Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness

[KraytKing]

Jesus Christ, that movie was a mess. I would have walked out if I didn't love to hate movies so much. Opening the way it does with a high-stakes fight is always a tough sell, since the audience hasn't really had time to get in the mood and actually GIVE it stakes, but that one was well justified by being revealed as "just a dream." But they didn't let up! Every act has repeated huge, climactic fights, and it's impossible to just get a fucking BREATH. The battle of Kamar-Taj would have been the film-ending final battle in any well-paced movie, but we got it in the first act. We got snippets of character development here and there between these huge CGI battles, but not nearly as much as we needed.

Anyone else notice that Christine Palmer's husband is a black guy? He barely appears in only two shots. That part really pissed me off. Of {i]course[/i] the white guy gets his white girlfriend stolen by a black man, or so might the incel Marvel fanbase think. Did the writers deliberately support replacement theory or did they just faceplant in the middle of some token diversity? I feel like it's the second one, just because he is so tenuously in the movie, it feels like Disney is embarrassed about their interracial marriage.

Wanda becoming the villain is the subject of a movie, not something that happens in between. Maybe I would be more okay with it if I hadn't skipped WandaVision. I agree with other users that it was a sensible move in-universe, though I can also agree with the ghost of TRR that of course it's one of the very few women in the Avengers who gets so wrapped up in her children that she becomes a mass murderer. I never liked Scarlet Witch or Dr Strange, because of the power disparity between them and the other Avengers and because the aesthetic of straight-up magic doesn't really blend well with the tone of the early MCU, so I would have been okay if the story had been about the corruption of BOTH of them, and then Wanda redeems herself at the last second and they both die anyway.

One of the few things I liked was the last act, when Wanda finds her mountain temple (aesthetically cool as shit) and when Strange astrally projects into a zombie and unlocks demon magic. Magic fights were boring before the end of the first act; ooh look, they did ANOTHER batshit-crazy thing with sparks. It was getting hard to appreciate what was going on, it was all just big and loud and flashy. But the demons were new. If Strange had just pulled out another spell, one might wonder why he hadn't used that earlier, but this was refreshing. I think they both should have died, though. They make it clear from the first three-eyed Dr Strange alternate that once you touch the dark magic, it never lets you go; I thought the obvious move was that both of those who messed with it would kill themselves, knowing there was no other way to keep everyone safe.

The mirror dimension exploit in the beginning, when Wanda can come out of reflections, was super cool. It would have been cooler if it had some fucking stakes in it though, and wasn't part of a pell-mell rush through jarringly massive setpieces too early in the movie. Also, why did that room have so many damn puddles?

When Chavez unlocks her powers at the end of the movie, it's weird to me that they include super punching. Why does she get power fists? Why does EVERY hero have to be able to punch really hard and take hits? Her power is opening portals and that's it. I'm glad that she didn't defeat Wanda martially but it was dumb that she tried. From a writer's perspective, of course, not in-universe.

[Broomstick]

Jesus Christ, that movie was a mess... [snip]... We got snippets of character development here and there between these huge CGI battles, but not nearly as much as we needed.

24 years on from Ironman and people are still shocked, shocked that MCU movies are mostly bright lights and fights rather than deep character development?

Anyone else notice that Christine Palmer's husband is a black guy?

Yes. And...so what?

Of {i]course[/i] the white guy gets his white girlfriend stolen by a black man, or so might the incel Marvel fanbase think. Did the writers deliberately support replacement theory or did they just faceplant in the middle of some token diversity?

Not every inter-racial relationship is a Big Deal, nor does it have to be. Marvel has a had a recent history of changing the race and/or gender of characters for no other reason than just "because" or "why not?". Hence Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury. Jessica Jones was getting fucked up the ass by Luke Cage in the comics long before the Netflix series danced around it. Hell, in Loki they even have a variation of the main character where the species is different.

I am really wondering what sort of headspace YOU are operating out of that on seeing Christine Palmer marry a black man your first thought is "replacement theory". WTF, man. Strange is the one who ran off to goddamned Tibet, Palmer dating then marrying someone else isn't "replacing" Strange, it's getting on with her life.

Maybe I would be more okay with it if I hadn't skipped WandaVision.

While I am not happy at the notion that we're now moving into a time when you have to have seen prior Marvel stuff to understand WTF is happening in the current productions we have, in fact, moved to that time. Skipping WandaVision seriously impairs your ability to understand why Wanda is a villain here. Let me sum it up for you: in WandaVision Wanda kidnaps and mind-rapes an entire town to appease her grief and gets away with it with no meaningful consequences. She became the bad guy before the movie started.

