Scarlet-Spider vs Jedi

[KK]

Yet another logical fallacy from Kaptain Krackhead. If A is a subset of B, and B diminishes, then you assume that A is the only part of B which could have diminished.

This is quite rediculous.

Spider-Man has lost his spider-sense on more than one occasion. The spider-sense is a subset of "proportionate powers of a Spider," but that doesn't mean to lose one he has to lose them all.

You are COMPLETELY ignoring that their weakness was directly presented as blindness, and nothing else.

If A is a subset of B, and A is diminished, then B will be diminished by default. You can make anything sound like a fallicy if you twist the situation presented in the movie. Fact is, (and you can fucking deal with the fact that it's a fact) the movie only mentioned that the dark side blinded them. It was presented that way, and there wasn't even the slightest mention or hint that their combat power diminished.

Wow, you don't even realize it when you're committing huge fallacies of hasty generalization and red herrings, do you? Provide a shred of evidence that Jedi prescience is somehow separate from their other powers.

When the movie ONLY mentions their prescience as being affected, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that anything else was affected.

I don't have to prove what was shown, stated, and made clear in the movie. If you want to contradict it, then you've gotta have the proof.

In other words, if B is diminished, and A is a subset of B, then nothing but A could have possibly diminished.

El wrongo.

If A is diminished, and A is a subset of B, then the part of B that is diminished is A.

Don't be a dumbfuck and pretend the movie didn't make it very clear that the dark side specifically blinded them.

It was flat out fucking stated that the dark side was a shroud. I provided goddamn dictionary definitions of what that means, and the definitions fit perfectly with the weakness as Yoda himself explained it.

The movie doesn't agree with you, Yoda doesn't agree with you, and Webster's dictionary doesn't agree with you. In short: You are wrong.

You're a moron.

[Whips out handy Wong to reasonable translator]

Wong: "I'm going to go wash your semen out of my asshole now."

[Translator off]

Yet another repetition of your pathetic logical fallacy: you think that if B diminishes and A is a subset of B, then A is the only part of B which could have diminished. Where the fuck did you learn critical thinking? The Jehovah's Witnesses?

If A is STATED to be the only part of B that deminished, then yes, I'd say that's a pretty fucking reasonable idea.

Obviously, you don't know what "objective" means. The fact is that you have presented a theory which is one possible explanation of the quote. However, the rest of the body of evidence does not support your explanation.

Bullshit. The ENTIRE body of evidence supports me. The fucking dictionary supports me. What supports you?

Jedi were much less fearsome in AOTC than in TPM,

And you accuse me of not knowing what objective means?

where an entire commando squad fled from a single Sith lord.

1. Sith. Jedi. NOT THE FUCKING SAME.

2. Fled. Told to fall back by a pair of Jedi. NOT THE FUCKING SAME.

Where in any other movie have you seen a Jedi do something like what Anakin did when he jumped out of the speeder to chase the assassin? Where else have you seen a Jedi move like Yoda did against Dooku?

There was nothing more impressive about the Jedi in TPM than in AotC.

Why not? It's no less logical than your ridiculous claim that if B diminishes and A is a subset of B, then the only possible explanation is that A constituted 100% of the loss.

Enough.

The only real fallicy here is that you think:

If A is stated to be weakened and A is a subset of B, and thus B is weakened, every other subset of B must also be weakened.

When the weakness was directly stated to be caused by a "shroud" then there is very good reason to think that their prescience took 100% of the loss.

Funny how you take "the shroud of the Dark Side has fallen" and interpret it to mean "the shroud of the Dark Side has fallen but that is the only aspect in which our ability to use the Force has diminished, even though I never really said that and it's just groundless speculation on the part of Kaptain Krackhead".

I'm sorry if you can't understand the word shroud. Don't act like I'm at a loss because you're too fucking stupid to understand plain English.

I interpret "the shroud of the dark side has fallen" to mean that the shroud of the dark side has fallen. I don't have to add anything to it for it, by the word's very definition, to mean that there is a shroud making them blind.

What YOU are doing is interpreting "the shroud of the dark side has fallen" to mean "the shroud of the dark side has fallen, oh yeah plus somehow we lost combat power."

[KK]

And that was when he's rolling with punches and bracing himself...not when he's being thrown around like a ragdoll..or are your seeing the pretty pictures in a different light again.

Do I have to point to the Juggernaut pics for you yet again? Do you have to take a piss? I'll be happy to hold your dick for you, since you don't seem to be capable of doing anything for yourself. I post fucking pictures, and then you still require me to point out what is in plain view.

Spider-Man. Gripping the Juggernaut's helmet. The Juggernaut. Pounding the shit out of Spidey. Spider-Man. Not letting go of his grip. Not rolling with any blows. Getting through to you?

[KK]

Spider-sense enables him to move out of the path where the laser will go; it doesn't make him fast enough to actually move out of the way of the laser in flight.

How about I say this again. I hear 12th time's the charm.

In two of the laser pictures I posted, HE DID NOT HAVE HIS SPIDER-SENSE. The text in both of the pictures states as much.

[Darth Wong]

Yet another logical fallacy from Kaptain Krackhead. If A is a subset of B, and B diminishes, then you assume that A is the only part of B which could have diminished.

This is quite rediculous.

Spider-Man has lost his spider-sense on more than one occasion. The spider-sense is a subset of "proportionate powers of a Spider," but that doesn't mean to lose one he has to lose them all.

You are COMPLETELY ignoring that their weakness was directly presented as blindness, and nothing else.

The "and nothing else" part is your invention. If I say "the US military is stronger than it used to be; the new warships are incredible" does the absence of any specific mention of other branches mean that they must not have changed at all? Your logic is absolutely fucked.

If A is a subset of B, and A is diminished, then B will be diminished by default. You can make anything sound like a fallicy if you twist the situation presented in the movie.

Speak for yourself; they said onscreen that B has "diminished", and that A has weakened. You assume that therefore, A is the only part of B which could have possibly weakened, which is bullshit.

It was presented that way, and there wasn't even the slightest mention or hint that their combat power diminished.

Yoda's fear that they would get their asses kicked in combat is quite a hint, Krackhead.

When the movie ONLY mentions their prescience as being affected, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that anything else was affected.

So they should present an itemized list? The fact that Yoda was afraid their enemies would destroy them isn't enough for you, dumb-ass? If their combat power is unaffected, then why would Yoda be afraid that their enemies would destroy them?

BTW, I notice you have completely ignored the starwars.com quote which totally justifies my position.

I don't have to prove what was shown, stated, and made clear in the movie. If you want to contradict it, then you've gotta have the proof.

Stop misrepresenting your interpretation of facts as the facts themselves. It's annoying and dishonest.

El wrongo.

If A is diminished, and A is a subset of B, then the part of B that is diminished is A.

Windu said "our ability to use the Force has diminished". That is a statement that B has diminished. Yoda said that their prescience is lost. That is a statement that A has diminished. You take "B has diminished" and "A has diminished" to mean that "A is the only part of B which has diminished", and you think we're all so stupid that we'll buy into your bullshit.

<snip endless repetitions of the same fallacy>

Where in any other movie have you seen a Jedi do something like what Anakin did when he jumped out of the speeder to chase the assassin? Where else have you seen a Jedi move like Yoda did against Dooku?

There are only 5 movies, asshole. And of those, there is only one movie where real Jedi are shown in combat. Screaming that I must go to official materials to find proof is ridiculous; it's in the official materials, and you simply ignore every official quote or cite that's brought up because you screech that it must be in the movies or it doesn't exist.

There was nothing more impressive about the Jedi in TPM than in AotC.

I see that you have lowered yourself to pure self-delusion. A Jedi knight got killed by Jango Fett at point-blank with a handgun in AOTC. In TPM, two Jedi Knights wiped out whole squads without difficulty and survived nerve gas.

... you think

If A is stated to be weakened and A is a subset of B, and thus B is weakened, every other subset of B must also be weakened.

Strawman. Both B and A were stated to be weakened. You leap to the conclusion that therefore, A was the only part of B which weakened.

I'm sorry if you can't understand the word shroud. Don't act like I'm at a loss because you're too fucking stupid to understand plain English.

I'm sorry you're so fucking stupid that you actually think our disagreement is over the definition of the word "shroud".

[Typhonis 1]

Danger sense merely warns him something is going to hppen NOT the NATURE of the danger unless you have proof otherwise.I do remeber one what if issue where Punisher kills Spiderman by dressing up a bomb as Doc oc Spidery attacks realisese has been had when the bomb goes off.
He knew there was danger but not where said danger was coming from .

[Darth Wong]

Spider-sense enables him to move out of the path where the laser will go; it doesn't make him fast enough to actually move out of the way of the laser in flight.

How about I say this again. I hear 12th time's the charm.

In two of the laser pictures I posted, HE DID NOT HAVE HIS SPIDER-SENSE. The text in both of the pictures states as much.

So? Punisher is just a normal human and therefore can't dodge bullets, yet he is routinely shown appearing to do just that. Marvelverse marksmen suck. I don't see how this proves anything.

[Cosmic Average]

Danger sense merely warns him something is going to hppen NOT the NATURE of the danger unless you have proof otherwise.I do remeber one what if issue where Punisher kills Spiderman by dressing up a bomb as Doc oc Spidery attacks realisese has been had when the bomb goes off.
He knew there was danger but not where said danger was coming from .

Marvel Secret Wars #4

"But--But, Hulk, I--I sense danger danger... My Spider-Sense warning me... Danger... Above..."

Spider-Man

[Darth Wong]

Danger sense merely warns him something is going to hppen NOT the NATURE of the danger unless you have proof otherwise.I do remeber one what if issue where Punisher kills Spiderman by dressing up a bomb as Doc oc Spidery attacks realisese has been had when the bomb goes off.
He knew there was danger but not where said danger was coming from .

Marvel Secret Wars #4

"But--But, Hulk, I--I sense danger danger... My Spider-Sense warning me... Danger... Above..."

Spider-Man

Doesn't that support the point? Spiderman can't tell what the danger is; he only has a vague sense that it's there. Certainly nowhere near as useful as Jedi abilities such as Luke foretelling Han Solo being tortured or Yoda monitoring Luke's upbringing from across the galaxy.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Spider-sense enables him to move out of the path where the laser will go; it doesn't make him fast enough to actually move out of the way of the laser in flight.

How about I say this again. I hear 12th time's the charm.

In two of the laser pictures I posted, HE DID NOT HAVE HIS SPIDER-SENSE. The text in both of the pictures states as much.

So? Punisher is just a normal human and therefore can't dodge bullets, yet he is routinely shown appearing to do just that. Marvelverse marksmen suck. I don't see how this proves anything.

No, the Punisher doesn't dodge bullets, he wears body armor and occasionally takes a few in the limbs.

[Darth Wong]

So? Punisher is just a normal human and therefore can't dodge bullets, yet he is routinely shown appearing to do just that. Marvelverse marksmen suck. I don't see how this proves anything.

No, the Punisher doesn't dodge bullets, he wears body armor and occasionally takes a few in the limbs.

Most of the time, they show them missing him.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Wrong again. Part of the reason why Spider-Man can dodge bullets is because his reaction times allows him to step out of the way before his opponent can point, aim, and shoot. If Spider-Man was fighting an opponent with similar reaction time, then he's lost most of his dodging capability and can be tracked.

Thank you. Since Jedi have precognition, which equates to a reaction time of less than zero seconds, by your own logic, they will counter his moves and win.

What's the point of having precog when your opponent is 40 times faster than you. At this point, all precog will tell you is when and where you're going to take a nasty punch or kick.

As I said earlier, if his opponent can react and move as fast as Spider-Man, then Spider-Man will have trouble dodging his attacks.

See above.

As I said above, precog is pointless if you move too slowly to evade an attack. You may be able to dodge the first one or punches, but not before the rest overwelm you and nails you.

