How powerful 'should' Superman be?

[Shannon]

Scenario: A soft reboot of the DCU is happening and you're involved. You have the job of setting the overall power level of the DCU. This is important, because whatever you decide will be implemented for both comics and all other media. Writers will be bound to follow your instructions - there will be no more making character X 'as strong as the story requires them to be.' Instead, a writer is given the character and told to tell the story, taking into account the character's clearly defined strengths and weaknesses. (I acknowledge that some people might not like this, but that's just the way it is.)

Superman is often regarded as the benchmark for power level in the DCU, so your instructions are to start with him. You are given the following parameters to operate within:
1. You must come up with a coherent theory of how his powers work that is both internally consistent and consistent with the wider DCU.
2. He cannot be any less powerful than the level displayed in the original Action Comics: More powerful than a locomotive, faster than a speeding bullet, able to leap 1/8th of a mile in a single bound and nothing less than a bursting shell can penetrate his skin.
3. You should use the classic vulnerability to Kryptonite, but it's up to you exactly how that works. Vulnerabilities to magic, red sun radiation and psionics are optional. If you use them, you can be creative, but they have to be consistent with rule #1.
4. He should be powerful enough that he can overcome any single other character if he works at it. He's the one who can rope rogue characters into line, but he's not unbeatable. In other words, he's at the top of the tree, usually the last one standing, but a group of peers or near-peers should be able to beat him if they're smart.
5. Following on from #4, you should define his level of power and skill in terms of how he compares to other characters. For example:

• Is he a good fighter? How good is he compared to Wonder Woman? Has he received formal training? Who from?

• How agile is he? More than human? More than (for example) Wonder Woman?

• Just how Strong is he? What's the greatest mass he can lift/move? If his powers are telekinetic, is he stronger in flight? How does he compare to a Green Lantern (and which one)? Can he break a GL's constructs? Remember that strength is the area where Superman traditionally excels.

• What's his endurance like? Can he operate for hours, days, weeks without the need to rest/refuel, or does he have a 'charge' like a Green Lantern? Does he need to breathe or eat or sleep?

• How intelligent is he? More or less so than Batman or Luthor? Does his speed give him increased thinking speed and/or learning speed?
  What's his willpower and resistance to mental attack like? Compare him to a GL or J'onn Jonnz.

• How fast is he? Faster than speeding bullet, but can he keep up with Flash on the ground? In the air, can he go supersonic or faster? If he can fly in space, can he go FTL? Are his reflexes comparable with his speed? Is he faster than Wonder Woman in that respect?

• How tough is he? Some iterations have had him flattened by high explosives and knocked out by nukes, others not so much. Sometimes he can be poisoned or sickened - or can he? Can he stand up to Darkseid's Omega Beams?

• How intense is his Heat Vision?

• What's the extent of his super-senses?

6. The power level should be set at such a level that it should not be terribly difficult to find ways to challenge him.

That should be plenty to be going on with. Have fun!

[Gandalf]

Without getting into the exact gigajoule calcs of it all, Superman should be invulnerable to anything contemporary Earth can throw at him. Alien things should cause trouble, so it's where Superman can stand between Earth and an angry cosmos. Slightly sharper than the average human, but nothing really special.

But this is all based on how I see the character; a guy from an idealised America who happens to be a god. The physical challenges are meaningless, and the moral and ethical ones are what matter. Can he kill Luthor? Certainly. Should he do it? There's the dilemma. He'd be saving pain and suffering in the long term, but also he would be judge, jury, and executioner.

I may have other thoughts later.

[Batman]

