Elminster VS Borys of Ebe.

[Blayne]

Also the rays of a gibbering orbs are ranged touch attacks, meaning they bypass Elminster's full AC and instead use his touch AC which is 19 base, maybe slightly higher if he somehow turns into a pit fiend but with +31 the Gibbering orb is guaranteed to hit.

[Aharon]

@Blayne
Duration of Precognition=> Extend
Teleporting in => Sleeping in Rope Trick. Inaccessible by teleport.
Dimensional Lock => Contingency (Celerity) "Somebody casts Dimensional Lock within x feet of me"
Cheese => You need lots and lots of cheese to win against a generic 20th level caster. Anything over level 20 doesn't add much.

Heck there's a level 1 spell as a swift action that basically is "Always go first: The Spell, the End thanks for playing."
It's Nerveskitter, it adds +5 to initiative, which in combination with hummingbird familiar and improved ini means +13. At low levels, this is indeed an "I act first"

=> Eye Rays

Eye Rays (Su)
[]The eye rays are: cone of cold, disintegrate, dominate monster, energy drain, feeblemind, finger of death, flesh to stone, greater dispel magic, harm, hold monster, horrid wilting, implosion, inflict critical wounds, lightning bolt, magic missile, mage’s disjunction, irresistible dance, baleful polymorph, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray, slay living, and temporal stasis.

I read this to be meant like the beholder, which has 10 different effects for its rays, but can use each only once per round.

And are you really suggesting that throughout the entirety of 3.5e there isn't a spell thats basically true strike but for Other? I am extremely skeptical. Heck while we're at it why not just get a wand or gauntlets of true strike and just give them to the Gibbering Orb and have them use it himself? He clearly has the INT to do it.

No such spell exists, to my knowledge. There are no gauntlets of true strike, either, AFAIK. To activate a wand of true strike, the Gibbering Orb would either need to have levels in a class that has the spell on its class list (wizard or sorcerer, for example), or Use Magic Device. Neither is the case for normal Gibbering Orbs.

Also what miss chance?

"Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target."

The miss chance from Greater Mirror Image doesn't stem from concealment, neither does the miss chance from Greater Blink.

Additionally it doesn't matter if True strike is only for one attack you have two Gibbering Orbs at a minimum, so thats two attacks that will always hit, in case he has an energy transformation field I would use them on two dysjunctions and with that he has no defences and no magic items.

As shown above, the Gibbering Orbs won't hit.

Additionally

Quote:
@Contingencies
Contingency
Greater Shadow Evocation (Contingency)
Chain Contingency
for 5 personal contingencies.


Uhm, "Chain Contingency" doesn't exist in 3.5e dude. Also Shadow'ed contingency can't stack with real contingency either because:

1) It mimics the whole spell including the "You cannot cast more than one contingency at a time on yourself" rule or my personal favorite:

2) Since it is casted as an illusion spell and you as the caster know for a fact it is not real, thus it has no effect on you.

Chain Contingency is in Tome and Blood. 3.0 material can be used unchanged in 3.5 games if there aren't any official changes, as per the update booklet.

Also, a Greater Shadow Evocation is 60% likely to work against a non-believer. Simply cast it till you succeed. And it mimics the spell, but is not the spell itself. Same effects from different sources work.

So you are stuck with one contingency spell, and Elminster does not have the Craft Contingency feat; nor do I see anything online that it can be casted on an item, only on a "person or creature", so I have no idea how or why you would think it counts as an item.
3) Contingency I'm pretty sure is also personal only, meaning that you cannot have someone else craft a contingency for him it won't work.

It would be nice if you researched stuff yourself. Craft Contingent Spell is in Complete Arcane, and works the way I described.

There's other tactics as well though some conflict, such as casting Anti magic field on the Gibbering orb which is a simulcrum and thus a construct and unaffected by it, its rays still work and just plop it right next to Elminster which shuts off his contingencies and then Elminster gets glomped.

What? Please explain in more detail what you want to do, I'm not sure I understand correctly.

Anti-magic Field.

Borys tears Elminster apart.