I never liked Scarlet Witch or Dr Strange, because of the power disparity between them and the other Avengers and because the aesthetic of straight-up magic doesn't really blend well with the tone of the early MCU, so I would have been okay if the story had been about the corruption of BOTH of them, and then Wanda redeems herself at the last second and they both die anyway.

I am now sitting here wondering why, if you never liked either Dr. Strange or the Scarlet Witch you'd go see a movie about the two of them. I mean, I hate and loathe the Punisher, I have not watched the TV series, nor would watch a movie where he is the "hero". If you don't like the protagonists why are you going to the movie?

One of the few things I liked was the last act, when Wanda finds her mountain temple (aesthetically cool as shit) and when Strange astrally projects into a zombie and unlocks demon magic.

Yes, that was one of the better parts of the movie.

[KraytKing]

24 years on from Ironman and people are still shocked, shocked that MCU movies are mostly bright lights and fights rather than deep character development?

Nah, that's in bad faith. Movies can have massive CGI battles and still be coherent, like Endgame, and they can have massive CGI battles and still be good, like Guardians 1. They can also have an ounce of character, like either of those movies and most of the others.

Anyone else notice that Christine Palmer's husband is a black guy?

Yes. And...so what?

Don't you fucking quote mine me. This goes together with the next sentence.

Of {i]course[/i] the white guy gets his white girlfriend stolen by a black man, or so might the incel Marvel fanbase think. Did the writers deliberately support replacement theory or did they just faceplant in the middle of some token diversity?

Not every inter-racial relationship is a Big Deal, nor does it have to be. Marvel has a had a recent history of changing the race and/or gender of characters for no other reason than just "because" or "why not?". Hence Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury. Jessica Jones was getting fucked up the ass by Luke Cage in the comics long before the Netflix series danced around it. Hell, in Loki they even have a variation of the main character where the species is different.

I am really wondering what sort of headspace YOU are operating out of that on seeing Christine Palmer marry a black man your first thought is "replacement theory". WTF, man. Strange is the one who ran off to goddamned Tibet, Palmer dating then marrying someone else isn't "replacing" Strange, it's getting on with her life.

In fairness, I had gone down a hellish rabbit hole of racist incel memes JUST before watching the movie, so that might be why it was on my mind.

I think it's weird that you have to defend interracial marriage in the movie. It's been a thing for decades, I agree with you that it should just be part of life. It is weird that Christine's husband, who is important to Strange's character arc, is at no point directly referenced as such. It would have been fine if we got a shot of the altar or something else unequivocal, but there were only two shots: Christine dancing with a guy in a suit (other people were dancing too, it wasn't the first dance) and then same suit guy runs up next to her when all the guests look out the window. It would have been very, very easy to make it clear, so why didn't they?

Replacement theory is a little in vogue right now, if you hadn't noticed. It was simply the thorniest spot to put one of a small number of non-white characters. Dr Strange obviously FEELS replaced, even though he ran off to Tibet. Someone who feels replaced is going to notice this and take it as vindication, that black people are stealing white women from everyone and it isn't his fault. That's exaggerated, but still, it's kind of the job of writers to pay attention to their implications.

While I am not happy at the notion that we're now moving into a time when you have to have seen prior Marvel stuff to understand WTF is happening in the current productions we have, in fact, moved to that time. Skipping WandaVision seriously impairs your ability to understand why Wanda is a villain here. Let me sum it up for you: in WandaVision Wanda kidnaps and mind-rapes an entire town to appease her grief and gets away with it with no meaningful consequences. She became the bad guy before the movie started.

Why did Strange seem to think she was a good guy then? I already knew as much as you've just told me, but I thought it must have gotten wrapped up and Wanda redeemed since Strange trusted her for a second. And they also spent a lot of screen time explaining why she was the bad guy if it was already true. Not enough to be a full arc, but too much for an arc already completed.

I never liked Scarlet Witch or Dr Strange, because of the power disparity between them and the other Avengers and because the aesthetic of straight-up magic doesn't really blend well with the tone of the early MCU, so I would have been okay if the story had been about the corruption of BOTH of them, and then Wanda redeems herself at the last second and they both die anyway.