Good luck with #1. Unless we completely ditch the 'works on sunlight' approach, not gonna happen.
Nobody (including the people at DC) seems to know how exactly his magic vulnerability works. He's gone toe to toe with Captain Marvel...excuse me,Shazam on numerous occasions, the myriad of magic users in the DCU have NOT just wished him out of existence (despite the fact that some should have the power to do so).
Clark may be near the top of the totem pole for sheer physical strength, but power-wise he's at best upper-end midrange. Remember DC has creatures like Doctor Fate, the Spectre and the Phantom Stranger. Or the now (hopefully permanently) deceased Anti-Monitor and Imperiex.
I'd like to have the red sun issue made more coherent. So far it seems to yo-yo between 'red sun=no more powers', 'red sun= he's running on batteries' and 'Red sun=it's batteries and they're draining fast if he uses powers'. And we should probably establish how different suns affect his powers. Are yellow suns the 'only' ones that work? Would he become invincible around a blue supergiant? What about a white dwarf?
(Aside:If I'm oh so intelligent how come I din't pay Wally (or whoever the duty Speedster is these days) a paltry million or so once every 2 weeks to spend the 45 seconds or so it'd take them to clean out all street crime in Gotham?)
Modern kryptonite seems to work like some weird kind of 'no permanent damage if the exposure stops before death' radiation poisoning, and seems to be relatively consistent about that. I'd keep it. Just no more rainbow kryptonite. Keep the basic green stuff, MAYBE the gold (and explain HOW it permanently depowers Kryptonians) and leave it at that.
As for strength, no more 'avoid asteroid impact by shoving Earth out of the way' stunts. I'm cool with everything short of that- He IS fucking Superman.
Unless you want to ditch space adventures he has to be FTL and no need to breathe, or put him back in space suits/vehicles(like the Timmverse initially did).

[Lost Soal]

Good luck with #1. Unless we completely ditch the 'works on sunlight' approach, not gonna happen.
Nobody (including the people at DC) seems to know how exactly his magic vulnerability works. He's gone toe to toe with Captain Marvel...excuse me,Shazam on numerous occasions, the myriad of magic users in the DCU have NOT just wished him out of existence (despite the fact that some should have the power to do so).
Clark may be near the top of the totem pole for sheer physical strength, but power-wise he's at best upper-end midrange. Remember DC has creatures like Doctor Fate, the Spectre and the Phantom Stranger. Or the now (hopefully permanently) deceased Anti-Monitor and Imperiex.

Thats all really due to writing. He is far more powerful than he's generally shown because he
a) holds back. He rarely exerts his full strength because he doesn't want to kill anyone (Sentient at least, parademons and the like he doesn't seem to care.
b) tends to use only 1 power at a time. People he goes toe to toe with in a punch out he could beat if he used his speed fully and so on.

(Aside:If I'm oh so intelligent how come I din't pay Wally (or whoever the duty Speedster is these days) a paltry million or so once every 2 weeks to spend the 45 seconds or so it'd take them to clean out all street crime in Gotham?)

He can't do that in his own city, why should Gotham be different.
As for thinking speed, just like Flash if he doesn't have the hightened perceptions he wouldn't be able to operate at any real speed without slamming face first into every obstacle.

As for strength, no more 'avoid asteroid impact by shoving Earth out of the way' stunts. I'm cool with everything short of that- He IS fucking Superman.

So Superman 4 pushing the moon around is fine then.

[Batman]

Bringing up Superman 4 is a hanging offense.

[GuppyShark]

I'm bored so I'll give this a crack.

I don't think 'power level' is a thing so I'd probably in this scenario be reprimanded for telling my bosses to take a hike and focus on telling actual stories. Nobody asks what <random movie/tv protagonist>'s power level is, but they also always win.

Point 5:

Superman should be a skilled combatant, but not formally trained. He'll have gotten advice from Batman, Wonder Woman, etc. But nobody teaches Kryptonian hand-to-hand combat last time I checked. Diana would be a good sparring partner but sparring is all that would be.

Agility wise, of course Supes is faster than a speeding bullet. Flash realising Superman can see him move is one of the best scenes in Justice League.

How strong? Yeah, I like the Lantern comparisons, that's my wheelhouse. He should trivially dispatch most of them, except Kyle or Hal. Those should be heavyweight bouts decided by external factors.

Endurance. No strong opinions, as long as he can fly off and soak up some sun and recharge.

Intelligence. He's supposed to be super-smart, too. I don't want him reduced to a thug that just punches things. That defeats the point of the character to me.

The other questions seem redundant after the above.

[Solauren]

General note – Most super powers will be magical or psionic in nature, even strength. More powerful psionics/magic neutralizes the other, and weaken themselves to that level to make the difference. So a ’10 point shield’, would reduce a ’12 point punch’ to ‘2 points vs unshielded’
Psionics/magic are cause muscle strength development to be gender neutral, even if the appearance of the muscle stays their base sex.
So despite not being a hulking monster, Wonder Woman could still be as strong as Superman. (see below)

Supermans Powers -
Kryptonians are actually a genetically engineered race. They were originally near-humans that crashed on Krypton. Krypton had one of the harshest environments and ecosystems in the universe. (With maybe a dozen that were worse, including Apocalypse).