Sorry, even the weakesst feasible write up I could do for Borys, he rips Elminster apart.
He can counter-spell Elminster until Elminster is out of power, then rip him apart with Psionics, or just rip him apart.

There is a reason Dark Sun was considered 'over-powered' in many circles.

There are so many ways to get around that simplistic tactic I don't even know where to start. Tinfoil hat is a common counter, for example.

Neutral ground, Elminster wins due to Astral Projection and a cool demiplane, which Borys doesn't have access to. Elminster can unload his whole arsenal in a round that way.
On Athas, winning is unlikely, but neither can Borys.
On Faerun, Elminster has a buttload of allies and a goddess that just says "No", and Borys suddenly has neither magic nor psionics, thus wins.

[Blayne]

Rope trick is however accessible by Gate and similar extradimensional spells, as well as interdimensional scrying so its just a matter of finding Elminster and then opening a Extradimensional Space within an Extradimensional space and BOOM.

I read this to be meant like the beholder, which has 10 different effects for its rays, but can use each only once per round.

Which is wrong as the text says no such thing.

It's Nerveskitter, it adds +5 to initiative, which in combination with hummingbird familiar and improved ini means +13. At low levels, this is indeed an "I act first"

Which along with other dex boosting spells and other cheese you can crank up your initiative above Elminsters.

No such spell exists, to my knowledge. There are no gauntlets of true strike, either, AFAIK. To activate a wand of true strike, the Gibbering Orb would either need to have levels in a class that has the spell on its class list (wizard or sorcerer, for example), or Use Magic Device. Neither is the case for normal Gibbering Orbs.

You can craft said gauntlets. Or an amulet, etc etc.

The miss chance from Greater Mirror Image doesn't stem from concealment, neither does the miss chance from Greater Blink.

The SRD specifically says Blink's miss chance is via concealment and GMI doesn't help Elminster at all as a Dysjunction burst from myself or my familiar or an Anti Magic field will dispel them.

Also Greater, Arcane Sight and mirror image is useless. Also contingency isaac's magic missile storm.

Also point is, it's still touch AC we're dealing with so its a very thin layer of defences.

Chain Contingency is in Tome and Blood. 3.0 material can be used unchanged in 3.5 games if there aren't any official changes, as per the update booklet.

Bullshit, if its not in 3.5e it doesn't exist. Your DM may allow it but you cannot universally assume it is true.

Also, a Greater Shadow Evocation is 60% likely to work against a non-believer. Simply cast it till you succeed. And it mimics the spell, but is not the spell itself. Same effects from different sources work.

Again, I'm calling BS if your mimic'ing Contingency then your also mimic'ing its restraints.

It would be nice if you researched stuff yourself. Craft Contingent Spell is in Complete Arcane, and works the way I described.

Your the one making a positive claim, you back it up. As far as I can see from googling it a) targets a creature and b) isn't an item regardless of the semantic usage of the word "craft" and finally c) contingency cannot be casted by a third party on you.

Remember if your insisting on it then it becomes child's play for myself to craft 20 contingencies on each of the creatures I bring with me giving them true strike on every attack.

What? Please explain in more detail what you want to do, I'm not sure I understand correctly.

I presented one out of many cheesy strategies to neutralize a high level caster, anti magic field on a construct (the gibbering orb) and it can easily grapple Elminster and then use its rays such as energy drain as a touch attack.

There are so many ways to get around that simplistic tactic I don't even know where to start. Tinfoil hat is a common counter, for example.

Neutral ground, Elminster wins due to Astral Projection and a cool demiplane, which Borys doesn't have access to. Elminster can unload his whole arsenal in a round that way.
On Athas, winning is unlikely, but neither can Borys.
On Faerun, Elminster has a buttload of allies and a goddess that just says "No", and Borys suddenly has neither magic nor psionics, thus wins.

1) A tinfoil hat doesn't protect you from psionics, only certain magical items can.
2) As soon as Elminster astral projects you can use forbiddance and he can't astral back or attack you. Or prevent him from leaving.
3) Elminster's "allies" are equally unimpressive and presumably we can just gather up Tzas Tam, Zhengi, at least two named Dracolich's, Grompth, The Shadovar, some Phearims, Demon and Devil Lords etc etc etc[/u] more escalations games but however Mystra is bound by Ao to never intervene herself as doing so damages the weave and reality itself.