I am now sitting here wondering why, if you never liked either Dr. Strange or the Scarlet Witch you'd go see a movie about the two of them. I mean, I hate and loathe the Punisher, I have not watched the TV series, nor would watch a movie where he is the "hero". If you don't like the protagonists why are you going to the movie?

I was a little unclear. I dislike them when they mix with other heroes. Watching a fight that involves Dr Strange manipulating time and reality while Captain America...punches...things is a little jarring. It doesn't HAVE to be jarring, but the big Marvel fights always go the same way and have all the heroes fight expendable bad guys. Seeing them in their own movies is much better. I thought the characters might have potential, and I was a little bit right: I had hoped a former hero would become the bad guy, and I expected it to be Wanda in light of her TV show.

Also a bunch of friends were seeing the movie, and boy do I love to hate movies. So. That's why I saw it.

[Broomstick]

24 years on from Ironman and people are still shocked, shocked that MCU movies are mostly bright lights and fights rather than deep character development?

Nah, that's in bad faith. Movies can have massive CGI battles and still be coherent, like Endgame, and they can have massive CGI battles and still be good, like Guardians 1. They can also have an ounce of character, like either of those movies and most of the others.

I am pleasantly surprised when MCU movies have character development. I don't really expect it.

I think it's weird that you have to defend interracial marriage in the movie. It's been a thing for decades, I agree with you that it should just be part of life. It is weird that Christine's husband, who is important to Strange's character arc, is at no point directly referenced as such. It would have been fine if we got a shot of the altar or something else unequivocal, but there were only two shots: Christine dancing with a guy in a suit (other people were dancing too, it wasn't the first dance) and then same suit guy runs up next to her when all the guests look out the window. It would have been very, very easy to make it clear, so why didn't they?

I didn't have any problem reading the scene. If Palmer's new husband is peripheral to the scene it's because he's peripheral to the story. For that matter, that version of Christine is peripheral to the story.

Replacement theory is a little in vogue right now, if you hadn't noticed.

Just a bit. One of the survivors of the Philadelphia synagogue shooting is part of my social circle, I see him a few times a year, not to mention the active shooter drills I get to take part in both where I work and at one of the social centers I go to weekly or more often.

Dr Strange obviously FEELS replaced, even though he ran off to Tibet. Someone who feels replaced is going to notice this and take it as vindication, that black people are stealing white women from everyone and it isn't his fault. That's exaggerated, but still, it's kind of the job of writers to pay attention to their implications.

Maybe we shouldn't be altering our entertainment to appease incels and racists.

People move on from relationships. By your reasoning ANYONE who married Palmer would be "replacing" Strange regardless of race, gender, or species.

Why did Strange seem to think she was a good guy then? I already knew as much as you've just told me, but I thought it must have gotten wrapped up and Wanda redeemed since Strange trusted her for a second. And they also spent a lot of screen time explaining why she was the bad guy if it was already true. Not enough to be a full arc, but too much for an arc already completed.

Or maybe the scriptwriters were aware not everyone who saw their movie would have seen WandaVision? Also, the movie was pretty much entirely re-written and re-shot at one point, Cumberbatch said the only thing not changes from the original concept was the title.

I was a little unclear. I dislike them when they mix with other heroes.

Oh, OK. That makes a bit more sense.

Also a bunch of friends were seeing the movie, and boy do I love to hate movies. So. That's why I saw it.

Again, that makes a bit more sense.

[Crazedwraith]

While I am not happy at the notion that we're now moving into a time when you have to have seen prior Marvel stuff to understand WTF is happening in the current productions we have, in fact, moved to that time. Skipping WandaVision seriously impairs your ability to understand why Wanda is a villain here. Let me sum it up for you: in WandaVision Wanda kidnaps and mind-rapes an entire town to appease her grief and gets away with it with no meaningful consequences. She became the bad guy before the movie started.

That is a technically correct but kind of biased summary and not the reason the movie gives for Wanda's evilness.

I saw WandaVision it doesn't explain MoM to me in the slightest.

For example in the movie she's willing to mass murder anyone getting in between her and "her" kids. In WandaVision she kills Vision and those same kids rather than continue torturing people when it becomes clear to her that's what she's doing. She's in masses and masses of denial and is have a mental breakdown but is not actively malicious. (YMMV)

The film just says she read the darkhold and is now no longer Wanda but the Scarlet Witch (Seriously Strange phrases like they're two different people) and that's why she's now a mass murdering supervillian. Even if you've seen WandaVision I'd say the change is extreme and jarring between her two appearances. From conflicted anti-villain in WV to out and out supervillian in MoM.

