instead of alerting them, he does nothing. And then, later, he whacks Mace. What the hell? Oh yeah, and kills a lot of Jedi. And kids. And random people. And I bet he stabbed a few puppies on the way. And even more things as Vader himself.

It took the character of Vader from being a good and mighty man who slipped under the spell of a vicious, corruptive evil--a real villian--and made him into an old man who just never got over himself and his whiny, teenage angst. He seemed so eager to accept any line of bullshit, even from an admitted Sith, that helped make him feel better as this poor, misunderstood genius who only wanted to help people--but that those mean oldfashioned Jedi didn't trust him.

I've voted for number two.

Mad props to Covenant for putting into words what I meant far better than I.

This reminds me of an Auschwitz documentary I once saw, where the children of camp commanders and guards only had nice things to say about their father. They were so kind and gentle and good-humored and dressed up as Santa at Christmas and all that lovey-dovey shit, and then they'd return to their jobs and send tens of thousands to their deaths: men, women and children. Seemed unbelievable at the time, but that's how it was.

I doubt Anakin managed the same amount of people in his few hours as Ani-Vader, but there is a small comparison available. He also had the problem of Force-visions that he had experienced about his mother, and failing to heed them and save her, he now faced a similar dilemma with his wife.

There's also a slight chance that fighting in a war for nearly three years straight just might have had a negative impact on his mental health.

I refuse to participate in such a black/white poll.

Now then,

Is he "pathetic" or "weak" or "pitiful"?

I think he's a very troubled young man in AotC. He's developed an altogether unjustified infatuation with Padme Amidala, whom he only knew for a few days over a decade ago. I'd say that's pretty pathetic.

However, he's not weak. He knows what he wants and he goes for it, and he doesn't give a fuck about the consequences. He made his intentions clear to Padme from the start, and didn't let up. He's also unquestionably a brave fighter with little fear- to the point of being reckless, to be sure, but still, I think that's something in his favour. He's the same in RotS, though he's less whiny and somewhat more mature (his apology to Obi-Wan, specifically) though he's obviously still given to fits of rage.

You could say in RotS he was "weak" in a sense, given him succumbing to the Dark Side because he couldn't bear the thought of losing Padme.

Is he pitiful? I don't know- I mean, I pity him, given his upbringing- raised as a slave, then taken away to a monastic order that frowns on attachments, he witnessed the death of his mother because he ignored the dreams of her pain.

Is he a "monster"? In AotC, no. In RotS, he definitely becomes one, because of the effect his mother's death had on him.

If I had been in Anakin's position, and my girlfriend had the role of Padme I would have done the exact same thing. If i'm convinced she's in danger I'm not going to risk my one chance of saving her because Mace Windu fears he'll get away with it at trial. It's not an entirely rational viewpoint, but love isn't an entirely rational thing.

Bullshit. Helping Palpatine destroy the Jedi was not the only option. If he cared about Padme, Anakin could have gone to the Jedi, told them what he and her had done, asked for their help and took the consequences for violating the Order's rules. Do you perhaps think the Jedi wouldn't help her all they could, and may possibly know a way to help her? He didn't care about Padme or the babies, but the idea that he was the one saving them, because he's the Chosen One. Also, he accused her of betrayal and strangled her half to death, when he easily should have been able to sense that she was telling the truth. It was all about how he's so great and she betrayed him, like how the Jedi betrayed him by standing between him and the power he considered his right.

All this talk of "If I was in his shoes..." is pointless, as Anakin had been manipulated for something like 12 years by Palpatine, getting what amounted to an amoral influence that the Jedi couldn't counter, let alone know about, and nothing's going to replicate that in any hypothetical shoe-swapping-scenario.

I see Anakin like a sort-of Macbeth (the two characters are very similar): a character who spiralled down into ruin due to an influential and charismatic personality who didn't have his best interests at heart. EDIT: But regardless of the influences, Anakin was the one who doomed himself - like Macbeth.