Also you could make the argument that Borys magic doesn't derive from the Weave but from as mentioned from draining the life from the local ecosystem and psionics is internal to the person not external so Mystra couldn't do anything.

[Aharon]

@Rope trick
Extradimensional space=demiplane, read up on demiplanes in the Manual of the Planes.

@rays
whatever, it doesn't make any difference.

@initiative
Elmi has access to the same, at best it's a toin coss.

@Crafting
Crafting custom items isn't usually done in this kind of match. Otherwise, why not have Elmi craft a hat of "I already won."

@miss chance
no, not due to concealment only. Plus, the Orbs don't have true strike anyway, which you ignored.

@touch ac
scintillating scales for change from natural to deflection. Found in Spell Compendium.

@3.0 stuff
It's official WotC policy. If you wish to ignore that, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

@shadow contingency
same effect, different source => works

@Contingent Spells
Complete Arcane, page 139. Yes, you can give your minions contingent spells this way, but it costs a lot and takes a lot of time.

@AMF
doesn't work, you won't get the caster into the AMF. One simple counter is via tinfoil hat, but there exist others: Shrink item on metal cone, worn on head. Once in AMF, Cone expands, AMF doesn't have line of effect to you, you can teleport out.

@forbiddance
6 rounds casting time...
@Mystra
Source for the Ao stuff?
@allies
Elminster doesn't need them anyway=> AP works perfectly well.

[Blayne]

Crafting custom items isn't usually done in this kind of match. Otherwise, why not have Elmi craft a hat of "I already won."

@3.0 stuff
It's official WotC policy. If you wish to ignore that, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

@shadow contingency
same effect, different source => works

Dude, you are more or less selectively pulling stuff from the nether to give Elminster advantages that really aren't supported by the text and require extremely dubious DM rulings to allow.

Also in matches like this you give both sides usually about 50% XP and their wealth table for that level in which to use for spell casting and crafting.

No it is *not* a different source it is the *same* spell, otherwise if you could cast contingency on someone else hypothetically it would mean you could have two contingencies! It's clear that Contingency is not meant to stack.

No I don't care what WoTC says, I have never seen a DM allow anything from 3.0e into a 3.5e game unless there is a 3.5e version of the spell and such has been updated via errata. Allowing blanket amnesty to a whole field of 3.0e spells and abilities breaks 3.5e beyond recognition.

Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.

Very clearly spells that work across planes can access the space of a rope trick, it isn't invulnerable.

Elminster *does not* have the same access to boost initiative, his character is *prebuilt* you can cheese up a fresh character to edge him out in initiative order.

@miss chance
no, not due to concealment only. Plus, the Orbs don't have true strike anyway, which you ignored.

It what the spell says, its implicit that it is a concealment bonus when against creatures that can see Ethereal or Invisible creatures.

Also orbs *can* have True Strike, via craft wonderous item or via contingencies for your familiar down below.

@touch ac
scintillating scales for change from natural to deflection. Found in Spell Compendium.

Your missing that I have more ways to improve my touch attack than you do to improve your touch AC its a lost cause.

@Contingent Spells
Complete Arcane, page 139. Yes, you can give your minions contingent spells this way, but it costs a lot and takes a lot of time.

Key words *to your minions* Elminster doesn't typically have any, and likely wouldn't summon several chaotic evil creatures, this helps my argument more than yours.

@AMF
doesn't work, you won't get the caster into the AMF. One simple counter is via tinfoil hat, but there exist others: Shrink item on metal cone, worn on head. Once in AMF, Cone expands, AMF doesn't have line of effect to you, you can teleport out.

That makes no logical sense and have never seen this and pretty much up to DM fiat to work, so don't count on it.

@forbiddance
6 rounds casting time...

There are other spells and items dude.

@Mystra
Source for the Ao stuff?
@allies
Elminster doesn't need them anyway=> AP works perfectly well.

It's somewhere in the 300 books I've read; otherwise why would there exist evil mages, more importantly why would Karsus succeed in becoming a god (albeit for a short duration), also again Tzas Tam and the million Liches that are running around. Fact is we have a situation in the lore where Mystra doesn't and hasn't intervened 99% so it is logical to suppose she won't unless we get unlucky and Dysjunction zaps an artifact of hers.

[Aharon]

No I don't care what WoTC says, I have never seen a DM allow anything from 3.0e into a 3.5e game unless there is a 3.5e version of the spell and such has been updated via errata. Allowing blanket amnesty to a whole field of 3.0e spells and abilities breaks 3.5e beyond recognition.

Thanks for playing, and bye. If you don't play by the rules, I won't waste my time arguing rules with you. You have no idea of high-op, obviously. I view this combined with your refusal to cite sources, as a concession.

[Blayne]

Cite what sources? For general fluff knowledge that has nothing to do with the mechanical argument as to what could beat Elminster? What about the constant referencing to state books that I don't have access to that you keep refusing to post excerpts from?

I do play by the rules, just not your arbitrary rules where you accept some things but not others.

[Aharon]

@Sources
Assumed you had access to them. Which books do you have?

@Discussion
Alright, you propose some ground rules, then.

[Blayne]

Alright, just give me a bit to think; we doing hypothetical level 20 or the level 30 dragondude? With or without epic spell casting? Presumably without to make it fair.

[Aharon]

I propose a build that's still partly customisable:

Human
Wizard 1 Precocious Apprentice, Scribe Scroll (or ACF or variant class), your choice
Psion 1
Psion 2 Harden Energy(or another Psi-Spell Feat of your choice found on this list)
Psion 3
Cerebremancer 1
Cerebremancer 2 Concussive Blast (or another Psi-Spell Feat of your choice found on this list)
Mind Mage 1-10
Cerebremancer 3-5

Feats for these levels are your choice, but must include 2 metamagic and 2 metapsionic feats and great fortitude to qualify for this version of Athasian Dragon (chosen because it's freely available).

Athasian Dragon 1-10, feats of your choice.

WBL of a 31st level character, 15.500 XP to spend. Epic spells are ok, as long as mitigation through spells is limited to 1 9th level spell by a potential cohort (if your build has leadership), 1 by a gated solar and 1 by a simulacrum for a maximal DC reduction of 17*4=68.

[Solauren]

For Sources:
If it's a pre 4th edition TSR/WOTC Published book or source, I have it.
If it's a 3e/3.5 book or source, it's in a searchable database I built. (Exceptions: SOme Dragon Magazine articles were not entered, just the 'crunch')

I'll happily play 'library' for this.

[Aharon]

Hey Blayne, are you still interested in this? I'm a bit miffed that you complain about me trying to frame rules for this thing and then not delivering yourself.

[Blayne]

I'm a university student in an intensive summer semester, sorry I've been busy with papers (Seven Years' War and Game theory analysis of the Cuban Missile Crisis), exams, and job interviews; once they're done and not busy with other projects I will get back to this. Thank you for your patience.

[Aharon]

Yet, you do have the time to discuss Best/Worst military forces in Science fiction, peak iron and the chinese astronauts?

I would appreciate if you instead just outright admit that you lost interest for whatever reason. If my impression is wrong and this isn't the case, please name a date when we can continue, not some vague "I'll get back eventually." You should have the time management skills to be able to do so.

[Blayne]

There`s a significant difference in the degree of effort it takes to debate mechanics in Dungeons and Dragons which involves me to prowl through the SRD, my books, find my pdf`s of other books; go to other forums for consultation and my previous thread at Giantitp where I did this entire encounter before than it is to debate topics off the top of my head using information I`ve learned previously or is the subject of my undergraduate courses.

It is something I was waiting until I can put my full attention to, I don`t not quite have a date in mind but my last exam is next week.

Also I am very terrible at time management this is true as well.

[Aharon]

Ah, a misunderstanding. Shouldn't have interpreted your post to much, the internet doesn't convey tone well. I'll subscribe to the topic so I notice when you have the timeto post again.