[Crazedwraith]

On a tangential note apparently there was a lot of troubles with the production due to covid etc and there were rewrites during it to the point Cumberbatch and Olsen have said the title was about the only thing that didn't change. Sam Raimi apparently didn't know anything about WandaVision until most of the way through production which explains why they don't line up from a doylist perspective anyway.

[Gandalf]

She's in masses and masses of denial and is have a mental breakdown but is not actively malicious. (YMMV)

Given the justifications Wanda offered about how she gave people better lives, I'd argue that the actions were still malicious. She knew she was mind raping people, but that she was just unaware of the full scale of the damage she was inflicting. The victims were self aware, much to her chagrin.

[Crazedwraith]

okay this went a little off the rails as I wrote it. Apologies Gandalf.

She's in masses and masses of denial and is have a mental breakdown but is not actively malicious. (YMMV)

Given the justifications Wanda offered about how she gave people better lives, I'd argue that the actions were still malicious. She knew she was mind raping people, but that she was just unaware of the full scale of the damage she was inflicting. The victims were self aware, much to her chagrin.

I mean, the fact she was thinking she was giving people better lives kind of speaks to the not malicious but still extremely deluded? The scene that's telling for me is the flashback to watching sitcoms with Vision, the guy has stuff dropped on him that would serious injure in real life but 'it's not that kind of show'. She thinks everyone loves being trapped in a hunkdory safe sitcom world. She's very wrong of course. (especially since everyone else are side characters). She's not trying to cause harm per se.

I see your point though she was at least knowingly keeping people under the hex's control even though she didn't deliberately start it up. I'm not saying that's good or moral.

I don't particularly like it but it's a fair point from Wanda's detractors that she was always willing to cause a certain amount of death and destruction in her goals (particularly causing Hulk's rampage) but regrets in when coming directly faced with it. (AOU in Sokovia, the bomb in lagos, the end of WV and her kids in MoM) MoM just ups the ante by having now will to directly horribly murderize people for her goals.

I'd prefer her not be stuck in that cycle though, or at least a hint from the film that that cycle is consciously being invoked by it and little more about the process of how she got corrupted by the darkhold wouldn't hurt either.

Like I don't know how much is just my assumption but the stinger of WandaVision implied it was her actual kids she created in the main 'verse that were out there and in need of rescuing. That would be a powerful motivator for her to try something and then if people didn't want to let for the good of the multiverse and so on, then she could go out of control. Like the way Stephen says in MoM; "They weren't real" to her. That's a trigger. But in the film she's just super evil from the start. We seem to have missed a lot of the slide down there. (It would work if Stephen's dickish at least partly makes it worse as character development to be nice to Chavez but he seems to have already got that down from NWH)

I guess maybe the book just lured her in with the 'her actual kids' thing and then just kept showing her all the versions of her that have it better than her to fuel the resentment and slide but again the film barely hints at it. I am right in her saying all the other hers in the multiverse had it better? Or am I getting confused with the bit about all the Stephen's not getting with Christine.

But all that would have burned up a lot of time at the start of the film of course. Knowing about Wanda from spoilers, I assumed she was going to keep the good act going a lot longer and manipulate things more subtlety rather than letting it slip half way through her first scene. Ah well.

[Solauren]

Upon reflection ,the Darkhold was clearly a trap.

I wouldn't be surprised if the artwork within the Darkhold building was enchanted in someway to reflect on the most powerful person that entered it. (in this case, Wanda).

It apparently screws with everyones head (including Wanda, several versions of Dr. Strange, and everything one of the copies did in Agents of Shield). Very demonic of it.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the method of Dreamwalking (and other methods in the book that Wanda simply hadn't gotten to yet), were designed to weaken the walls between universes to cause incursions. Incursions the demon behind the Darkhold (or other demons) could use to their advantage.

I mean, it's not like we know where the material, or souls, etc, from those colliding/disintegrating universes end up, is it?

[FaxModem1]

Maybe I would be more okay with it if I hadn't skipped WandaVision.

While I am not happy at the notion that we're now moving into a time when you have to have seen prior Marvel stuff to understand WTF is happening in the current productions we have, in fact, moved to that time. Skipping WandaVision seriously impairs your ability to understand why Wanda is a villain here. Let me sum it up for you: in WandaVision Wanda kidnaps and mind-rapes an entire town to appease her grief and gets away with it with no meaningful consequences. She became the bad guy before the movie started.

