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Just watched Ep 3 with commentary, and I noticed that Lucas stated that Palpatine was just 'pretending' to be weak during the fight with Mace. At first I thought Palpy threw the fight on purpose, then I thought that Mace probably did actually beat him, now I don't know which to think. He may have been pretending to be weak, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have won either.

Anyone else watch that with commentary?

I didn't watch the commentary, but I got a distinct feeling that Palps suddenly became a shitty fighter after Mace broke the window. I once joked that the secret to Darth Sidious's lightsaber fighting skills was a carefully controlled atmosphere. Anyway, the real reason why he suddenly became a shitty lightsaber fighter, is probably that he felt Anakin coming.

I had always thought that Palpatine threw the fight. Why would he have let Anakin leave to go tell Mace, if he did not feel that he could beat him in a duel? And he was quite relaxed when Mace strode in, even with the other Jedi at his side.

Adrian Laguna wrote:I didn't watch the commentary, but I got a distinct feeling that Palps suddenly became a shitty fighter after Mace broke the window. I once joked that the secret to Darth Sidious's lightsaber fighting skills was a carefully controlled atmosphere. Anyway, the real reason why he suddenly became a shitty lightsaber fighter, is probably that he felt Anakin coming.

I think it's a combination of factors. First of all, the Emperor did his "saaave me I'm just a poor old Sithman" routine, and in order to get Anakin under his thumb, he needed him to take that step to cross the line himself.

Also, Mace was shown as a pretty dominating fighter in two movies--short as his combat sequences are--and I think it's not unlikely that Palpatine's fairly anemic lightsaber fighting technique, while effective, just wasn't good enough to beat Mace. So regardless of it ending with him saying "Fuck it" and shooting lightning into Samuel L. Jackson's forehead instead, or letting his saber be knocked away or whatever, he wouldn't have been able to beat him that way, but would have just gone to his Sith Sparklers like he seems to enjoy.

Superman wrote:Just watched Ep 3 with commentary, and I noticed that Lucas stated that Palpatine was just 'pretending' to be weak during the fight with Mace. At first I thought Palpy threw the fight on purpose, then I thought that Mace probably did actually beat him, now I don't know which to think. He may have been pretending to be weak, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have won either.

Anyone else watch that with commentary?

Yeah, it was kind of old news that was discussed a lot in the first week of the DVD's release.

Covenant wrote:

Adrian Laguna wrote:I didn't watch the commentary, but I got a distinct feeling that Palps suddenly became a shitty fighter after Mace broke the window. I once joked that the secret to Darth Sidious's lightsaber fighting skills was a carefully controlled atmosphere. Anyway, the real reason why he suddenly became a shitty lightsaber fighter, is probably that he felt Anakin coming.

I think it's a combination of factors. First of all, the Emperor did his "saaave me I'm just a poor old Sithman" routine, and in order to get Anakin under his thumb, he needed him to take that step to cross the line himself.

Also, Mace was shown as a pretty dominating fighter in two movies--short as his combat sequences are--and I think it's not unlikely that Palpatine's fairly anemic lightsaber fighting technique, while effective, just wasn't good enough to beat Mace. So regardless of it ending with him saying "Fuck it" and shooting lightning into Samuel L. Jackson's forehead instead, or letting his saber be knocked away or whatever, he wouldn't have been able to beat him that way, but would have just gone to his Sith Sparklers like he seems to enjoy.

Lucas actually said that the situation was mostly a series of damning factors on "the chosen one" short film on the DVD, and also the commentary. First, Mace went too far. He stepped over the line and wanted to be the judge and jury. Secondly, Anakin thought he was doing the right thing. He knew that Palps should stand trial, not be killed, and wanted to simply stop Mace from being his executioner. When he did, Palps blasted him out the window, and Anakin sort of just gave up.

From how he described it, it does sort of sound like Palpatine basically orchestrated the situation, knowing full well what would happen.

Lucas also mentioned that Anakin being the "chosen one" also means that he will destory the Sith, this bringing balance to the Force. Does Palps know about this prophecy?

I got the feeling Palpatine was the one who created Anakin, so I'm assuming it was all part of his plan, up until he got thrown down that big ol' shaft in RotJ. He may have believed, rightly, that Balance to the Force meant killing off a good portion of the Jedi.

Afterall, balance doesn't work well with nobody on one side or the other. Anakin did bring balance though. First, he wiped the stodgy Jedi off the map, and had a pair of force sensitive kids start to grow up. Second, he killed the old, evil Sithlord and got himself killed. This allowed the Force, with Luke, to exist in a state where it was neither goody goody trained-as-a-Padawan Light Side fluffiness nor Anger-and-Angst Dark Side. Luke, who was displaying the passion and righteous anger not of a Jedi, but of a Sith, but doing it without losing his grip on reality may not have seemed a balanced individual, but to me that's what Balance really was.

1) As of Dark Lord - The Rise of Darth Vader, the theory that Palpatine created Anakin is out. Palpatine's own POV shows that he believes Anakin was "created by the Force itself to restore balance" (possible paraphrase there).

2) Palpatine has a line in the novelisation where Anakin mentions the prophecy of the Chosen One, and he replies "Anakin, do you think the Sith did not know of this prophecy? Do you think we would simply sleep while it came to pass?" (emphasise in original). I think it's a pretty fair bet that he did know of the prohpecy, but, being a Sith and all, believed he could subvert it and prevent it from coming about.

Superman wrote:Just watched Ep 3 with commentary, and I noticed that Lucas stated that Palpatine was just 'pretending' to be weak during the fight with Mace. At first I thought Palpy threw the fight on purpose, then I thought that Mace probably did actually beat him, now I don't know which to think. He may have been pretending to be weak, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have won either.

Anyone else watch that with commentary?

But did Lucas really say that he threw the fight? He said that Mace "overpowered Palpatine". He did say that Palpatine "pretended to lose his power and become weak" and he says later that Anakin tried to prevent Mace from killing Palpatine but that he "didn't realize that Palpatine was going to kill him [Mace]". So, if we take what Lucas says for granted, it would seem as if Palpatine lost the lightsaber fight fair and square, but Sidious would still have been able to kill Mace.

I still think this scene makes much more sense if Palpatine was faking it all. In any case, while it seems prefectly clear that he exaggerated his weakness for Anakin's sake, it's not cut and clear that he didn't lose the fight. He certainly didn't expect to get disfigured. This is probably going to be one of those subjects debated for decades without a clear conclusion either way, with different camps just like over the Executor's size.

nightmare wrote:I still think this scene makes much more sense if Palpatine was faking it all. In any case, while it seems prefectly clear that he exaggerated his weakness for Anakin's sake, it's not cut and clear that he didn't lose the fight. He certainly didn't expect to get disfigured. This is probably going to be one of those subjects debated for decades without a clear conclusion either way, with different camps just like over the Executor's size.

According to the Star Wars visual guide, the 'disfigurement' was nothing more than the force lighting melting off his disguise.

Palpatine "pretending to lose his strength" must refer to when he pretends to run out of lightning-juice, not the lightsaber fight.

As for why he allowed Anakin to report his identity to the Jedi Council, he probably thought that he could kill any Jedi that came (including Mace) by clouding their minds with the Dark Side of the Force and striking them down, but though it worked on Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and (to a lesser extent) Kit Fisto, evidently it had little or no effect on Mace Windu.


The idea that Palpatine just threw the fight and let Mace disarm him reduces the impact of Anakin's presence and actions. The way things went (Mace won), the Sith were almost destroyed there and then, with the last Sith Lord being slain at the hand of a Jedi. Anakin showed up and prevented it.
If Sidious was always going to win and conquer the galaxy anyway, Anakin would be little more than a bystander.. not doing anything that wouldn't have happened anyway.

Superman wrote:According to the Star Wars visual guide, the 'disfigurement' was nothing more than the force lighting melting off his disguise.

Yeah, I like the idea of a Dorian Gray sort of thing.. where he's never actually looked all messed up like that before, but he's had to maintain a normal-looking face. When reflected lightning dissipated it, we (and he himself) sees how he would have looked, had he not preserved his normal appearance.
I suppose to some extent some of it is damage from such high intensity Sith lightning, but it makes sense that the freaky appearance is mostly the concealed, now revealed, effect of years of Dark Side use.

Anakin would be little more than a bystander..

Incidentally, that's my view of him. He was a bystander for four movies long, and finally decided to do something about Palpatine in E VI. This gives him more credit - realising that he's been simply played with all along, he finally ditches Palps..

Stas Bush wrote:

Anakin would be little more than a bystander..

Incidentally, that's my view of him. He was a bystander for four movies long, and finally decided to do something about Palpatine in E VI. This gives him more credit - realising that he's been simply played with all along, he finally ditches Palps..

It's like his "Strike me down, and your journey to the dark side will be complete!" line in RotJ--Palpatine wants people to do bad things on their own accord. He wants Anakin to make the choice to attack Mace, to seal his own fate and make Palpatine's path his own path too. Making people do bad things isn't his modus operandi, not at this level. I never liked the EU crap about him being a big mind-controller evil dude. I still see him as someone who tempts people with power and anger to unleash it in bad ways.

Superman wrote: According to the Star Wars visual guide, the 'disfigurement' was nothing more than the force lighting melting off his disguise.

The novel states differently, the force lightning melting his skin like wax and twisting his bones or something of that nature.

Which has higher canon status?

Superman wrote: According to the Star Wars visual guide, the 'disfigurement' was nothing more than the force lighting melting off his disguise.

The novel states differently, the force lightning melting his skin like wax and twisting his bones or something of that nature.

Which has higher canon status?

It could be metaphorical. His face melting off could've revealed him to be what he truly was - an ugly, despicable, evil being. Kind of like how if an asshole got his face burnt, it'd reveal how ugly he was within.

That's not necesserily irreconcilable. The novel's describing the apparent effect only...

So, do we have any actual evidence Palpatine threw the fight?

Aside from people's 'feelings' on the issue?

Mange wrote:He did say that Palpatine "pretended to lose his power and become weak" and he says later that Anakin tried to prevent Mace from killing Palpatine but that he "didn't realize that Palpatine was going to kill him [Mace]". So, if we take what Lucas says for granted, it would seem as if Palpatine lost the lightsaber fight fair and square, but Sidious would still have been able to kill Mace.

Did Lucas mean that Sidious would still have been able to kill Mace after losing his lightsaber, or did he mean that Anakin stopped Mace not knowing that that would lead to Palpatine killing him?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:It could be metaphorical. His face melting off could've revealed him to be what he truly was - an ugly, despicable, evil being. Kind of like how if an asshole got his face burnt, it'd reveal how ugly he was within.

Palpatine's comment in the novelization upon viewing his disfigurement also suggests the disfigurement was both unintended and, indeed, a disfigurement.

So are we going to completely ignore what the novelization says about the fight? With Mace's Vapaad technique and shatterpoint abilities winning fair and square for him?

Jim Raynor wrote:

Mange wrote:He did say that Palpatine "pretended to lose his power and become weak" and he says later that Anakin tried to prevent Mace from killing Palpatine but that he "didn't realize that Palpatine was going to kill him [Mace]". So, if we take what Lucas says for granted, it would seem as if Palpatine lost the lightsaber fight fair and square, but Sidious would still have been able to kill Mace.

Did Lucas mean that Sidious would still have been able to kill Mace after losing his lightsaber, or did he mean that Anakin stopped Mace not knowing that that would lead to Palpatine killing him?

IMO it's quite clear from the context that Lucas meant the former. The latter wouldn't make very much sense, would it? I mean, he would've defended a Sith and attacked (and injured) a Jedi Master. I'm not saying that I'm right, but that's how I interpreted it.

Surlethe wrote:So are we going to completely ignore what the novelization says about the fight? With Mace's Vapaad technique and shatterpoint abilities winning fair and square for him?

Of course not. Mace won fair and square.

Surlethe wrote:So are we going to completely ignore what the novelization says about the fight? With Mace's Vapaad technique and shatterpoint abilities winning fair and square for him?

The novelisation is from Windu's PoV all it proves is Windu thinks he's winning fair and square. Palpatine's novel dialogue sems to indicate to me Windu's been suckered.

Crazedwraith wrote:

Surlethe wrote:So are we going to completely ignore what the novelization says about the fight? With Mace's Vapaad technique and shatterpoint abilities winning fair and square for him?

The novelisation is from Windu's PoV all it proves is Windu thinks he's winning fair and square. Palpatine's novel dialogue sems to indicate to me Windu's been suckered.

/agree; in the german version of both book and film, one can see(imo) even better that Palpatine threw the fight in order to turn Anakin to the dark side