Covenant wrote: Really, what did it for me was how moronic his choice was. Mace Windu, Master Yoda, Obi-Wan and the rest of the crazyass Jedi council is going to be able to do a lot more to heal his wife than some evil Sithlord who has orchestrated a massive conspiracy to undermine a galactic civilization.

Ahmm, you have seen ROTS?

The movie where Anakin asks for Yoda's help and the green muppet tells him to "cheer for those, who become one with the Force"?

And the more I think about it, the more I'm sure, that many of Anakin's character-flaws were increased by the way he was raised by the Jedi.

It has been talked about Anakin's arrogance - isn't arrogance of the Jedi (all of them) a main point of concern already in AotC? So much, that Yoda discusses it with Mace and Obi-Wan? How is the willingness of the Jedi in ROTS to put themself above the law and the government even before they know, that Palpatine is a Sith NOT a sign, that they consider themself to be above all rules?

Or why should Anakin have faith in democracy or the Republic or take his wife - who is a politician - seriously, if Obi-Wan tells him "she is a politican, don't trust her" or "according to my experience politicans are only interested in satisfying those, who finance their voting-campaigns"?

The movie where Anakin asks for Yoda's help and the green muppet tells him to "cheer for those, who become one with the Force"?

Have you considered that maybe Yoda was responding to what Anakin told him? Maybe the Jedi don't poke around inside other people's minds, so he only had his words to go by. He might have assumed Anakin was seeing his mother dying or saw the death of someone who he couldn't help, and wanted him not to blame himself. He was mistaken, but hardly malicious or callous.

And the more I think about it, the more I'm sure, that many of Anakin's character-flaws were increased by the way he was raised by the Jedi.

So, how does living in a community of altruists who revere humility, self-denial and the rejection of personal desires make a person grow up to be arrogant, self-centered, violent and power-hungry? In RotS, everything he did was about his wishes or his interests. He didn't give a damn about the galaxy, the Republic, the Jedi or even Padme. Everything existed to be a backdrop for the story of how great the Chosen One is. Whenever anyone denied him, he attacked them. The Jedi wouldn't make him a Master or teach him something he wanted to know, so they had to pay. Padme betrayed him, so she had to pay.

It has been talked about Anakin's arrogance - isn't arrogance of the Jedi (all of them) a main point of concern already in AotC? So much, that Yoda discusses it with Mace and Obi-Wan? How is the willingness of the Jedi in ROTS to put themself above the law and the government even before they know, that Palpatine is a Sith NOT a sign, that they consider themself to be above all rules?

For all the arrogance the Jedi may have exhibited, it must be said that they weren't the ones manipulating the Senate and accumulating power, or starting a galactic war in order to gain absolute power. I see no evidence of the Jedi trying to place themselves above the law, though I see plenty of evidence of Palpatine trying to do just that.

Or why should Anakin have faith in democracy or the Republic or take his wife - who is a politician - seriously, if Obi-Wan tells him "she is a politican, don't trust her" or "according to my experience politicans are only interested in satisfying those, who finance their voting-campaigns"?

I don't think that it's about having faith in such a system as accepting that it's better than the alternatives. I think the simple fact that they are cynical about politicians' motives indicates that they don't blindly defend the Republic without some thought to what it entails. I imagine the Jedi keep themselves aloof from politics because of their powers, which represent a great temptation to use to remake the Republic to suit their ends. Because they'd rather leave normal people to solve their own problems, they stay away from all of that. Of course, this had the unexpected side effect of allowing Palpatine to operate unopposed for a long time, but it wasn't a case of the Jedi being callous or hurtful.

Have you considered that maybe Yoda was responding to what Anakin told him? Maybe the Jedi don't poke around inside other people's minds, so he only had his words to go by. He might have assumed Anakin was seeing his mother dying or saw the death of someone who he couldn't help, and wanted him not to blame himself. He was mistaken, but hardly malicious or callous.