I never liked Scarlet Witch or Dr Strange, because of the power disparity between them and the other Avengers and because the aesthetic of straight-up magic doesn't really blend well with the tone of the early MCU, so I would have been okay if the story had been about the corruption of BOTH of them, and then Wanda redeems herself at the last second and they both die anyway.

I am now sitting here wondering why, if you never liked either Dr. Strange or the Scarlet Witch you'd go see a movie about the two of them. I mean, I hate and loathe the Punisher, I have not watched the TV series, nor would watch a movie where he is the "hero". If you don't like the protagonists why are you going to the movie?

She's in masses and masses of denial and is have a mental breakdown but is not actively malicious. (YMMV)

Given the justifications Wanda offered about how she gave people better lives, I'd argue that the actions were still malicious. She knew she was mind raping people, but that she was just unaware of the full scale of the damage she was inflicting. The victims were self aware, much to her chagrin.

I think both of y'all are being way too hard on Wanda here. Wanda did not create the Hex on purpose, didn't know what she was doing to the people of Westview, and was in a state of denial about what was going on for most of the series. Even when she is gaining some idea of what's going on, is either attacked or gaslit, making her retreat back into her fantasy.

As CrazedWraith rightly points out, when confronted with the fact that she's hurting people, she immediately releases them, at the cost of her family. That is in no way malicious.

Viewing her actions as malicious ignores how she is seeming to be in a state of denial in Wandavision and ignorance about what's going on, and anytime someone is trying to awaken her from her fantasy, they're either interrupted by Agatha(like when FakePietro arrives at the door when Vision is making her consider what's going on), causing her to be distracted, or physically threatened by Hayward(when Monica is talking via drone, Hayward uses it to shoot at Wanda and her kids), meaning Wanda has to go into a fight or flight response.

[Broomstick]

Here's the problem:

If my husband dies and I slip into a delusional fantasy the damage I can do is very limited. Absolute worst case I could harm myself to the point of death, or maybe (through burning down the building I live in, or going on a murder spree) take a couple dozen other people with me.

If Wanda enters into a delusional fantasy she can warp reality, mind-rape a town, and damn little to nothing can stop her. And that's not even the worst thing that could happen.

MAYBE if Wanda had stuck around, tried somehow to atone for the pain she caused, did something other than run off to study the Big Book of Evil in seclusion that might have changed things but she didn't. The townspeople might not have wanted her around, but she might have been able to do something from afar. Or gone off to do something to benefit someone else, to, as Black Widow put it, try to balance the red in her ledger.

When you fuck up really badly, intentional or not, what matters is how you handle that. "Oh, wow, I totally fucked up and I'm sorry is there anything I can do to fix this or make it less bad" is a lot different than "Oh, wow, I totally fucked up and I'm sorry but I'm going to go off and hide now because I can't/won't face the consequences". Maybe Wanda didn't intend to make her first Hex, or have any control over it, but she did control how she handled it at the end. And it really wasn't to her credit.

And what did she do in seclusion? Make another Hex, one which, it was revealed, was a lot more damaging and corrosive than the first. Yeah, tip off early on that she didn't really learn anything from Westville to set her on a different track.

Want to stop Wanda's slide into villainhood? Immediately after WandaVision she's confronted by Dr. Strange who takes her on as apprentice and tries to instill some morality as well as control into her. Except I don't think Steven Strange could pull that off given his own flaws.

[Crazedwraith]

Wanda's power levels has nothing to do with how culpable for her actions she is when in the middle of a breakdown.

Sure, just not doing to the evil thing anymore isn't really redemption as she doesn't do anything to make or receive any consequences. Though any consequence as you could only be delivered if she consented. Ideally yes I think WandaVision should have ended with her surrendering either to Doctor Strange or Monica Rambeau and sent to kama-taj or just some kind of Criminal Psychiatry Hospital. Preferably the later since it would be reward Rambeau's faith in Wanda and she needs grief counselling more than magic training.

Ideally then in MoM, the multiverse problems would be caused by Stranges in multiple universes fucking about with it. (some for good reasons like ours in NWH others in other universes less so) he genuinely goes to Wanda for help, she has a subplot where she's really tempted to do evil things with magic to fix her issues and resists, boom shows change and character development has happened.

Ah well, something for the fixfic I'm not going to write.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

It's here: