Sorry if this is old... but Leia survives a blaster shot..

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 06:00am

I was watching ROTJ the other day and I noticed when the blast hits her arm (this is the special edition, widescreen version I might add) you can clearly see that part (at least half) of the shot from a stormies gun splashes onto the bunker wall on the side.

So in reality, she doesn't even take the full energy of the bolt, no wonder she survived (since I doubt that uniform did much to protect her from it).

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-09 08:09am

Its quite acient but just to let you compare, Remeber the TORSO SIZED HOLES that Han was blowing through the Walls of the Blast Resitant Matrial in Mos-Esly? Those things have to stand up to a few thousand degrees of heat and untold force from ships blasting in and out, yet his hand-blaster(The SW equvilant of a .50Cal handgun) Blows Torso-sized holes in the walls

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 09:36am

All that says is that either Solo's gun is more high-powered than the weapon the Trooper was using, the material of the bunker was stronger, or both.

I see now that Darkstar's page mentioned the scene (though he gets it wrong, by ignoring the fact I pointed out above), and so I assume that the recent post by what's-his-name on this site would cover what I did too.

; )

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-01-09 10:09am

Kurgan wrote:All that says is that either Solo's gun is more high-powered than the weapon the Trooper was using, the material of the bunker was stronger, or both.

I see now that Darkstar's page mentioned the scene (though he gets it wrong, by ignoring the fact I pointed out above), and so I assume that the recent post by what's-his-name on this site would cover what I did too.

; )

Darkstar points out an obscure crack in Stormtrooper armor to reinforce his ideas of the weakness of stormtroopers, ignoring the most likely scenario that it was an unintended shot and that the stormtrooper armor was in fact cheap plastic worn by an actor.

Lord Edam · Post by **Lord Edam** » 2003-01-09 02:21pm

Mr Bean wrote:Its quite acient but just to let you compare, Remeber the TORSO SIZED HOLES that Han was blowing through the Walls of the Blast Resitant Matrial in Mos-Esly? Those things have to stand up to a few thousand degrees of heat and untold force from ships blasting in and out, yet his hand-blaster(The SW equvilant of a .50Cal handgun) Blows Torso-sized holes in the walls

One slight problem - the thousand degrees of heat and untold force from ships blasting out would have pretty much killed the stormtroopers who were in the bay when the MF took off.

We do not see the effects you claim in any of the films. I believe EU (especially NJO) have ships taking off with crowds of people still standing around them without the crowds being roasted or crushed(though being certain of that would probably mean digging out my NJO books, which is too much hard work)

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-09 02:57pm

Yeah, bean that is an exadduration. The ships take off on repulsorlifts...

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-09 03:06pm

NecronLord wrote:Yeah, bean that is an exadduration. The ships take off on repulsorlifts...

Do all ships take off on repulsorlifts? Just one ship using conventional thrusters would be enough justification for Bean's assertion that the walls are designed to resist large amount of heat.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-09 03:32pm

How can we draw the line between ineffective weapons and character shields? We've seen many examples of modern technology capable of killing anyone, except main characters (like Arnold Schwarzenegger). Does this mean that grenades are actually very weak and shrapnel and bullets can't penetrate the skin?

"It's just a flesh wound..."

Note that this is a real question, can we at some point invoke character shields as an explanation, or does it always come down to "weapons aren't actually very lethal".

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 11:51pm

Darkstar points out an obscure crack in Stormtrooper armor to reinforce his ideas of the weakness of stormtroopers, ignoring the most likely scenario that it was an unintended shot and that the stormtrooper armor was in fact cheap plastic worn by an actor.

I know how much you all hate Darkstar, but we're not even talking about Stormtrooper armor strength, just the survivability of somebody shot with a Stormtrooper RIFLE SHOT. I only mentioned his site because he talked about this scenario (to try to show the weakness of the rifles) but I clearly pointed out why his data was wrong. Though I didn't set out to prove him wrong, since I hadn't read his site until AFTER I made my post.

Just a happy coincidence. ; )

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 11:55pm

The character shields thing probably falls next to sfx bloopers and that sort of thing.

It's like the "good guys always win" argument. If we invoke them, then it means the main characters can never be killed. Best to just ignore them.

We're not talking about Arnie here... after Leia got shot, she did manage to shoot two stormies (with her other hand?) but that was it.. she didn't climb any ladders, or take out any thugs in fist fights, or swing on any ropes.

In fact, she pretty much just stayed on the ground until Han could tend to her wound. She was up and about at the end of the movie, but she kind cuddled Luke a little. Not exactly an amazing feat. ; )

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-10 12:05am

Lord Edam wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:Its quite acient but just to let you compare, Remeber the TORSO SIZED HOLES that Han was blowing through the Walls of the Blast Resitant Matrial in Mos-Esly? Those things have to stand up to a few thousand degrees of heat and untold force from ships blasting in and out, yet his hand-blaster(The SW equvilant of a .50Cal handgun) Blows Torso-sized holes in the walls
One slight problem - the thousand degrees of heat and untold force from ships blasting out would have pretty much killed the stormtroopers who were in the bay when the MF took off.

We do not see the effects you claim in any of the films. I believe EU (especially NJO) have ships taking off with crowds of people still standing around them without the crowds being roasted or crushed(though being certain of that would probably mean digging out my NJO books, which is too much hard work)

It's the second book of the BFC you are thinking of, not the NJO

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-01-10 12:37am

This is yet another bullshit claim by DipShit and other rabid Trekkies who can't seem to accept the fact that blaser rifles have POWER SETTINGS. We know the stormtrooper didn't have his blaster set to full power, because the rebels were to be taken PRISONER. That's why he runs up and says "Freeze! Don't Move!"

Also, DipShit tries to dismiss this very similar shot with the flimsiest excuse I've seen yet:

BTW, DipShit stole this screencap from my site, and didn't bother capturing it from HIS

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 07:02am

This is yet another bullshit claim by DipShit and other rabid Trekkies who can't seem to accept the fact that blaser rifles have POWER SETTINGS. We know the stormtrooper didn't have his blaster set to full power, because the rebels were to be taken PRISONER. That's why he runs up and says "Freeze! Don't Move!"

Also, DipShit tries to dismiss this very similar shot with the flimsiest excuse I've seen yet:

While that sounds like a plausible theory at first glance, let me first point out that I'm not Darkstar, and I'm not a trekkie, much less a rabid one.

As to the power setting thing, here's a good disproof of that notion:

We know that Stormtrooper rifles have a "stun" setting, which worked fine on Leia in ANH. Why not use that if the Rebels were to be taken prisoner?

The range didn't seem significantly greater than it was in ANH.

They wanted the rebels to surrender, its true, but again, they could have used stun shots at any time, rather than just standing there like idiots while Leia shot both of them at point blank range.

My contention is that the reason Leia wasn't killed, or didn't have her arm completely burned off, is because the bolt was partially dispersed on the heavy bunker wall and only grazed her. She was badly injured, but not badly enough to prevent her squeezing off two quick blaster shots from her sitting position a few seconds later.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2003-01-10 07:30am

Did the bolt even hit her? Someone posted a screencap once were it looked like it hit the wall she was using for cover and she just got hit by some shrapnel from it.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2003-01-10 07:33am

No one ever realized this, but maybe THE TROOPERS RIFLE WAS LOW ON ENERGY AND PROCESSED A LOW POWERED SHOT!

There.
I said it.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-10 07:34am

Kurgan wrote:All that says is that either Solo's gun is more high-powered than the weapon the Trooper was using, the material of the bunker was stronger, or both.

Why is the option variable yield not satisfactory? Or the idea of energy absorbing armor?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-10 07:39am

Kurgan wrote:As to the power setting thing, here's a good disproof of that notion:

Problems, you assume that the stun setting is effective at such ranges, while we know that variable yields exists for that weapon, infact it's likely that nearly every small arm comes with that function.

The range didn't seem significantly greater than it was in ANH

Oh I'd say it was definitly greater, I believe the stormie was quite some distance away.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 08:44am

Why is the option variable yield not satisfactory? Or the idea of energy absorbing armor?

To argue that the "stun" setting has horrible range, and the stormtroopers were ordered to capture Han and Leia, might make sense with your "variable setting use" theory. I'd have to watch the films again and see if it the distances can be made out.

Maybe the trooper was using a "special" version of the rifle that had the stun setting removed? Still, seems awfully odd...

I would just imagine the stun setting of an ST rifle would have been effective enough to use if capture was really their goal. Take for example, the fact that the Stormies WERE WELL WITHIN STUN RANGE (if stun range is indeed incredibly limited) after they got up close to Han/Leia. They could have stunned them both instead of just standing there and saying "Freeze... don't move" and waiting to get shot.

Maybe the "stun" settings uses up a huge amount of ammo or something (doubtful, since it looks like a totally different type of energy discharge than the one they shoot normally) and so it wasn't practical to use in this situation.

The only motive I can think of for their being captured would be to put them on trial for crimes against the Empire.. but that's a different story. In previous films the whole 'capture' or 'let them escape' thing made sense if they wanted them to lead the Empire to the other rebels (use them as bait, etc).

As to absorbing armor, I saw no evidence of Leia wearing any kind of "absorbing armor" on her arm. I suppose you're going to tell me she was wearing a full suit of compact female stormtrooper armor under her little camo/fatigues right?

I'm willing to bet that either these guns had no stun setting, or the troopers involved were simply grossly incompetent.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-10 09:00am

As to absorbing armor, I saw no evidence of Leia wearing any kind of "absorbing armor" on her arm. I suppose you're going to tell me she was wearing a full suit of compact female stormtrooper armor under her little camo/fatigues right?

No, I'm arguing the camo suit was the armor, a spec-op type one, they do exist in SW, Dooku's cloak for example was able to absorb energy from sabers and blasters.

Also, one might take into account the lenght of the battle, they might be running low on ammo, and hence lower setting would give them more shots, and while each one would be less lethal it'd be lethal enough that a torso shot would likely kill them without medical aid.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-10 10:43am

His Divine Shadow wrote:Also, one might take into account the lenght of the battle, they might be running low on ammo, and hence lower setting would give them more shots, and while each one would be less lethal it'd be lethal enough that a torso shot would likely kill them without medical aid.

There's also the little bit about the rebels were obviously supposed to be captured alive.

When Leia first met the Ewok, a Scout trooper gets her right in his sights. He does not shoot her but instead instructs his partner to "take her back to base."

When Luke meets Vader on the landing platform, Vader orders Luke's companions to be brought to him.

When a Trooper sneaks up behind Han and Leia at the end of the battle, he does not shoot them but instead orders, "Freeze, don't move"

FettKyle · Post by **FettKyle** » 2003-01-10 02:26pm

Maybe they didn't want to stun them because they were in the middle of a battle and did not want to drag limp bodys and then have them wake up at an inconvient time.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 05:17pm

Oh okay, so all the Rebels were wearing super blaster proof armor. Okay, I can buy that. Smart guys! ; )

How many actual Rebel casualties do we see in the battle of Endor ground battle (other than Leia)?

Would be interesting to see...

So not only did the Troopers use low blaster settings, they were shooting at unarmed people. We're not even talking about 200GT per shot weapons here (okay, now I'm just kidding around but still)... just friggin' stormtrooper rifles!

Must be dang powerful. Or couldn't you just say she had no special armor, but they used a super low setting and the guy just missed (he hit half the bunker, rather than her completely).

Vader wanting to capture the Rebels in ANH or ESB made sense because the Empire was hoping to use the Rebels (Han, Leia, Chewie, etc) to track them to the Rebel base(s). In ROTJ they were already caught in a TRAP and it seems they just wanted to exterminate them (if Palpatine's comments are any evidence at all).

Of course they do seem to want to capture them, or they are grossly incompetent, but that's difficult to do in a battle. However, we assume the Empire does occasionaly take prisoners, if for no other reason than to execute in grisly fashion or put on a show trial for PR purposes. Maybe that's what they wanted.

Maybe they didn't want to stun them because they were in the middle of a battle and did not want to drag limp bodys and then have them wake up at an inconvient time.

Okay, so rather than stun them and have limp bodies to deal with (after the battle? how long does stun last?) they instead WOUND them with low level blaster settings, meaning they have to deal with desperate wounded Rebels who might still be dangerous (as Leia was... she killed both troopers) and are still MOVING and even harder to move around (especially if their goal was capture.. moving a wounded person around isn't that great of an idea, considering possible fractures, internal injuries, etc).

Speaking of which... if the "Death Star Problem" was greater than we thought, perhaps stun has to be REALLY long-lasting, in order to get Leia across a moon sized battle station. Hehe, well its fun to speculate!
See thread here:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=7785

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-10 06:06pm

Kurgan wrote:Vader wanting to capture the Rebels in ANH or ESB made sense because the Empire was hoping to use the Rebels (Han, Leia, Chewie, etc) to track them to the Rebel base(s). In ROTJ they were already caught in a TRAP and it seems they just wanted to exterminate them (if Palpatine's comments are any evidence at all).

Of course they do seem to want to capture them, or they are grossly incompetent, but that's difficult to do in a battle. However, we assume the Empire does occasionaly take prisoners, if for no other reason than to execute in grisly fashion or put on a show trial for PR purposes. Maybe that's what they wanted.

Perhaps you missed the part where Vader ORDERS his officers to bring Luke's companions to him.

In the space battle, the Emperor clearly wanted a SLOW destruction of the Rebel fleet to help turn Luke to the dark side. He would also want Luke's friends tortured for the same reason. This was the entire plot of TESB. Why do you think things would be different in ROTJ.

LUKE IS THE KEY!

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-01-10 06:13pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:No, I'm arguing the camo suit was the armor, a spec-op type one, they do exist in SW, Dooku's cloak for example was able to absorb energy from sabers and blasters.

Nope no armor of any kind. You can see Leia's blood on Solo's hand when he puts his hands up in surrender.

The fact that there WAS that much blood, lend credence to the possibility that her arm was hit with shrapnel from the bunker wall.

Why didn't the trooper use the stun setting? Don't know. But possibly, the reason was he wanted a snap-shot, because Leia was hiding in the bunker doorway, and a stun shot seems to be an area effect:

that may have dispersed once it hit the edges of the doorway.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-10 06:40pm

Well, I guess I'll have to dig up a screen cap then, since nobody believes me.

Clearly, HALF the ST rifle shot splashes on the side of the bunker.. the other half appears to hit Leia's arm. I don't see any evidence of shrapnel, but I'll check it out just in case.

Maybe I'll do that tomorrow before I head out of town.

Perhaps you missed the part where Vader ORDERS his officers to bring Luke's companions to him.

Daggnabbit, you're right! I was thinking of ESB, but I watched the scene again and he does say that. "Good work... etc etc" so for all we know their goal was to capture all the rebels (which they did, until the Ewoks showed up). They still could have used stun settings at any time, unless there was some good reason not to (ie: they didn't have stun enabled guns).

In the space battle, the Emperor clearly wanted a SLOW destruction of the Rebel fleet to help turn Luke to the dark side. He would also want Luke's friends tortured for the same reason. This was the entire plot of TESB. Why do you think things would be different in ROTJ.

Possibly. In ESB I got the impression that the whole "turn to the Darkside" thing was Vader's idea (unless of course, you theorize that Palpy always wanted to turn Skywalker, to replace Vader and just made it LOOK like it was Vader's idea). Vader wanted (as we learn in ESB) to save his son (the Emperor foresaw that Luke could kill Palpy, so he wanted Luke dead... ) so that they could rule together and overthrow the Emperor, but he told his master that he would turn him to be a "powerful ally."

I guess its sorta confusing..

Original plan: Luke's dangerous, kill him. Must not become a Jedi.. he could destroy us.. etc.

Vader & Palpy's agreed upon plan: If he could be turned... powerful ally... great asset... he will join us or die.

Vader's secret plan: Join me... together rule galaxy as father and son!

Palpy's secret plan: ..take your father's place at my side.

LUKE IS THE KEY!

True. Then again, were Vader's orders going along with the Emperor's wishes? I assume so, but then there seems to be a lot of tension between the two over what's happening. Maybe not...?

You make a good case with the quote. But again, why is using low level blaster settings preferable to using the stun setting on the ST Rifles (other than Stormy incompetance)?