Rock Lee in Sunnydale

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-08-03 01:01pm

yes but bugs bunny despite loosing to the tortise is 4th window aware thus.

4th window > anime

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-08-03 01:03pm

sorry the computer running the Narutu animation is lagging a bit today.

damn I'm stuck in one frame

yes, we know, sorry, but some's be visiting Eiichi sites again.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2004-08-03 03:49pm

I've plopped him in sunnydale around season 1.. I didn't say he had to slug it out with buffy and the scoobies (which even my limited knowledge of Buffy indicates would be a complete slaughter).

As for how he handles emotional stress it depends..

When he asked Sakura out and got turned down he looked dissapointed for a bit (of course he was blowing her kisses later so it didn't last long).

Even after he was beaten, knocked unconcious, had his body massively damaged by his own extreme lotus technique (muscles ripped etc.) and had an arm and leg crushed his desire to continue fighting to 'protect his Way of the Ninja' was so great his unconcious body actually stood back up.

When he was still recovering in the hospital (not sure how long but his arm and leg were still in their casts and he still had bandadges on his facial cuts so not too long) and despite people saying the damage was so great he could never be a ninja he'd get out into the courtyard and do physical training until he dropped (he got to around 200 1 armed push-ups before he finally collapsed)

He keeps pushing himself to overcome whatever obstacles hit him no matter how bad.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2004-08-03 05:32pm

Well said. Wouldn't that be a neat development, they see him in the hospital and fing him doing 200 one armed pushups later.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2004-08-03 08:35pm

A really neat development would be a bunch of vampires finding out about Lee's lack of alcohol tolerance.. and why even his sensei gets worried when he does have any alcohol...

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-08-03 09:33pm

Man...Cordelia would tear into this guy like a cat on a scratching post. The eyebrows alone make decent ridicule material , but combined with his stubbornness, low aclohol tollerance and aspparent obsession with his training...he might just snap.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2004-08-03 10:46pm

Hmm.. I wonder how often he'd really be around Cordy though. After all he is only 13.

Then again how funny would the expression on everyone's face look when a kid an inch shorter than buffy and who's only a little over a hundred pounds beats the living daylights out of the first vampire that crosses him

Bad haircut or no that's going to probably cause a shock or two

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-08-03 11:29pm

...Yep. He'll emotioanlly snap.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2004-08-04 01:22am

I doubt it since he's been ridiculed for pretty much his entire life. Always been told there was no way he could accomplish something, had his clothes, hair, eyelashes, and behavior mocked, been told even by one of his team-mates that no matter how hard he tries he'll never be good enough. Being mocked and ridiculed are as I said, not anything new to him.

The alcohol tolerance isn't something I think she'll have much opportunity to mock.. you see Rock's a very angry drunk.. that and he's a natural master of Drunken Boxing. Not that it'll come up much since if they see him drunk they'll likely try and keep it from happening again and he isn't old enough to drink anyway (nor is he inclined to). Both times he's gotten blasted it's been by accident (once when he took the bottle his medic's sake was in instead of his medicine bottle when he was in a rush, and another time when he mistook a glass of strong liquor for water.. yes his tolerance is apperantly that low).

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-08-04 08:51am

SylasGaunt wrote:I doubt it since he's been ridiculed for pretty much his entire life. Always been told there was no way he could accomplish something, had his clothes, hair, eyelashes, and behavior mocked, been told even by one of his team-mates that no matter how hard he tries he'll never be good enough. Being mocked and ridiculed are as I said, not anything new to him.

3 things

1. You forget how good Cordelia is at ridicule
2. How DOES he react to the ridicule he has recieved?
3. Why didn't you mention this earlier?

Should I bring up the generic Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome what pervades Sunnydale, or no?

FBHthelizardmage · Post by **FBHthelizardmage** » 2004-08-04 10:26am

Majin Gojira wrote:
SylasGaunt wrote:I doubt it since he's been ridiculed for pretty much his entire life. Always been told there was no way he could accomplish something, had his clothes, hair, eyelashes, and behavior mocked, been told even by one of his team-mates that no matter how hard he tries he'll never be good enough. Being mocked and ridiculed are as I said, not anything new to him.
3 things

1. You forget how good Cordelia is at ridicule
2. How DOES he react to the ridicule he has recieved?
3. Why didn't you mention this earlier?

Should I bring up the generic Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome what pervades Sunnydale, or no?

... when has Cordelia caused anyone to emotionally snap?

Also, don't we have somewhere else to send super people other than sunnydale? The place is already a smoldering cratter.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-08-04 11:12am

FBHthelizardmage wrote: ... when has Cordelia caused anyone to emotionally snap?

remember the 'invisible girl' that was in season 1 of buffy, who wanted to slice up cordelia's face for mocking her before?

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-08-04 12:13pm

FBHthelizardmage wrote:Also, don't we have somewhere else to send super people other than sunnydale? The place is already a smoldering cratter.

1. Season 1, so it ain't a crater yet
2. I blame subtle, unintentional mysoginy myself

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2004-08-04 12:51pm

Majin Gojira wrote: 3 things
1. You forget how good Cordelia is at ridicule

2. How DOES he react to the ridicule he has recieved?

Well.. when the kids at the school would mock him as a child for being unable to using Ninjutsu or Genjutsu he had a tendency to run off and do some ludicrous amount of training into the late hours (most involving some number in the thousands)

Whenever his team-mates Ten-Ten and Neji told him he would never be good enough to defeat a naturally genius-level ninja (most specifically Neji himself) his response basically came out to 'I damn well will' and then he'd get trained up some more and try fighting him again.

When Sakura, the girl he's got a crush on called him lame to his face the first time they met he just kinda looked dissapointed.. on the other hand the second time they ran into each other when she was practically screaming in disgust at his eyelashes, eyebrows, and haircut he just said 'You're an angel' and blew her a kiss.

Most people who mock him at present tend to just be ignored.

3. Why didn't you mention this earlier?

Mention what? The angry drunkeness, the constant ridicule since he was a kid or that he was 13?

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-08-04 02:13pm

SylasGaunt wrote:Well.. when the kids at the school would mock him as a child for being unable to using Ninjutsu or Genjutsu he had a tendency to run off and do some ludicrous amount of training into the late hours (most involving some number in the thousands)

Whenever his team-mates Ten-Ten and Neji told him he would never be good enough to defeat a naturally genius-level ninja (most specifically Neji himself) his response basically came out to 'I damn well will' and then he'd get trained up some more and try fighting him again.

I take it that he's obsessive about training...dear god, the mental damage the Hellmouth would do to him because of that...

Rock won't be one of the good guys for very long.

When Sakura, the girl he's got a crush on called him lame to his face the first time they met he just kinda looked dissapointed.. on the other hand the second time they ran into each other when she was practically screaming in disgust at his eyelashes, eyebrows, and haircut he just said 'You're an angel' and blew her a kiss.

Oh dear sweet god, he's a kung-fu stalker in the making.

Mention what? The angry drunkeness, the constant ridicule since he was a kid or that he was 13?

The constant ridicule. The Highschool dynamic is an important aspect of Buffy's early seasons.

At this point, He's likely going to get the reality-crash that the Trio ofd Nerds got in Season 6...

In short, Rock's addition is going to cause so many problems, especially with his bizzare emotional state, he'd basically destroy their universe through his overcompensation, competitiveness and obsessive nature. The fact that almost all of this is relegated to Unarmed Combat just makes it worse. Only the timely intervetion of the Mayor could possible spare both Rock and Sunnydale of the horrible fate he would unleash.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2004-08-04 03:01pm

Care to go into more detail? I can almost figure out what you're getting at, but wanna see where you're taking it.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2004-08-04 03:40pm

Majin Gojira wrote: I take it that he's obsessive about training...dear god, the mental damage the Hellmouth would do to him because of that...

Well let me put it this way. He was a ninja in training and had absolutely no good things going for him. Almost all ninja (even Naruto who was at the bottom of his class) are capable of using Ninjutsu special techniques (which include water, fire, duplication and a host of other things) and Genjutsu illusion techniques (such as the henge transformation or bunshin illusion). They're pretty much required for what most people consider a worthwhile ninja, and Rock Lee couldn't do them at all. His Taijutsu (hand-to-hand) combat skills were below average as well. The only way he could survive as a ninja was to train his hand-to-hand skill up to the insane degree it's at.

He's pretty well determined to prove that working for something hard enough can overcome a defficiency in natural talent, so hes not inclined to easy ways out or quick fixes. And smashing up a vampire or two should do wonders for him there. That and one of his tenets is to protect others, something he takes extremely seriously. In the chuunin exam he risked his life fighting the three sound ninjas to protect Sakura, he would have let himself get beaten into the floor by Gaara if not for Gai giving him permission to remove his leg weights (which he wasn't supposed to take off unless he was protecting people important to him). Later on after Naruto and a genin team went off to retrieve Sasuke (remember, the guy who's the object of Sakura's affections) Rock disobeyed his doctor's orders to rest and recuperate from a recent operation (which let him go in the first place) and took off after Naruto's bunch to help, and was later willing to take on one of Orochimaru's lieutenants who'd been about to land a killing blow on Naruto in a one-on-one fight just to buy Naruto time.

Rock won't be one of the good guys for very long.

Based on? This is a person who has repeatedly shown himself to be willing to sacrifice his life to help others (even Sasuke who's one of the rivals he wants to beat) and who's willpower is second to none. I've started putting holds on the Buffy DVDs from the library but it'll be a while before I get to watch them.

Oh dear sweet god, he's a kung-fu stalker in the making.

To be fair Sakura was somewhat enamored with Sasuke (as were most of the other girls in her class) at the time. Rock's never actually followed her around though however he might act when he is around her he's not some misery type who's got pictures of her plastered all over or who follows her around constantly.

The constant ridicule. The Highschool dynamic is an important aspect of Buffy's early seasons.

Ah.. but Rock's not in high-school.

In short, Rock's addition is going to cause so many problems, especially with his bizzare emotional state, he'd basically destroy their universe through his overcompensation,

It's hardly overcompensation when you consider the two 'Genius' level ninja that he's most often compared against.

You've got Neji Hyuuga who has a huge amount of natural talent (enough he was able to figure out the Hyuuga clan's most powerful techniques all on his own), the Byakugan (which lets him see the chakra flows in a person's body, see near 360 degrees, see through solid objects, and gives him superhuman levels of visual accuity), and a master of the Gentle Fist (which involves pressure points and dumping your own chakra into the enemies chakra system, allowing you to cause severe internal injuries with even a soft hit) and who also believes one's fate is fixed and that no amount of hard work can overcome one's lot in life.

And then there's Sasuke Uchiha who's the last surviving member of the Uchiha clan in the Hidden Leaf village and who's inherited the Sharingan eye.. a little thing which allows him to copy any technique he sees (though unless he's physically capable he can't really use it.. hence why Rock's Taijutsu worked so well against him).

Those are the two of the best genin rank ninjas in the history of the village.

competitiveness and obsessive nature.

One thing we might want to consider here is what sort of effect being the best fighter around is going to have on him. Back home he had to deal with the fact that he was usually in close proximity with people who's natural 'genius' ability gave them an edge over him.. in Sunnydale the coin is flipped and the folks around with great natural abilities (be it slayer powers, vampire powers, etc.) are well below his level.

The fact that almost all of this is relegated to Unarmed Combat just makes it worse.

He's a ninja, it's his job and the only way he can do it.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2004-08-04 07:44pm

Another of those good-goody instances.. during the Chuunin Exam he rescued a squirrel that had an explosion note slapped on it and the note is already lit. An explosion note of course is a piece of paper with a spell scrawled on it that makes it explode after a certain amount of time and that usually bursts into flame right before the kaboom so that was something like dashing in to disarm a hand grenade that had already had its pin pulled (and it was already burning when he saw the squirrel and he couldn't know the delay). So add rescuing defenseless fuzzy animals to his good stuff list

Also in regards ot his crush on Sakura and her crush on Sasuke.. well he's considerably less petty than some of what I've seen on Buffy and nowhere near as delusional as a lot of the guys in these situations tend to be in anime (for instance he actually acknowledges that she doesn't like him)

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-08-04 08:05pm

SylasGaunt wrote:He's pretty well determined to prove that working for something hard enough can overcome a defficiency in natural talent, so hes not inclined to easy ways out or quick fixes.

If he discovers Buffy, etc. He's just going to hold a grudge against her. A Mystical Boon from...Somewhere is the antithesis of what he strives for.

And smashing up a vampire or two should do wonders for him there. That and one of his tenets is to protect others, something he takes extremely seriously.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

I doubt such an easy fight would do anything for his ego.

In the chuunin exam he risked his life fighting the three sound ninjas to protect Sakura, he would have let himself get beaten into the floor by Gaara if not for Gai giving him permission to remove his leg weights (which he wasn't supposed to take off unless he was protecting people important to him). Later on after Naruto and a genin team went off to retrieve Sasuke (remember, the guy who's the object of Sakura's affections) Rock disobeyed his doctor's orders to rest and recuperate from a recent operation (which let him go in the first place) and took off after Naruto's bunch to help, and was later willing to take on one of Orochimaru's lieutenants who'd been about to land a killing blow on Naruto in a one-on-one fight just to buy Naruto time.

Determined and Honorable, the second part not mentioned previously.

Based on?

What little information you provided about his emotional state

This is a person who has repeatedly shown himself to be willing to sacrifice his life to help others (even Sasuke who's one of the rivals he wants to beat) and who's willpower is second to none. I've started putting holds on the Buffy DVDs from the library but it'll be a while before I get to watch them.

Just what Sunnydale needs, another Fighter with a Martyr Complex.

To be fair Sakura was somewhat enamored with Sasuke (as were most of the other girls in her class) at the time. Rock's never actually followed her around though however he might act when he is around her he's not some misery type who's got pictures of her plastered all over or who follows her around constantly.

Under the Hellmouth's influence, such feelings are often distorted. Season 7 demonstrates it's effects on overload, all happening at once, but they included violent club rivalries, kids literally exploding under pressure and another invisible girl.

With someone like Rock...Oh, I hesitate to think how he would be corrupted/affected/mutated/"Hell-Mouthed"

Ah.. but Rock's not in high-school.

But you do propose that he interact somehow with the core characters, who hang around the highschool for the most part.

That, of course assumes, that he can notice the wackiness.

It's hardly overcompensation when you consider the two 'Genius' level ninja that he's most often compared against.

So he's going to be thrown against a 'competator' who is really no match for him purely for the improvement of his self-esteme?

That really stands in antithesis of the Buffy universe which is all about Female Empowerment. Inserting Rock Lee into their universe for what appears to be a self-esteme boost...well. It seems mysogynist, even it that wasn't the intention.

Thus, it angers and INFURIATES me

You've got Neji Hyuuga who has a huge amount of natural talent (enough he was able to figure out the Hyuuga clan's most powerful techniques all on his own), the Byakugan (which lets him see the chakra flows in a person's body, see near 360 degrees, see through solid objects, and gives him superhuman levels of visual accuity), and a master of the Gentle Fist (which involves pressure points and dumping your own chakra into the enemies chakra system, allowing you to cause severe internal injuries with even a soft hit) and who also believes one's fate is fixed and that no amount of hard work can overcome one's lot in life.

Then if he shows up for mere philosophical studies, he'll learn that Prophecies opperate differently than he's been taught. That would be benificial to him without the negative effect on the Buffyverse.

One thing we might want to consider here is what sort of effect being the best fighter around is going to have on him.

And by how much

Back home he had to deal with the fact that he was usually in close proximity with people who's natural 'genius' ability gave them an edge over him.. in Sunnydale the coin is flipped and the folks around with great natural abilities (be it slayer powers, vampire powers, etc.) are well below his level.

And you bring Buffy fan's keen eye for possible mysoginy upon you.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2004-08-04 09:04pm

Majin Gojira wrote: If he discovers Buffy, etc. He's just going to hold a grudge against her. A Mystical Boon from...Somewhere is the antithesis of what he strives for.

Hardly. He doesn't hate people who have natural talents just wants to prove that they can be surpassed through hard work. All his friends have natural talents of their own (it's part of what makes him unique in the series). Naruto has a demon locked up in him and a ludicrously high natural stamina, Sasuke (who, though a rival is still not despised but instead respected) wields the Sharingan, Sakura is one of if not the most intelligent ninja in her class (Sakura was able to answer all teh questions on teh Chuunin exam's first test.. questions specifically designed to be too hard for a genin level ninja to answer), Ten-Ten one of his team members is a natural with weapons, etc. Buffy actually helps support his thinking since despite her 'natural' talents and abilities he far surpasses her.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Question is though what is he going to do to pave it.

I doubt such an easy fight would do anything for his ego.

No because he doesn't have that big of one. It does sort of prove his point though since his hard work overcomes a vampires physical 'genius'.

Determined and Honorable, the second part not mentioned previously.

It's a long series, I have to root around through my manga.

Just what Sunnydale needs, another Fighter with a Martyr Complex.

The problem is he doesn't want to die nor is he trying to die so folks can remember him. He is however willing to risk paying that price to protect others, in that he's no different than your average soldier or police officer.

Under the Hellmouth's influence, such feelings are often distorted. Season 7 demonstrates it's effects on overload, all happening at once, but they included violent club rivalries, kids literally exploding under pressure and another invisible girl.

With someone like Rock...Oh, I hesitate to think how he would be corrupted/affected/mutated/"Hell-Mouthed"

Look how long that took though if it took all the way till season 7.. what happened to the other scoobies with that if I might ask?

But you do propose that he interact somehow with the core characters, who hang around the highschool for the most part.

Couple ways. Interrupted fight between supernatural whatsits and the scoobs, chance encounter, a wave of vampire beatings.

So he's going to be thrown against a 'competator' who is really no match for him purely for the improvement of his self-esteme?

No. The thread doesn't put him in competition against anyone, just puts him in an unfamiliar setting and pretty much throws whatever resembles a balance to the area out the window.

That really stands in antithesis of the Buffy universe which is all about Female Empowerment. Inserting Rock Lee into their universe for what appears to be a self-esteme boost...well. It seems mysogynist, even it that wasn't the intention.

I never said it was a self esteem boost, just that it's likely to work out he'll get one since all the folks with huge natural talent have an inferior level of power and skill. Not my problem if it bugs some people just because he's male since Naruto has its share of female characters most of whom certainly wouldn't be considered push-overs in the buffyverse.

Then if he shows up for mere philosophical studies, he'll learn that Prophecies opperate differently than he's been taught. That would be benificial to him without the negative effect on the Buffyverse.

Neji has been shown the error of his thinking already thanks to one of Rock's friends to beat the stuffing out of him despite being considered the town failure.

And you bring Buffy fan's keen eye for possible mysoginy upon you.

Or there apperant need to despise the idea of a male character being anything but support/comic relief.

Besides if we want to talk female empowerment there's always the fact that Rock's home village is currently headed by a woman (as the position of Hokage is granted to the best ninja in the village) who also happens to be a pioneer in battlefield medicine, is one of the three legendary Sannin, and who's so physically strong she can do this:

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-08-04 09:48pm

SylasGaunt wrote:Hardly. He doesn't hate people who have natural talents just wants to prove that they can be surpassed through hard work.

Which he's already done. Tell me how he reacts once he's surpassed someone.

All his friends have natural talents of their own (it's part of what makes him unique in the series). Naruto has a demon locked up in him and a ludicrously high natural stamina, Sasuke (who, though a rival is still not despised but instead respected) wields the Sharingan, Sakura is one of if not the most intelligent ninja in her class (Sakura was able to answer all teh questions on teh Chuunin exam's first test.. questions specifically designed to be too hard for a genin level ninja to answer)

Oh dear god she's Hermione!

Question is though what is he going to do to pave it.

Let's see: Someone striving to better himself to surpass those around them...How could that possibly be twisted towards evil?

No because he doesn't have that big of one. It does sort of prove his point though since his hard work overcomes a vampires physical 'genius'.

So the entire point if for rock to be able to revel in the fact that he was right?

It's a long series, I have to root around through my manga.

Just out of curiosity, how long?

Look how long that took though if it took all the way till season 7.. what happened to the other scoobies with that if I might ask?

Those kids were under the Hellmouth's influence for less than a year of direct exposure. Many other Hellmouth effects can be found in almost all of the seasons.

Couple ways. Interrupted fight between supernatural whatsits and the scoobs, chance encounter, a wave of vampire beatings.

So he can show off his fighty prowess over buffy's?

If he rubs that in in any way, the mysoginy detector will sound.

No. The thread doesn't put him in competition against anyone, just puts him in an unfamiliar setting and pretty much throws whatever resembles a balance to the area out the window.

Comparisons are drawn between the two's abilities, no, hence competition.

Buffy's abilities are shown to be the lesser. Hence the threat of unintentional mysoginy.

I never said it was a self esteem boost, just that it's likely to work out he'll get one since all the folks with huge natural talent have an inferior level of power and skill.

Which begs the question: Why IS he there?

Not my problem if it bugs some people just because he's male since Naruto has its share of female characters most of whom certainly wouldn't be considered push-overs in the buffyverse.

Yet they were not brought in. Sorry, but it seemed the prurpose of this thread was to see how powerful Lee was in comparison to the Buffyverse when anyone can easily tell how much he (and his fellows) would trump it, then sending him to interact with the core cast and showing himself to be better than Buffy at what she is gifted at, unintentionally belittling here.

It only later developed into the emotional reaction he would have.

Last time I checked, belittling an icon of female empowerment was not a good thing in anyone's book.

Or there apperant need to despise the idea of a male character being anything but support/comic relief.

Oh, Hi Angel, I didn't see you under that broad brush fallacy.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-08-04 09:53pm

Oh, man, CURSED LACK OF EDIT!

So the entire point if for rock to be able to revel in the fact that he was right?

Should be

So, the entire point of this thread is for rock to be able to revel in the fact that he would be 'right'?

and

Comparisons are drawn between the two's abilities, no, hence competition.

Should be more readable as

Comparisons are drawn, no? Hence Competition

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2004-08-04 10:23pm

Majin Gojira wrote: Which he's already done. Tell me how he reacts once he's surpassed someone.

Dunno yet because he hasn't really managed it yet. He never got to use the Extreme Lotus on Neji (which I don't doubt would have schooled him) and Gaara managed to take the hit and still have more fight left than Lee did. He wasn't able to beat his latest opponent either (but that was again due to this one have both artificial enhancement in the form of Orochimaru's curse seal, a fanatical devotion to Orochimaru, and a bloodline limit which gave him morphic bones).

The closest thing we see to that is when Ten-Ten and Neji both fail to master the Lotus manuever while Rock succeeds. He doesn't taunt them or lord it over them, just starts doing a goofy dance and celebrating the fact he managed to do it.

Oh dear god she's Hermione!

They are a similar character type yes.

Let's see: Someone striving to better himself to surpass those around them...How could that possibly be twisted towards evil?

You forget the rest of it though.

"A loser can surpass a genius with hard work".

So the entire point if for rock to be able to revel in the fact that he was right?

How you got that I dunno. The point I was trying to make (since you're the one who brought pyschological factors into this at all) is that here he is going to find himself confronted with proof of his convictions. It is not however the point of this debate as you seem to think.

Just out of curiosity, how long?

93 episodes in the anime, up to 225 issues in the manga.

Those kids were under the Hellmouth's influence for less than a year of direct exposure. Many other Hellmouth effects can be found in almost all of the seasons.

Some examples? Is there a common thread among those afflicted?

So he can show off his fighty prowess over buffy's?

No, just thinking of the most likely scenarios. Notice I did put random encounter in there since he does sorta stand out.

If he rubs that in in any way, the mysoginy detector will sound.

Then you've got it set too sensitive. If he rubbed it in with Buffy or another slayer that he was better because they were female it would by mysoginy, not if he rubbed it in just because he beat them (since they have naturally boosted abilities). Not that he likely would since it doesn't seem to synch with his previous behaviors.

Comparisons are drawn between the two's abilities, no, hence competition.

Comparisons have been drawn because Sunnydale is a place full of nasty, icky, aggressive things. Are Buffy and the Scooby's liable to start a fight with him?

Buffy's abilities are shown to be the lesser. Hence the threat of unintentional mysoginy.

So if a male character is stronger than a female character it's mysoginy?

Which begs the question: Why IS he there?

I hadn't really assigned him any particular objective, though I suppose I could if you feel it would give things a better structure, though I originally just stuck it in as a 'What If?" type deal where we see how badly things get shaken up by introducing an outside factor.

Yet they were not brought in.

And if you notice there is a veritable cornucopia of male character that didn't get brought in either.

Sorry, but it seemed the prurpose of this thread was to see how powerful Lee was in comparison to the Buffyverse when anyone can easily tell how much he (and his fellows) would trump it, then sending him to interact with the core cast and showing himself to be better than Buffy at what she is gifted at, unintentionally belittling here.

Being more powerful than someone at something isn't belittling them unintentional or no. Do the Blue Angels belittle me because they can fly a jet better than I could ever hope?

Interaction is the point as the introduction of something that powerful into the area is bound to throw things seriously out of whack (and with Rock involved probably result in several very amusing moments).

It was not a power comparison (though this forum being what it is those came up fairly quick I noticed) since as you see you'd have to be blind not to be able to tell Lee trumps most everyone around there physically.

Last time I checked, belittling an icon of female empowerment was not a good thing in anyone's book.

Why do you insist on stating that being better than someone at something is belittling them? I suppose Mike automatically belittles me because he's a much better engineer than I am?

Oh, Hi Angel, I didn't see you under that broad brush fallacy.

Well you're the one who keeps bringing up the idea of automatic mysoginy and belittlement whenever it comes around to Lee being better than Buffy at something.

If I was looking for the utter defeat and humiliation of a female empowerment icon i would have brought in somebody like Orochimaru or Itachi Uchiha who would casually insult the hell out of the entire cast before slaughtering them mercilessly.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-08-04 11:24pm

SylasGaunt wrote:Dunno yet because he hasn't really managed it yet. He never got to use the Extreme Lotus on Neji (which I don't doubt would have schooled him) and Gaara managed to take the hit and still have more fight left than Lee did. He wasn't able to beat his latest opponent either (but that was again due to this one have both artificial enhancement in the form of Orochimaru's curse seal, a fanatical devotion to Orochimaru, and a bloodline limit which gave him morphic bones).

The closest thing we see to that is when Ten-Ten and Neji both fail to master the Lotus manuever while Rock succeeds. He doesn't taunt them or lord it over them, just starts doing a goofy dance and celebrating the fact he managed to do it.

Ok then, what do you suspect will happen?

You forget the rest of it though.

"A loser can surpass a genius with hard work".

And that determination can be corrupted.

How you got that I dunno. The point I was trying to make (since you're the one who brought pyschological factors into this at all) is that here he is going to find himself confronted with proof of his convictions.

Which is entirely psychological.

It is not however the point of this debate as you seem to think.

Then why did the first half of the thread deal with how powerful he was in the first place?

93 episodes in the anime, up to 225 issues in the manga.

Damn, that's quite a lot.

Some examples? Is there a common thread among those afflicted?

Invisibility was the only repeated example (Season 1 "Invisible Girl", Season 7 "Storyteller").

Other Examples of Hellmouthy fun include:

Season 1: Nightmares - Nightmares coming to life thanks to a boy in a comma. Giles explains it as "Things like that are easier on a Hellmouth", which allows superscience, demonic soultions, and other wackyness

Season 2: Reptile Boy - Cult raises demon to solve problems

Ted - An andriod built with 50s technology?! We know that supernaturals do affect criences (Angel, Season 2), here's another good example...

Go Fish - Though not explicetly stated, it is doubtful tha the russian serum made fish-people...

Season 3: Beauty and the Beasts - Only on the hellmouth would a Hyde formula be considerd a viable solution instead of regular steriods

The Prom - How else would someone get the bright idea to summon hellhounds as a revenge against the prom?

Season 4: Beer Bad - Mystical beer...Only in Sunnydale

Superstar - Jonathan takes advice from Buffy and ends up going to magic instead of logical outlets...

Season 7: Help - Kids resorting to Demon Summoning to get power

Him - Magic Jacket of Lustfullness

Storyteller--Lots of wackyness from Invisible Girls to Heads Exploding under pressure, etc.

Then, of course, is the memory loss and brain tumors that prevade sunnydale...(3 Brain tumors, More memory loss than anyone cares to mention)

No, just thinking of the most likely scenarios. Notice I did put random encounter in there since he does sorta stand out.

It's basically a scene where he outdoes Buffy at her own game.

Then you've got it set too sensitive. If he rubbed it in with Buffy or another slayer that he was better because they were female it would by mysoginy, not if he rubbed it in just because he beat them (since they have naturally boosted abilities).

Do you deny that Buffy is a symbol of Female Empowerment/Feminism?

Do you deny that this would cause an instance of a Buffy being put into the secondary position, PURPOSFULLY, as per your scenario?

Hence, the mysoginy

Not that he likely would since it doesn't seem to synch with his previous behaviors.

Good to hear, but then again, we don't really know how he'd react to finding out his philosophy is right.

Comparisons have been drawn because Sunnydale is a place full of nasty, icky, aggressive things. Are Buffy and the Scooby's liable to start a fight with him?

Because they are both fighters, I thought that was clear

So if a male character is stronger than a female character it's mysoginy?

If he goes out of his way to show that, the threat exists. The scenario you've chosen for the first meet up doesn't help either.

I hadn't really assigned him any particular objective, though I suppose I could if you feel it would give things a better structure, though I originally just stuck it in as a 'What If?" type deal where we see how badly things get shaken up by introducing an outside factor.

Figured as much.

To explain how badly things would be shaken up...let me put it this way:
It threatens the philosophical destruction of the entire Buffyverse.

And if you notice there is a veritable cornucopia of male character that didn't get brought in either.

It's a non-point either way.

Being more powerful than someone at something isn't belittling them unintentional or no. Do the Blue Angels belittle me because they can fly a jet better than I could ever hope?

Interaction is the point as the introduction of something that powerful into the area is bound to throw things seriously out of whack (and with Rock involved probably result in several very amusing moments).

As a writer, I see more narrative problems than interactive points. Moslty, how are Buffy and the gang going to cope at S1 Level? The only way the really could is with sharp wit and philosophical knowledge, but I really don't know much about lee's character to judge what kind of wit he'd garner (except from Cordelia).

It was not a power comparison (though this forum being what it is those came up fairly quick I noticed) since as you see you'd have to be blind not to be able to tell Lee trumps most everyone around there physically.

Given this board, that assumption is almost a given in some cases.

Why do you insist on stating that being better than someone at something is belittling them?

You set up a meeting scenario where one character clearly shows superiority over another.

Well you're the one who keeps bringing up the idea of automatic mysoginy and belittlement whenever it comes around to Lee being better than Buffy at something.

In the scenario you provided.

Plus, there's the whole symbolic element you seem to be ignoring.
Here's a list of the major philosophies represented in Buffy

What is being proposed is not unlike Batman/Superman crossovers. Superman has the brawn, Batman has the brains, it balances out.

With Buffy and Lee...He has the Strength, Buffy has Wit and Perception--and that is probably the best way to work such a meeting, though the author of it would have to tread lightly to avoid things like the scenario you suggested for the first meeting.

If I was looking for the utter defeat and humiliation of a female empowerment icon i would have brought in somebody like Orochimaru or Itachi Uchiha who would casually insult the hell out of the entire cast before slaughtering them mercilessly.

I believe early on I stated it was "Unintentional".

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2004-08-05 01:33am

Majin Gojira wrote: Ok then, what do you suspect will happen?

Probably something similar to the goofy dance, though lasting longer since Gai isn't present ot belt him one and snap him out of it. Lee's generally a very polite sort, in fact the only time I can remember him insulting anyone was while he was drunk.

And that determination can be corrupted.

The question is how? Most of those sort of temptations come in the form of quick fixes.

Then why did the first half of the thread deal with how powerful he was in the first place?

This is a vs. debates forum and people tend to think along those lines? Notice the first reply to the thread was someone asking what he could do, then requests for more claification. Most of the posts that followed were answering those requests before things were steered back on course.

Season 1: Nightmares - Nightmares coming to life thanks to a boy in a comma. Giles explains it as "Things like that are easier on a Hellmouth", which allows superscience, demonic soultions, and other wackyness

So it's kinda like back home for Rock. I'll try and provide examples going with yours.

Season 2: Reptile Boy - Cult raises demon to solve problems

Summoning and mystic beasties are nothing new. You've got things like the 9-tailed Demon Fox, and the Shukaku of sand alongside things like Boss Frog (kaiju-scale frog that talks, smokes, does ninja hand-seals and his an appropriately scaled short sword).

Ted - An andriod built with 50s technology?! We know that supernaturals do affect criences (Angel, Season 2), here's another good example...

Two of the three sound ninja who participated in the chuunin exam were cybernetically enhanced, and for at least one of them those cybernetic enhancements were complimented by chakra manipulation techniques.

Go Fish - Though not explicetly stated, it is doubtful tha the russian serum made fish-people...

Check out Hoshigaki Kisame's picture

Season 3: Beauty and the Beasts - Only on the hellmouth would a Hyde formula be considerd a viable solution instead of regular steriods

Closest thing to that in result would be Orochimaru's curse seal process, which makes you eeeeevil, enslaves you to his will, and when the curse seal activates gives you a massive boost in power.. of course it also kills 9/10 people who have it given to them.

The Prom - How else would someone get the bright idea to summon hellhounds as a revenge against the prom?

Orochimaru summoning huge, triple headed snakes and ninja zombies so he can get revenge on the Hidden Leaf Village during the middle of the Chuunin exams.

Season 4: Beer Bad - Mystical beer...Only in Sunnydale

We've had mystical foodstuffs (most of which involve some form of temporary physical boost), the beer is new though.

Superstar - Jonathan takes advice from Buffy and ends up going to magic instead of logical outlets...

Outlets for ideas and such or outlet as in outlet mall?

Season 7: Help - Kids resorting to Demon Summoning to get power

Summoning already spoken on above.

Him - Magic Jacket of Lustfullness

Ah.. a clothing version of viagra?

Storyteller--Lots of wackyness from Invisible Girls to Heads Exploding under pressure, etc.

Plenty of weird crap floating around.. talking dogs, walking on water, nosebleeds that launch people through the air.

Then, of course, is the memory loss and brain tumors that prevade sunnydale...(3 Brain tumors, More memory loss than anyone cares to mention)

No mention of cancer yet, there are forms of hypnosis available.

It's basically a scene where he outdoes Buffy at her own game.

I set no specific encounter scenario. They could quite concievably simply run across each other in the street, or since Buffy has a tendency to head after vampires and Rock has a tendency to head off to help people in distress it's also fairly likely they'd run into each other in a situation like that, but not a given.

Do you deny that Buffy is a symbol of Female Empowerment/Feminism?

Do you deny that this would cause an instance of a Buffy being put into the secondary position, PURPOSFULLY, as per your scenario?

So if Buffy's not in the spotlight it's automatic mysoginy? You're completely ignoring the idea of the reasons behind any of this. As I said, if Buffy was put into a secondary position by Lee then that does not automatically equate to mysoginy simply because there are reasons other than him being male and her female for why things would end up that way. If I'd put Tsunade in there she'd also be shoved into a secondary position even moreso than with Rock present. Your problem is you seem to think that any male being better at Buffy at fighting is mysoginist.

Buffy still does have things going for her. Rock's more skilled, faster, and stronger than she is. On the other hand I'd bet good money that he doesn't have the slightest clue how to kill a vampire for example.

Hence, the mysoginy

Ah so because she's such a symbol any male that detracts from her leading position is automatically mysoginist and damn whatever the reason is for that being so.

Good to hear, but then again, we don't really know how he'd react to finding out his philosophy is right.

True but in the past he's been fairly polite to everyone even people trying to kill him.

Because they are both fighters, I thought that was clear

Comparisons have been drawn because they do a lot of the same stuff (hurting things). Plus this is a vs. forum so that sort of thing comes up.

If he goes out of his way to show that, the threat exists. The scenario you've chosen for the first meet up doesn't help either.

I haven't chosen a scenario for a first meeting, I gave some potential scenarios for an initial encounter.

And motive is what matters. If he's rubbing it in because he's male and she's female then yes it is mysoginy, if he's rubbing it in just because he's a better fighter that's just being a jerk.

To explain how badly things would be shaken up...let me put it this way:
It threatens the philosophical destruction of the entire Buffyverse.

And lo the female characters fell out of the seat of most powerful good-folks and thus the entire universe imploded on itself. Seriously though..

As a writer, I see more narrative problems than interactive points. Moslty, how are Buffy and the gang going to cope at S1 Level?

Take up Rock's philosophy and try harder? Does Buffy even train? I don't claim to be an expert but none of the eps I've seen involved any sort of practice on her part.. just kinda depending on her powers giving her the edge.

The only way the really could is with sharp wit and philosophical knowledge, but I really don't know much about lee's character to judge what kind of wit he'd garner (except from Cordelia).

Lee's not really one to spew out witty dialogue if that's what you mean. They've also got him beat hands down on local and supernatural knowledge probably.

You set up a meeting scenario where one character clearly shows superiority over another.

No I gave a potential scenario (meeting at a vampire attack and such) but did not specify beyond that based on past behavior (Lee's tendency to go help, and Buffy's tendency to stick pointy things in vampires). I did not specify it as the starting scenario, merely gave it as a possiblity and never elaborated beyond that (it could very well involve Lee not getting there until the vampire's already met its stabbity death).

Plus, there's the whole symbolic element you seem to be ignoring.
Here's a list of the major philosophies represented in Buffy

Yes because you can't have a feminist symbol who's physically weaker than someone who comes from a village full of ninja and who's been undergoing intense physical training for years. Nevermind that the person in charge back home is a woman who could snap him like a toothpick and who's got him beat brainswise to boot.

What is being proposed is not unlike Batman/Superman crossovers. Superman has the brawn, Batman has the brains, it balances out.

With Buffy and Lee...He has the Strength, Buffy has Wit and Perception--and that is probably the best way to work such a meeting, though the author of it would have to tread lightly to avoid things like the scenario you suggested for the first meeting.

That was suggested right alongside bumping into each other on the street, though I doubt that would result in much more than possibly buffy staring and/or laughing at him. There's bound to be other scenarios though.

I believe early on I stated it was "Unintentional".

It doesn't qualify though since my choice of Rock in this was a matter of personality, ability, and fashion sense rather than a matter of gender.