I'm curious what you'll bring to the table

[Blayne]

If you want dude if you got teamspeak or mumble we can try discussing it via voip, as I'm always online for that and would be hands free. And would be able to use MapTools and record the encounter. If you have a microphone I can pm you and anyone else interested the information.

[Aharon]

Don't have either, will DL them during the next week. What time zone are you in? I'm German, can we find a common time?

[khursed]

I recently got the original darksun stats for the dragon.

Extremely powerful defiler/psionicists gain even
greater power if they choose to transform themselves
into dragon form. The process is described below.
Prerequisites: Only humans and half-elves can proceed
through levels from 21st to 30th level as a dragon.
Also, the ability score requirements are stringent:
a defiler passing 20th level must have an Intelligence
score of 18, Wisdom 16, and Constitution 15.
Dragon Experience Levels
Level
21
22
23
24
25
26
2 7
28
2 9
3 0
Dragon
0
400,000
800,000
1,200,000
1,600,000
2,000,000
3,000,000
4,200,000
5,600,000
7,200,000
Hit Dice
+ 1 0 d 4
+ 5d4
+ 3d4
+ 2d4
+ 2d4
+ 3d4
+ 3d4
+ 4d4
+ 4d4
+ 5d4

As you can see the formating isn't easy to transcribe. He does add 41 D4 of hp from level 21 to 30.

I'm not gonna try the wizard spell progression table as I'm sure it will be horrible.

After earning the requisite experience points, the
defiler must also successfully cast the dragon metamorphosis
spell before attaining each new level.
(This spell will be the first psionic enchantment cast
by the character; he can cast it to advance from 20th
to 21st level, even though he technically cannot cast
such a high-level spell until he reaches 21st level.)
Points from the Hit Dice rolled add to the dragon’s
hit point total; Constitution modifiers are added per
die rolled.
Dragon Metamorphosis Spell
The material components, casting times, and other
factors governing the casting of this psionic enchantment
appear with its description in the New
Wizard Spells appendix. Generally, any divergence
from the letter of the spell description or any interference
with its casting results in the failure of the
spell and the death of the caster.
When the spell is successfully cast, the dragon
drastically changes in both powers and physical
appearance. Each stage of the metamorphosis is
extremely painful; as stated in the spell description,
the dragon character must pass a system
shock roll or die in the process. Most aspiring
dragons lock themselves away and perform their
Spell Level
6
4
4
5
5
5
5
5
6
6
6
7
7 8 9 10
3 3 2 1
4 4 2 1
4 4 3 1
5 5 3 2
5 5 4 2
5 5 5 2
5 5 5 3
6 5 5 3
6 6 6 3
6 6 6 4
7 6 6 4
metamorphoses in secret.
Once a character becomes a dragon (21st level or
higher), it gains certain benefits. Dragons are immune
to the effects of age and never die of “natural
causes. ” Also, a dragon gains the ability to understand
and speak any language. This innate ability
functions like a tongues spell.
21st-level dragon: A dragon character who reaches
21st level makes the first in a series of ten alterations
to its physical form. When completed, the
humanoid form of the dragon doubles in mass to
350 pounds. The dragon may retain its original
height and simply gain bulk, may grow as tall as 8
feet, or may simply grow more dense. Physical
changes are uncontrollable and unpredictable.
Though it still retains humanoid characteristics, the
dragon’s face elongates slightly and its nostrils
lengthen. The dragon’s spine becomes more pronounced,
and rudimentary scales appear on the
shoulders and back. THAC0 remains 11.
22nd-level dragon: Here the dragon’s physical
form changes still further, increasing to around 450
pounds and as tall as 10 feet. Its face elongates further
and the first hints of scales appear on its lengthened
snout. The dragon’s spine becomes still more
pronounced, and the stub of a tail appears. The

dragon’s THAC0 improves to 10.
23rd-level dragon: The dragon grows to around
650 pounds and gains another foot in height. All
limbs lengthen drastically, including fingers and
toes. The dragon’s neck also lengthens, lifting its
now reptilian head and face far above its shoulders;
all hair vanishes by this level. THAC0 becomes 9.
24th-level dragon: The dragon’s humanoid origins
can hardly be recognized. Its weight increases
to nearly 900 pounds and it can be as much as 12
feet long. Tough scales, now everywhere but the underbelly
and the underside of its limbs, grant a natural
Armor Class of 4. The legs become strikingly
inhuman, developing huge thighs and a hardangled,
bony calf and taloned foot. At this level the
dragon may also hunch severely at shoulder and
waist, and can move either upright or on all four
limbs at a rate of 15. Its wicked claws give two attacks
per round (2d10 damage). THAC0 drops to
an 8.
25th-level dragon: Now fully 12 feet long from
snout to growing tail, the dragon weighs around
1,600 pounds. Its scales give AC 0 and now have a
magical enchantment that allows only weapons of
+1 or better magic to hit. The dragon’s jaws protrude
remarkably, allowing a bite attack that inflicts
4d12 damage. The dragon enters a period of uncontrolled
savagery known as its “animalistic period
” (described below). THAC0 falls to 7.
26th-level dragon: By this time, the 2,000-pound
form is completely hunched but can still stand erect
at its full 16-foot height at times. Its scales have improved
to AC -2. The hind legs have strengthened,
allowing a jump of 5 per round. Also, its great
claws now inflict 2d10 + 5 points of damage, with a
THAC0 of 5.
27th-level dragon: With this new level, the dragon
nearly doubles its weight to 4,000 pounds (2 tons)
and a length of 20 feet. Its armor improves to AC
-4. With the progressing metamorphosis, it can
now use its breath weapon, a cone of superheated
sand 5’ wide at its base, 50’ long, and 100’ in diam-
eter at the far end, inflicting 10d12 damage, with a
THAC0 of 3.
28th-level dragon: The dragon’s weight increases
to 10,000 pounds (5 tons), and its length reaches to
25 feet, mostly due to its full-grown tail. The tail can
attack (5d10 damage). Also, the dragon’s claws
now inflict 2d10 + 10 damage each. Hide and scales
lend it AC -6 and immunity to weapons of less
than +2 magical enchantment. Also, the dragon
has a natural magic resistance of 20% at this level.
THAC0 drops to 1.
27th-level dragon: The dragon is 30 feet long and
20,000 pounds (10 tons). Wings sprout at this level,
but only give 18 (C) flying speed. Armor improves
t o A C - 8 a n d m a g i c r e s i s t a n c e t o 4 0 % . T h e
breath weapon inflicts 20d12 damage. At the end of
this experience level, the dragon’s animalistic period
draws to a close, and cold cunning and reason once
again take control. At 27th level, the dragon’s
T H A C 0 b e c o m e s - 1 .
30th-level dragon: This final stage of the metamorphosis
leaves the humanoid form completely behind
in favor of a pure dragon, 40 feet long and
50,000 pounds (25 tons). Its wings are fully developed,
allowing 45 (A) flying movement. Scales give
AC -10 and magic resistance of 80%.
tacks improve to 2610 + 15 damage each; breath
weapon reaches its maximum 25d12 damage.
T H A C 0 i s - 3 .
Regardless of level, a dragon makes saving throws
as a 21+ - level wizard.
Dragons and Psionics
As it advances, a dragon character retains all psionic
powers it had previously and gains more. With
every level advancement, the dragon gains one additional
science and one additional discipline. It also
gains psionic strength points for every level advancement,
just as described in the Complete Psionics
Handbook. Effectively, a 21st-level dragon is also a
21st-level psionicist, etc.

Dragons and Magic
Dragons must have a unique focus for their powerful,
destructive magic: obsidian orbs. An obsidian
orb is not inherently magical, but it allows the dragon
to cast psionic enchantments.
Orb creation: The obsidian orb must be crafted
perfectly, without flaws. Locating a specimen of raw
obsidian that can be so worked is often difficult.
Once located, a craftsman must take special care in
preparation to make a perfect sphere of shining obsidian.
Typically, even with slave labor, a sorcererking
must expend 1,000 gp or more to create a
perfect specimen. The finished orb is 1d20 inches in
diameter.
Next, the dragon itself must activate the orb. The
orb is not enchanted, but is psionically linked to the
dragon in a single ritual. The dragon must swallow
the orb and let it pass through its body, taking one
to three days. When it emerges, the orb is activated
for that dragon only. With it the dragon can cast
psionic enchantments.
Note: When casting the first dragon metamorphosis
spell, the ambitious defiler need not have an
obsidian orb. However, creating one may very well
be its first act on becoming a 21st-level dragon.
A dragon can create any number of obsidian
orbs. Rarely is a dragon without an orb. However,
before reaching a new level, the dragon must swallow
all existing activated orbs as part of the material
component for the dragon metamorphosis spell. Effectively,
an orb only works for the single experience
level at which it was created.
Other advanced beings need not have orbs to cast
their magic. Lack of an orb does not interfere with
the dragon’s psionic abilities or its ability to cast
spells of 9th level or below.
The Animalistic Stages
From 25th through 29th levels, the ascending
dragon goes through a terrible rampaging period.
Reason is often superseded by a lust for destruction.
Vegetation and animals that do not directly serve
the dragon’s purpose are targets for its unending
wrath, laid waste in its quest for power and advancement.
The savage destruction comes of the incredible
pain that wracks its body during these final
stages of metamorphosis. No longer human but not
yet dragon, its need to end the process nearly drives
it mad.
For role-playing purposes, advancing dragons
should take an illogical bent toward destruction.
DMs should “take over” player character dragons
who reach 25th level for the length of the animalistic
period. Once it successfully reaches 30th level and
reason returns, the character can be returned to the
player. In the meantime, the player should use some
other character from the character tree.
Magic vs. Dragons
Some magical items in the DMG can affect character
dragons.
Potion of dragon control: On Athas, dragons are
not divided into the colored and metal varieties, so
ignore the table presented for this potion. If such a
potion fruit is found in a DARK SUN™ campaign,
it works against any dragon. Character dragons receive
a saving throw against the spell with a -2 penalty,
and the potion’s control lasts for 5d4 rounds,
just as in the DMG.
Scroll of protection—dragon breath: The scroll
functions against character dragons just as described
in the DMG.
Sword +2, dragon slayer: In DARK SUN campaigns,
this sword functions against any dragon, regardless
of its level.
Spells: In Tome of Magic, two spells specifically
affect dragons. Dragonbane functions just as described
in that volume. Age dragon has no effect on
DARK SUN world dragons, since they are effectively
immortal.

Roleplaying a Dragon
The execution of each dragon metamorphosis
spell—picking its location, gathering the complicated
material components, and its casting—should
be role-played as major events. The DM shouldn’t
simply allow the player to cast the spell in an afternoon.
Each casting is an event of epic proportions
with ramifications across Athas.
Overall length and weight are given for each level,
but the dragon’s coloration, scale distribution, facial
changes, posture, etc., are left to the player’s
imagination. The art in the DARK SUN™ boxed
set and this volume shows dragons in the middle
levels —use these for inspiration. At early stages of
metamorphosis, the dragon may still pass as human.
The Dragon of Tyr
The dragon listed in the DARK SUN boxed set
is a completely metamorphosed dragon of 30th
level. The great dragon is a ferocious creature with
tremendous psionic powers.
Because no contenders have challenged the authority
of the great dragon in many centuries, common
tradition has held that there is only one
dragon. In fact, there will be other wizards (both
dragons and preservers) advancing beyond 20th
level who will contest the great dragon’s control of
the Tyr region (perhaps the player characters themselves).
Also, because the Tyr Region is only a small
part of a much larger world, there are probably other
dragons extant in distant realms. Whether the
great dragon knows of other dragons or is oblivious
to them, no one can say.

Hope this helps ya in your conversion.

[Blayne]

I've started Rogers Training to be a CSR but I believe I have time now; so before we begin I would like us to figure out the ground rules for the encounter if your still interested.

[Solauren]

And would you like an impartial third party as referee?
(Yeah, I may think my stat up of Borys could wipe the floor with the canon version of 3.X Elminster, but that's my stat up)

[Aharon]

@Blayne
Sure, why not. What ground rules do you propose?

@Solauren
=> Referee
I'm fine with that.
=> Your version of Borys
As an alternative to my proposition, I would also be fine with your minimum configuration.