Being slowly crushed by Kryptons gravity (x3 earth), and very harsh ecology (think Earth at 3G, but with functioning Dinosaurs and high atmospheric preasure, and worse), they turned to studying the planets lifeforms to try to adapt. They found some plants that appeared virtually unadapted to the planet, but still thrived, and isolated the DNA involved.

The plant was actually powerfully psionic (something this race had no experience with), converting energy from the Phantom Zone into psionics via a hybrid digestive-photosyntheric reaction, but all power turned inwards. The process constantly attracts Phantom Zone energy into the environment, that actually bleeds off just as quickly.

Under Kryptons red-sun, it’s photosynthesis converted just enough psionic power for the plant to survive on Krypton. The new Kryptonians were the same way, now able to function on Kryptons gravity and fight back against the predators.

Therefore, supermans powers are fueled by solar radiation turning Phantom Zone energy into psionic energy, via an advanced alien form of photosynthesis. In solar systems with younger, more energetic stars, he’s stronger, faster, and more powerful. Around older stars, he loses his powers as he burns through stored energy.

It’s also why he loses his power in the Phantom Zone. No solar energy, and he’s inside part of his power source. In theory, a Kryptonian that absorbed enough Phantom Zone energy and then received a big charge of solar radition would ‘recharge’ very quickly.

Magic affects him because it’s actually a differently processed form of Phantom Zone energy.

Kryptonite radiation includes large amounts of poisoned/corrupted Phantom Zone energy, and that’s why it hurts Superman – his body is trying to force the corrupted energy out, which is painful. If drains of all solar energy, Kryptonite radition might not actually hurt him. Prolonged exposure to Kryptonite while charged, however, will.

The photosynthetic element of Supermans biologic is why Poison Ivy's kiss will work on him.

Power level -
Supermans powers started as a teenager, and will start more or less at the level shown at the end of the Smallville TV series (minus the pushing a planet away from Earth at 1/10th the speed of light!). However, his Superman ‘s power level will increase over time as hes exposed and stores more solar radiation, and gains confidence in them.
Starting Power level - 300 kmph running speed, Mach 10 flight, Space flight, Heat vision, etc. He’ll be weaker then people with those powers as specialities, but he will eventually surpass them. In the meantime, against Rogues, it will be combined powers and intelligence that will beat them.

#5 – Power Comparisons
Fighter skill - Since strength, speed, and endurance were just at ‘high end farm boy that also works out’, he was in Jr High, and High school sports.

This included Boxing, American Football, Baseball, and a most track and field sports. He has some martial arts training (blocking and dodging, a few throws) as he didn’t start MA Training until some of his powers were getting dangerous. He mostly learned that to make people stop asking why he stopped boxing (after he got into a fist fight, missed a punch he didn’t pull, and shattered a tree. The other fighter was drunk and thinks a bolt of lightning hit).

At first he’ll come off as a bit of a brawler as a result, mostly because he doesn’t need to use his Boxing skills or limited martial arts skills. He’ll break them out when used. (Batman would figure out he’s holding back).

Agility – He’s above human level, and will grow. Upper 20% of the heroes for that to start. (Wonder Woman would be upper 2%)
So he can 'dance' with most characters, even if they are better at it then him.

Strength Level – Superman will start out knowing he can pick up trains and the like without a problem, and if he pushes himself, can pick up and move more. As he fights stronger targets, he’ll figure out his strength has no limits beyond his energy reserves.

Endurance – He doesn’t’ need to sleep as long as he gets enough sunlight or time under hydroponics lamps and the like. (Under dimmer starts, he needs to sleep).
He needs to breath, but in Earths solar system, he can hold his breath for hours on end as his powers recycle his breath. However, even it has limits. For extended space operations, he needs a air supply. However, a 2 hour diving tank would last him about a week if he has enough food.

He still needs to eat. If he was of mind, he could have his own ‘food challenge youtube challenge’. However, instead of being stored as fat, excess chemical energy is used by his psionics to process more Phantom Zone energy. Normal calorie intact is sufficient for him to function normally, even with his powers.