Jedi doctrine involved self-removal from personal attachment, and Anakin's relationship with Padme directly flys in the face of that. He expressed the opinion, twice, that the Jedi would have him thrown out of the Order if they ever found out about the marriage, and I don't see any reason to doubt him. Even if Yoda knew what Anakin was really talking about, I think there's a very good possibility he would have felt bound by the laws of the Order to simply turn Anakin out; Mace would have jumped at the chance. And even if they didn't, Anakin had a premonition of Padme's "death"; the Jedi on the council may have regarded the event as the "will of the Force" and refused to help, assuming they could at all. It wouldn't have been the first time they did something stupid because of visions and prophesies.

For all the arrogance the Jedi may have exhibited, it must be said that they weren't the ones manipulating the Senate and accumulating power, or starting a galactic war in order to gain absolute power. I see no evidence of the Jedi trying to place themselves above the law, though I see plenty of evidence of Palpatine trying to do just that.

They were willing to forcefully remove the lawfully elected head of the Republic without approaching any of the other levels of the government, and most likely install themselves as the rulers of the body, if only temporarily. Though their motives were justified, their willingness to do this without taking into account Republican law in any way demonstrates that they truly believed that they were superior, by judgement or right, to the entire establishment.

Quite simply, the Jedi's thousand-year 'isolation' from the rest of the galaxy made them arrogant and zealotous; even Yoda recognizes this in AOTC. They have little regard for the rules of the Republic when they interfere with their own objectives (as shown by the events of ROTS, and the view that the Jedi served not the Republic, but civilization itself, a standpoint held by Mace Windu and more likely than not numerous other members of the Order), and they actually believed that utterly suppressing the basic human impulse to love could be accomplished through strict adherence to doctrine. Both of these corrosive tendancies, especially the latter, contributed to Anakin's downfall.

Noble Ire wrote:Anakin is by no means a paragon of virtue, but I've never really regarded him as a particularly bad person, at least not until his fall to the Dark Side (which ventures into rather more complex issues). Though being undeniably arrogant, the EU (both numerous CW era books and the CW cartoons), along with his interaction with Obi-Wan in AOTC and the beginning of ROTS indicate that he was a decent, caring individual who forged fast friendships, geniunely cared for the weak and downtrodden, and risked his life on numerous occasions to defend both.

It seems to me that he posses all of these traits while he is off and away doing his Jedi duty alongside his former Master. When he is away from Padme, he behaves very much like a Jedi should, and when he does not, it is when he is thinking about Padme. Look at his behaviour in the beginning of AotC, he tells Padme he will find out who is behind the assasination attempts, disregarding his Master and leading to a public argument between the two.

And when he has the choice of Windu or Palpatine, he exclaims, "I need him!" for he can save Padme.

This is black and white; or rather Dark and Light. Padme expunges his Jedi qualities and makes him do irrational, irresponsible, un-Jedi like things. Although he is neither 'weak' nor 'pitiful', he is rather pathetic when it comes to mainting discipline.

Jedi doctrine involved self-removal from personal attachment, and Anakin's relationship with Padme directly flys in the face of that. He expressed the opinion, twice, that the Jedi would have him thrown out of the Order if they ever found out about the marriage, and I don't see any reason to doubt him.

Oh no, he might actually suffer some sort of consequences for breaking the rules. So what? If he cared about Padme, he'd suck it up and take his lumps, because saving her is more important than being the Chosen One. But we know that's not what happened.

Even if Yoda knew what Anakin was really talking about, I think there's a very good possibility he would have felt bound by the laws of the Order to simply turn Anakin out; Mace would have jumped at the chance.

Again, so what? Those are the consequences of having broken the rules of the Order. I think the Jedi would still have tried to help Padme and the children out, premonition or no premonition. I doubt very much that they are so cold as to let her die because of Anakin's wrongdoing?

And even if they didn't, Anakin had a premonition of Padme's "death"; the Jedi on the council may have regarded the event as the "will of the Force" and refused to help, assuming they could at all. It wouldn't have been the first time they did something stupid because of visions and prophesies.