Speed – Already stated, but eventually he’ll realize his limits are entirely pschological and what energy he has exposure too. If he wanted to do high end FTL, if he dived through a young blue Supergiant star first, he could cross the universe in a matter of days. His reflexes and mental processing time accelerate to accomidate his speed.

Mental abilities – While not a genius, he’s above average intelligence. Again, higher levels of solar radiation boost his mind.
He can speed read, but unless he's also moving at super speeds, it gives him a headache after the third 'pocket novel'. He also enjoys reading at 'normal speeds'.

Toughness - To start - No real world human weapons can hurt him, short of nuclear weapons. Alien tech using energy can. Magic and Psionics work normally on him.
Example - If Wonder Woman uses a normal sword on him, it won’t hurt him. However, if Wonder Woman decks him, their powers cancel each other, so it would be like a high end boxer decking a high end boxer.

Heat Vision – it would start out able to blast apart missiles in a few seconds. It will eventually reach Star Trek Phaser level (as shown on screen).

Super senses – if he lets himself, he can hear anything in a given atmosphere up to the size of Jupiter. His sight is still limited to the horizon.
Super visual senses have a limited range of about 1 mile at sea level, but several light seconds in space. This increases with time and power storage.


Just a general idea. He starts off 'above average superhero' with 'farmboy values', until eventually Darkseid is cautious fighting him.

[Lord Revan]

When it comes to Superman's intellect I'd say he should be smart but not very cunning or capable of thinking outside the box. This would allow people like Lex Luthor or Batman be "smarter" then Superman without Superman being stupid.

[Broomstick]

Superman should be a skilled combatant, but not formally trained. He'll have gotten advice from Batman, Wonder Woman, etc. But nobody teaches Kryptonian hand-to-hand combat last time I checked.

You forgot Muhammed Ali:

[Crazedwraith]

Superman should be a skilled combatant, but not formally trained. He'll have gotten advice from Batman, Wonder Woman, etc. But nobody teaches Kryptonian hand-to-hand combat last time I checked.

You forgot Muhammed Ali:

If I recall the "Atop The Fourth Wall" review of that correctly they did something very sensible in that comic. Supes took Ali the the Fortress of Solitude and had him train him in boxing while under Red sun radiation so he was powerless and could learn correctly. I think there was also some kind of time stop equipment as well so they had a long time to train before their match with an alien boxing champion or something.

[GuppyShark]

Which will serve him well if he's depowered or body swapped or something. But he's Kryptonian, not human. He's had to learn how to fight like Superman by fighting like Superman.

[Crazedwraith]

Which will serve him well if he's depowered or body swapped or something. But he's Kryptonian, not human. He's had to learn how to fight like Superman by fighting like Superman.

Throwing a punch is throwing a punch whatever the species. Kyptonians are human enough that the same principles apply. Having superpowers gives him additional options sure. He'd need to learn how to work flight/heat vision/cold breath in to his fighting style but human martials arts is a perfectly fine baseline. Technique serves you well super powers or not, especially if you run into someone with a similar power level and more skilled technique. e.g.) Thanos vs Hulk in Avengers: Infinity War as a recent example.

There's no downside to learn though out of universe you might want him not to learn for Cast Speciation reasons and you can find reasonable in-universe explanations at least early on in his career. (no time, no one he trusts to teach him, doesn't want to be a fighter etc) but the longer his career the more he should pick up stuff.

[Batman]

He can learn the bare bones, but there's at least initially nobody he can fight against where he can use his power to full extent. Learning human martial arts doesn't work when everybody he punches dissapears into a rapidly expanding cloud of red mist. Against human opponents, he can only learn how to fight as if he 'weren't Superman.

[Crazedwraith]

He can learn the bare bones, but there's at least initially nobody he can fight against where he can use his power to full extent. Learning human martial arts doesn't work when everybody he punches dissapears into a rapidly expanding cloud of red mist. Against human opponents, he can only learn how to fight as if he 'weren't Superman.

Hence as I mentioned the Red sun enclosure in the Ali. I believe I read that Power Girl exercises under red sun as well as increase in muscle mass under red sun leads to great improvements when strength is multiplied under a yellow sun. (Or was it She-Hulk exercising unpowered? I don't recall but principle still applies.)

That said, no-one learns or practises martials arts using their full strength if Clark can control himself well enough to function in the world without accidently crushing things/people he can learn martial arts and plus the same objection of finding someone tough to practise with applies if he fight like a human or 'like superman' anyway.

[Solauren]

Hence as I mentioned the Red sun enclosure in the Ali. I believe I read that Power Girl exercises under red sun as well as increase in muscle mass under red sun leads to great improvements when strength is multiplied under a yellow sun. (Or was it She-Hulk exercising unpowered? I don't recall but principle still applies.)

That said, no-one learns or practises martials arts using their full strength if Clark can control himself well enough to function in the world without accidently crushing things/people he can learn martial arts and plus the same objection of finding someone tough to practise with applies if he fight like a human or 'like superman' anyway.

The Supergirl clone from Justice League unlimited trained under the same principals I believe.

[Ralin]

Throwing a punch is throwing a punch whatever the species. Kyptonians are human enough that the same principles apply

But the footwork and stance that goes into throwing a good punch wouldn't translate cleanly to someone who doesn't need to stand on a solid surface when he's throwing a punch and is frequently hovering in mid-air when he does so. A human boxer doesn't need to worry about slamming his foot through a sidewalk if he flexes or braces himself the wrong way when he throws a punch. Principles based on the understanding that the mechanics of the human body are basically the same everywhere are going to have issues when applied to someone who interacts with the world differently, and could be counterproductive if it leads to Clark reflexively throwing a human punch instead of a Superman punch in a fight

[Solauren]

Those problems would be interesting to explore as Superman's career progressed to super-powered threats and into new environments.

Properly done, the potential for character growth and story telling as superman learns and his powers grow is there.

[Gandalf]

That's something that would have fit in the recent Snyder films, where he grows up in a normal human existence, and doesn't meet any real peer until he's actively Supermanning.

There's no reason for him to have any fight technique whatsoever. His sheer strength should mean that until it comes time to fight Zod or whatever, he might be throwing punches with his thumb in his fist. People learn to fight for various reasons, none of which apply to young Clark Kent.

[Solauren]

That's something that would have fit in the recent Snyder films, where he grows up in a normal human existence, and doesn't meet any real peer until he's actively Supermanning.

There's no reason for him to have any fight technique whatsoever. His sheer strength should mean that until it comes time to fight Zod or whatever, he might be throwing punches with his thumb in his fist. People learn to fight for various reasons, none of which apply to young Clark Kent.

That really depends on the people around him. As in his community.

We've seen instances where he's got bully problems has a kid to young man. Depending on how bad, it might be worth him learning how to fight (and control his strength), to get them to back down before one of them does something to him that reveals his powers in a public way.

Nothing screams 'not normal', then say, a bully swinging something at you and it shattered on impact with your body. (i.e Lacross stick, Hockey stick, wooden baseball bat). Nothing makes you feel guiltier then a bully doing something like that to you, figuring it doesn't really hurt people, and then the next person he hits causes long-term damage too.

Clark learning how to fight, even if he doesn't need to physically, makes him less likely to be 'bully-prey'. And that actually protects his secret.

[Ralin]

He'd probably be a lot more likely to learn the basics of wrestling and grappling than throwing a punch, come to think of it (as a young man). Easier to maintain control of his strength than with a punch, and easier to pass off a submission hold as normal than a one punch knockout.

[Batman]

Don't those kinds of playground/schoolyard scuffles usually devolve into wrestling anyway?

[Solauren]

Don't those kinds of playground/schoolyard scuffles usually devolve into wrestling anyway?

Only if they are evenly matched. I only ever ended up one fight that turned into a wrestling match. Most of them ended with my or the other guy on the ground with a bloody nose or black eye, or teacher intervention.

Of course, I admit, I might be the exception to that general rule.

[Ralin]

And it's in-character for a Clark who mainly expects to be dealing with humans where his biggest issue is knowing how to restrain or otherwise deal with them without hurting anyone. Would also scale up decently when he starts dealing with superhumans.

[Solauren]

That's why I had him learning stuff like boxing, etc, until he nearly hurt someone, and then he focused on more defensive stuff.

He''d have a good foundation to work with, and he could improve/grow as needed.

Also, let's face facts - most of his super powered opponents have traditionally been brawlers, and a good boxer can stop a brawler provided it doesn't turn into a a true brawl. (most brawls start as fist fights)