Somehow, I doubt the Jedi shrug their shoulders and do nothing whenever someone waves a premonition in their faces. Seeing something bad coming means you can do something about it because it hasn't happened yet. I bet they saw a vision of the Sith coming every other time they dealt with them in the past, and didn't say "oh well, destiny." No, they grabbed the sabres and went after them.

They were willing to forcefully remove the lawfully elected head of the Republic without approaching any of the other levels of the government, and most likely install themselves as the rulers of the body, if only temporarily. Though their motives were justified, their willingness to do this without taking into account Republican law in any way demonstrates that they truly believed that they were superior, by judgement or right, to the entire establishment.

Sadly, this is all true. However, I don't think there was anything else that reasonably could be done about the problem. Neither the Senate nor the judiciary could be trusted to do anything about Palpatine no matter how much evidence could be presented against him. Even if there was, it would take a long time to do it, and Palpatine would remain in power the whole time. Even if he were found guilty and removed, I doubt he'd vacate without trouble. So, the Jedi, or possibly Windu himself, decided to do what had to be done and to take the consequences as they come.

CDiehl wrote:Oh no, he might actually suffer some sort of consequences for breaking the rules. So what? If he cared about Padme, he'd suck it up and take his lumps, because saving her is more important than being the Chosen One. But we know that's not what happened.

Read the novelization. Anakin was perfectly willing, and indeed eager, to leave the order for the sake of his marriage, but before Palpatine talked to him he thought the only way to save Padme was to get at the holocrons in the Temple that were restricted to Masters. Hence his childish-seeming outburst upon being told that he would participate in the council but not ascend to Mastery.

There's a bit of exposition in the novelization that shows that Anakin remembers always having dead-on premonitions that he never could do anything about. At a young age he knew he would be a Jedi, when he saw Padme he knew he would one day marry her, and he knew his mother was going to die. He was suffering from a serious case of utter despair in ROTS.

CDiehl wrote:

And even if they didn't, Anakin had a premonition of Padme's "death"; the Jedi on the council may have regarded the event as the "will of the Force" and refused to help, assuming they could at all. It wouldn't have been the first time they did something stupid because of visions and prophesies.

Somehow, I doubt the Jedi shrug their shoulders and do nothing whenever someone waves a premonition in their faces. Seeing something bad coming means you can do something about it because it hasn't happened yet. I bet they saw a vision of the Sith coming every other time they dealt with them in the past, and didn't say "oh well, destiny." No, they grabbed the sabres and went after them.

You're right, in fact I remember something about a Jedi Master informing the rest of the Masters at the Jedi Enclave he was at about a premonition, which foretold that one of the students at the enclave would become a Red Armored Sith Lord... so they slaughtered every Youngling and Padawan at the enclave they could find, except for the one that escaped. Paragons of Law and Justice indeed...

About the premonitions. The problem with them is that you only see the event, not what leads up to it. From what I recall, in Anakin's life, he had premonitions that always seemed to come true. I don't remember him taking any actions to stop them or encourage them. He just made decisions as they were presented. With Padme he took direct decisive action to try to keep the vision from coming to pass. Those actions lead directly TO the premonition comming to pass.

Seems like once he has a vision, whether he does anything or not about it, it's going to be true. Possibly an indication of his strength in the Force, like he can see the "true" future while Yoda and others see multiple versions.

Also is there any thought behind the idea that Palpatine was actively using the Dark Side to corrupt Anakin? Maybe an entry in The Creation Of Monsters, which is what Sidious basically made him.

Cos Dashit wrote: This is black and white; or rather Dark and Light. Padme expunges his Jedi qualities and makes him do irrational, irresponsible, un-Jedi like things. Although he is neither 'weak' nor 'pitiful', he is rather pathetic when it comes to mainting discipline.

Excuse me? In ROTS Anakin tells Mace that Palpatine - who has been his friend, father-figure and mentor for thirteen years -is the Sith-Lord almost the moment he learns about the Chancellor's secret identity.

Also is there any thought behind the idea that Palpatine was actively using the Dark Side to corrupt Anakin? Maybe an entry in The Creation Of Monsters, which is what Sidious basically made him.

If you ask me, Palpatine didn't need the DarkSide. He had spent the last thirteen years carefully twisting Anakin's perceptions and motivations as well as cultivating his anger and need for control (of his own life and of those around him) through the clone-wars. Revealing himself and forcing Anakin to make a decision was just the final step.

I think Anakin Skywalker is a perfect case example of how the Jedi's "no personal attachments" is damn stupid.

Read the novelization. Anakin was perfectly willing, and indeed eager, to leave the order for the sake of his marriage, but before Palpatine talked to him he thought the only way to save Padme was to get at the holocrons in the Temple that were restricted to Masters. Hence his childish-seeming outburst upon being told that he would participate in the council but not ascend to Mastery.

That's all well and good, but it's not in the movie. It would have been nice if they included it, but they didn't, so Anakin looks like a whining child when he's denied the title of Master. Also, if he really needs access to information that only a Master can study, he does know a few of them, and could have asked them to look into the matter for him. Of course, that would mean having to explain why he needs to know whatever he was looking for, but obviously saving Padme's life is less important to him than keeping his butt in the Order, or getting to be the hero.

You're right, in fact I remember something about a Jedi Master informing the rest of the Masters at the Jedi Enclave he was at about a premonition, which foretold that one of the students at the enclave would become a Red Armored Sith Lord... so they slaughtered every Youngling and Padawan at the enclave they could find, except for the one that escaped. Paragons of Law and Justice indeed...

So, a few Jedi did something horrid and wrong, therefore all Jedi are no better than the Sith. Care to tell us how that story, whose source you haven't given, ends? Might it perhaps end with the Jedi catching this bunch of fools and punishing him severely for what he did?

I think Anakin Skywalker is a perfect case example of how the Jedi's "no personal attachments" is damn stupid.

Actually, I think it kind of proves why it exists, though it's probably not the best possible example of that. It's not as if, had he not fallen for Padme, Anakin would have been a model Jedi. Palpatine could easily maneuver him by using his ambition and his belief that the Jedi are hampering him. I also think his attachment to her was more about the fact that he wanted to be with her than it was about wanting her to be happy. I fully believe that, had he and Palpatine found out how Darth Plagueis kept people alive, he would have used it on her, even if it turned out to be something horribly painful for the recipient. This rule could be motivated by a desire preserve the Jedi from being emotionally blackmailed into doing something wrong. It hurts, but probably not as much as living with having let an entire planet be destroyed because you blew off a mission to save them to go help your buddies.

CDiehl wrote:That's all well and good, but it's not in the movie. It would have been nice if they included it, but they didn't, so Anakin looks like a whining child when he's denied the title of Master. Also, if he really needs access to information that only a Master can study, he does know a few of them, and could have asked them to look into the matter for him. Of course, that would mean having to explain why he needs to know whatever he was looking for, but obviously saving Padme's life is less important to him than keeping his butt in the Order, or getting to be the hero.

Anakin wanted to leave the Order by one point. The only thing keeping him in it was the promise of saving Padme. There was actually something in the novelization about Anakin considering getting Obi-Wan to help him, I think. I don't have it on me, though, so I'm not sure. Regardless, Anakin's conversation with Yoda convinced him that the Jedi would be useless in helping Padme. If he confessed his relationship it was entirely possible they would kick him out on the spot and then not help him anyway.

Actually, I think it kind of proves why it exists, though it's probably not the best possible example of that.

You're basically saying that Preacher's Daughter Syndrome proves the necessity for strict, logic-free ethical legalism. If you're reprimanded for ever showing emotions, but never taught why, you learn simply to bury everything deep down, where it festers and poisons you later.

This rule could be motivated by a desire preserve the Jedi from being emotionally blackmailed into doing something wrong. It hurts, but probably not as much as living with having let an entire planet be destroyed because you blew off a mission to save them to go help your buddies.

Real-world institutions (like, say, the military) get people to put the greater good above the welfare of their loved ones without commanding them not to have loved ones at all.