Fact: Jedi can move impossibly fast for ground traction, thus requiring a TK push against some object such as a wall. Spidey does not have TK. He cannot accelerate the way the Jedi did in TPM.

Excuse, but Spider-Man has proven that he has enough traction for high rates of acceleration EVERY TIME HE STICKS TO THE WALL AND CEILING. IS THAT ENOUGH TRACTION FOR YOU?

No, it isn't. Perhaps your brain is not capable of grasping this, but in order to stick to a wall, you only need force equivalent to 1 G of acceleration.
You do not need force equivalent to 60-100 G's. Yet again, you demonstrate your staggering ignorance of elementary physics. This has always been a problem for you; your knowledge of physics appears to be hovering around the grade 6 level. Perhaps some remedial courses are in order, hmm?

Eat shit, asshole. Spider-Man can adhede to surfaces with a helluva lot more force than his own weight. From http://www.geocities.com/ironpat/Spider-Man.html

*Peter Parker is Spider-Man #15 He sticks to a wall and holds up the main supporting beam of a stadium floor until everyone gets out (he is horizontal the whole time about 6 feet above the ground).

Does that look like he only needed to apply 150 lb of force to hold himself up, you Luke/Leia incest porn wanking fanwhore? Any engineer that thinks you can hold up a structure that heavy with just 150 lb of force needs to go back to sixth grade.

Fact: Spidey's strength is a few hundred times that of a typical human. A few hundred times the force necessary to crush a human trachea is nothing for a Jedi, since even journeyman Jedi could throw battledroids and superbattledroids weighing hundreds of pounds around like rag dolls.

Fact: When have anyone seen Jedi produce that much force TK besides Yoda and Luke? Never, not without using something like the Sith Temples on Yavin 4 to focus and amplify Force power.

Read what you're quoting before you fire off one of your knee-jerk responses, you idiot. The Sith temples allowed them to throw a fleet of multi-billion ton warships at greater than lightspeed. That is a ridiculous amount of power, and far more than they need in this case.

I don't see to recall the progenator of this thread setting this fight at the magic Sith Temple of power wanking.

The example of throwing battledroids around like rag dolls is more than enough. You can crush a human's trachea with a few pounds applied to the right place, and if you multiply that by a few hundred, you've still got only a few hundred pounds, which is nothing for a Jedi. Any Jedi. And it's even easier if he goes after the carotid artery.

Even the EU doesn't show a Jedi or Sith doing any sort of complex surgery. What next? A force user applying a few hundred pounds of force to the inside of a person causing them to explode? You think their no limit to how the Jedi can apply force TK when in fact, the only time Jedi usually has to concentrate to any sort of TK besides a simple Force shove. Even Vader had to see Ozzel before he could Force choke him. The sort of TK that can pinpoint a particular point on the body and cause a ruptured artery or blood clot has never been seen in the movies and I doubt in the EU.

It's funny how you use the EU as examples of Jedi Force powers even though the EU specifically states that a Jedi cannot use Force TK to physically attack an opponent or else he starts going on the Dark Side. Stop cherry picking what you want out of the EU.

Stop being an idiot. A Jedi can voluntarily use that aspect of the Force if necessary, and they have done so on numerous occasions, both in the films and in the EU. This is like saying that a Buddhist police officer will never fire his gun, so he can be beaten by a twelve year old with a swiss army knife.

I didn't say Jedi couldn't Force-choke, I said they couldn't do so without the risk of turning to the Dark Side.

By the way, the canon AOTC novelization clearly shows that it is perfectly normal for Jedi to use the Force during lightsabre battles, to push their opponents around. You lose. Again.

You're a moron if you can't see the difference between shoving a person out of the way and choking them to death.

[Crossover_Maniac]

So? Punisher is just a normal human and therefore can't dodge bullets, yet he is routinely shown appearing to do just that. Marvelverse marksmen suck. I don't see how this proves anything.

No, the Punisher doesn't dodge bullets, he wears body armor and occasionally takes a few in the limbs.

Most of the time, they show them missing him.

Is the Punisher actually dodging bullets by weaving in or out like Spider-Man or is it that they just missed?

[Crossover_Maniac]

And let's not forget the all powerful character shield.

[Darth Wong]

What's the point of having precog when your opponent is 40 times faster than you. At this point, all precog will tell you is when and where you're going to take a nasty punch or kick.

A high-powered blaster bolt moves at hypersonic velocity, yet a Jedi can react to that thanks to precog.

As I said above, precog is pointless if you move too slowly to evade an attack. You may be able to dodge the first one or punches, but not before the rest overwelm you and nails you.

By your logic, Jedi should be unable to survive against blaster-armed foes.

Eat shit, asshole. Spider-Man can adhede to surfaces with a helluva lot more force than his own weight. From http://www.geocities.com/ironpat/Spider-Man.html

*Peter Parker is Spider-Man #15 He sticks to a wall and holds up the main supporting beam of a stadium floor until everyone gets out (he is horizontal the whole time about 6 feet above the ground).

Does that look like he only needed to apply 150 lb of force to hold himself up, you Luke/Leia incest porn wanking fanwhore? Any engineer that thinks you can hold up a structure that heavy with just 150 lb of force needs to go back to sixth grade.

Since a stadium floor does not need a supporting beam and should be on a solid foundation, that quote is meaningless. Try again, idiot. By the way, you forgot to mention the part of that same page where they note that Spidey's vertical jump is only 30 feet. And, oh, just in case you get any funny ideas, if there was that much load, the portion of the supporting beam he was attached to would have distorted. Oops, yet another obvious fact that escaped your notice.

I don't see to recall the progenator of this thread setting this fight at the magic Sith Temple of power wanking.

So it's "power wanking" to invoke that incident, but not when people claim that Spidey can dodge lasers in flight? I notice that you quietly snipped the part about how I pointed out the fact that you are ignoring the OTHER examples quoted in favour of pretending that this is the only one we can come up with.

Even the EU doesn't show a Jedi or Sith doing any sort of complex surgery.

Wrong. A Jedi uses the Force to extract destructive nanobots from someone's bloodstream in the EU.

What next? A force user applying a few hundred pounds of force to the inside of a person causing them to explode? You think their no limit to how the Jedi can apply force TK when in fact, the only time Jedi usually has to concentrate to any sort of TK besides a simple Force shove. Even Vader had to see Ozzel before he could Force choke him.

On a fucking video camera, dumb-ass. That is not a line of sight.

The sort of TK that can pinpoint a particular point on the body and cause a ruptured artery or blood clot has never been seen in the movies and I doubt in the EU.

Your own ignorance is not a valid argument.

This is like saying that a Buddhist police officer will never fire his gun, so he can be beaten by a twelve year old with a swiss army knife.

I didn't say Jedi couldn't Force-choke, I said they couldn't do so without the risk of turning to the Dark Side.

Yet no evidence has ever been presented for this. Yoda himself attacks Dooku with the Force when he could have easily dissipated the attack, yet people still cling to his propagandistic claim that Jedi don't attack with the Force. Luke uses the Force offensively, and in fact, every Jedi in the movies uses the Force offensively at some point, even if it's against a droid (whose sentience you have never disproven).

You're a moron if you can't see the difference between shoving a person out of the way and choking them to death.

They require the same ability; it's a simple matter of deciding to do it. Since Jedi knights routinely kill or dismember people, you have to be a moron to think that they will be morally constrained from using their full power against a superhuman enemy.

[Darth Wong]

Is the Punisher actually dodging bullets by weaving in or out like Spider-Man or is it that they just missed?

He's juking randomly, and they miss. Prove that Spidey isn't doing the same thing.

[KK]

The "and nothing else" part is your invention. If I say "the US military is stronger than it used to be; the new warships are incredible" does the absence of any specific mention of other branches mean that they must not have changed at all? Your logic is absolutely fucked.

Flawed analogy. A better one would be:

Officer 1: "They're using new stealth technology that our radars can't pick up."
Officer 1: "We should inform the President that our ability to attack has been diminished."

According to you the comment about stealth technology making their radars blind wouldn't be exactly what "ability to attack has been diminished" is referring to. Instead, you'd have us believe their missles suddenly started packing less power and their guns started firing fewer rounds.

Yoda's fear that they would get their asses kicked in combat is quite a hint, Krackhead.

If he had that fear, you would have a point. But since, like always, you prove incapable of proving proper quotes, you fail to mention that Yoda *actually* feared that their adversaries would multiply.

Unfortunately for you, Yoda fearing more about their current adversaries would indeed support your stance. But since what he actually feared was that they would get more adversaries, it actually supports my stance.

You see, when the Jedi know everything that's going on in the galaxy, it's pretty damn hard to rise up against them. They sense an army building up, and it's taken care of faster than you can spank it to turbolaser calcs. That's why, as Mace Windu himself said, they were peacekeepers, but could not fight a war. They stopped potential threats before they arose. But ah, when they don't know everything that's going on in the galaxy then it's quite a good deal easier to build a secret army, and the Jedi's ability to utilize the force, you might put it, to keep the peace, becomes quite diminished, for lack of a better word.

The problem here is that for all of your physics knowledge, you're lousy at analyzing literature. So while you're busy reading Star Wars novels for numbers to do calcs, I'm busy reading Faulkner and Dostoyevsky to hone my literary skills. Likewise, all you seem to get out of what you do read is numbers, and you miss fundamental literary points.

So they should present an itemized list? The fact that Yoda was afraid their enemies would destroy them isn't enough for you, dumb-ass? If their combat power is unaffected, then why would Yoda be afraid that their enemies would destroy them?

Because they are keepers of the peace. Not an army. They prevent war. They don't fight war. And like it or not, Jedi were never equipped to fight armies. When they lose the ability to sense and prevent adversaries from forming, their ability to use the force for their purpose is indeed diminished.

BTW, I notice you have completely ignored the starwars.com quote which totally justifies my position.

Because it doesn't. It didn't tell me anything I didn't get out of the movie itself.

Windu said "our ability to use the Force has diminished".

Indeed it had. When one day you can sense everything happening in the entire galaxy, and the next day you can't, that's a pretty big diminishment.

You act as though combat is really the main purpose of the Jedi. It's not. Or did you miss their entire purpose?

That is a statement that B has diminished. Yoda said that their prescience is lost. That is a statement that A has diminished. You take "B has diminished" and "A has diminished" to mean that "A is the only part of B which has diminished", and you think we're all so stupid that we'll buy into your bullshit.

I didn't think you were stupid enough to think it was bullshit. I gave you too much credit.

There are only 5 movies, asshole. And of those, there is only one movie where real Jedi are shown in combat.

Oh, so NOW Luke isn't a real Jedi.

At least you came to your senses on that point.

Screaming that I must go to official materials to find proof is ridiculous;

And there you have it, folks.

it's in the official materials, and you simply ignore every official quote or cite that's brought up because you screech that it must be in the movies or it doesn't exist.

You've only brought up two references. One I ignored because, like it or not, an entire group of Jedi amped by Sith Temples and using one of their number as a sacrificial lamb is in no way a display of the power of a single average Jedi. The other was fine, but ultimately didn't prove a single point.

I see that you have lowered yourself to pure self-delusion.

Which is only possible since you're using purely subjective evidence as your argument. Whether or not you were more impressed is ultimately irrelevant unless you can give good reason.

A Jedi knight got killed by Jango Fett at point-blank with a handgun in AOTC. In TPM, two Jedi Knights wiped out whole squads without difficulty and survived nerve gas.

Two Jedi ran with their tails between their legs from a handfull of the rolling droids in TPM, and couldn't even beat a single Sith lord 2-on-1. A Jedi padawan leaped from a speeding vehicle and managed to land on another specific vehicle far, far below in AOTC, and two Jedi went unharmed through what should have paralyzed them for hours.

You're going to have to do better than just pointing out how you think Jedi were cooler in TPM.

I'm sorry you're so fucking stupid that you actually think our disagreement is over the definition of the word "shroud".

"Shroud" is the very definition given for the exact cause of the Jedi's weakness. I'm sorry if you think a fundamental point is irrelevant.

[KK]

He's juking randomly, and they miss. Prove that Spidey isn't doing the same thing.

Punisher moves out of the way of where the gunman is aiming.

Spider-Man stands in the middle of a stream of fire from a pair of Uzis and never moves away from where the gunman is aiming, but rather contorts his body so that individual bullets within the stream don't hit him.

There's a world of fucking difference between the two.

[Darth Wong]

The "and nothing else" part is your invention. If I say "the US military is stronger than it used to be; the new warships are incredible" does the absence of any specific mention of other branches mean that they must not have changed at all? Your logic is absolutely fucked.

Flawed analogy. A better one would be:

Officer 1: "They're using new stealth technology that our radars can't pick up."
Officer 1: "We should inform the President that our ability to attack has been diminished."

Wow, and what makes your analogy better than mine? The fact is that either is possible based on the quote, but the EU makes it very clear that mine is the correct one.

Yoda's fear that they would get their asses kicked in combat is quite a hint, Krackhead.

If he had that fear, you would have a point. But since, like always, you prove incapable of proving proper quotes, you fail to mention that Yoda *actually* feared that their adversaries would multiply.

And why the fuck would their adversaries multiply? Because they would no longer be afraid of them due to their "weakness", dumb-ass. What "weakness" do you think Yoda was talking about?

<snip more repetitive refusals to acknowledge the EU's clear statements on this subject>

When you decide to deal with all of the evidence rather than ignoring most of it, come back and talk. Until then, you're full of shit.

The problem here is that for all of your physics knowledge, you're lousy at analyzing literature. So while you're busy reading Star Wars novels for numbers to do calcs, I'm busy reading Faulkner and Dostoyevsky to hone my literary skills.

Too bad we're attempting to synthesize a predictive model rather than a literary discussion, so my approach is more valid than yours.

BTW, I notice you have completely ignored the starwars.com quote which totally justifies my position.

Because it doesn't. It didn't tell me anything I didn't get out of the movie itself.

It says they were getting killed off due to their diminished use of the Force, dumb-ass. How does this not indicate reduced combat effectiveness to you?

Moreover, how do you explain the superior TPM skills as opposed to the AOTC skills? Why weren't the Jedi in the Geonosian arena leaping up many stories into the air or accelerating at ridiculous speed, the way everyone did in TPM?

I can explain this easily. Your explanation is "ummmmm, nothing really changed. Yeah, that's it".

You've only brought up two references. One I ignored because, like it or not, an entire group of Jedi amped by Sith Temples and using one of their number as a sacrificial lamb is in no way a display of the power of a single average Jedi. The other was fine, but ultimately didn't prove a single point.

The fact that he brought down a hulking AT-AT with the Force doesn't prove a single point about his TK? Nice one.

Which is only possible since you're using purely subjective evidence as your argument. Whether or not you were more impressed is ultimately irrelevant unless you can give good reason.

Your idiotic preference for literary methods over rational quantifiable ones while simultaneously claiming to be more "objective" is the most laughable thing about your position.

Two Jedi ran with their tails between their legs from a handfull of the rolling droids in TPM, and couldn't even beat a single Sith lord 2-on-1.

Actually, Qui-Gon said it was a stalemate, and they decided to beat feet because the entire ship's complement was about to come down on them if they lingered any longer, dumb-ass. He decided to go to the surface instead. As for beating a single Sith Lord, you act as though that's easy.

A Jedi padawan leaped from a speeding vehicle and managed to land on another specific vehicle far, far below in AOTC, and two Jedi went unharmed through what should have paralyzed them for hours.

Falling is easier than leaping up, dumb-ass. And I don't recall hearing anywhere that the power coupling should have paralyzed them for hours; it was not destructive enough to scratch the paint on their speeder.

You're going to have to do better than just pointing out how you think Jedi were cooler in TPM.

Strawman; quantifiable data was pres=ented (you know, the kind you're obviously too stupid to understand). See the Jedi Invisibility thread.

I'm sorry you're so fucking stupid that you actually think our disagreement is over the definition of the word "shroud".

"Shroud" is the very definition given for the exact cause of the Jedi's weakness. I'm sorry if you think a fundamental point is irrelevant.

"Shroud" is a word used at the end of the movie: "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen. Begun, this Clone War has". The scene in question (where their diminished ability to use the Force is mentioned) occurs in the middle of the movie. There is little reason to connect the two, and less to insist that the latter must be strictly meant for describing the former. Your dishonesty knows no bounds.

[Darth Wong]

He's juking randomly, and they miss. Prove that Spidey isn't doing the same thing.

Punisher moves out of the way of where the gunman is aiming.

Spider-Man stands in the middle of a stream of fire from a pair of Uzis and never moves away from where the gunman is aiming, but rather contorts his body so that individual bullets within the stream don't hit him.

There's a world of fucking difference between the two.

Oh right, Spidey makes no attempt whatsoever to move from a fixed spot. Besides, you still have no evidence for his speed, since you cannot estimate velocity from a fixed frame which describes an unspecified time period.

[Darth Wong]

By the way, as long as we're back to your policy of ignoring extenuating circumstances, anybody can take out Spidey with a tranquilizer dart. See Kraven's Last Hunt.

[Crossover_Maniac]

What's the point of having precog when your opponent is 40 times faster than you. At this point, all precog will tell you is when and where you're going to take a nasty punch or kick.

A high-powered blaster bolt moves at hypersonic velocity, yet a Jedi can react to that thanks to precog.

When have blasters ever move at hypersonic velocity? Most of the time, they move slower than bullets. Also, try to remember that the person with the blaster usually fires about once every second giving the Jedi time to position his weapon to block the next bolt.

As I said above, precog is pointless if you move too slowly to evade an attack. You may be able to dodge the first one or punches, but not before the rest overwelm you and nails you.

By your logic, Jedi should be unable to survive against blaster-armed foes.

See above.

Eat shit, asshole. Spider-Man can adhede to surfaces with a helluva lot more force than his own weight. From http://www.geocities.com/ironpat/Spider-Man.html

*Peter Parker is Spider-Man #15 He sticks to a wall and holds up the main supporting beam of a stadium floor until everyone gets out (he is horizontal the whole time about 6 feet above the ground).

Does that look like he only needed to apply 150 lb of force to hold himself up, you Luke/Leia incest porn wanking fanwhore? Any engineer that thinks you can hold up a structure that heavy with just 150 lb of force needs to go back to sixth grade.

Since a stadium floor does not need a supporting beam and should be on a solid foundation, that quote is meaningless. Try again, idiot.[/quote]

I guess they put that support beam up for looks and Spider-Man was holding it for the hell of it :rolleyes: It's probably a typo-o and that should have been 'ceiling' and not 'floor'.

By the way, you forgot to mention the part of that same page where they note that Spidey's vertical jump is only 30 feet. And, oh, just in case you get any funny ideas, if there was that much load, the portion of the supporting beam he was attached to would have distorted. Oops, yet another obvious fact that escaped your notice.

Since there was no distortion in the beam (I'll have to have that particular issue in hand to see), we have to assume that gravity of the Marvel-verse earth is only 1% of the real life earth just like bullets only go 20 mph in the Marvel-verse :rolleyes: OR we chalk up another example of a comic book brain bug.

I don't see to recall the progenator of this thread setting this fight at the magic Sith Temple of power wanking.

So it's "power wanking" to invoke that incident, but not when people claim that Spidey can dodge lasers in flight? I notice that you quietly snipped the part about how I pointed out the fact that you are ignoring the OTHER examples quoted in favour of pretending that this is the only one we can come up with.

It's power wanking when the only time we see Jedi swat stardestroyers like flies is in Darksaber while the rest of SW showing TK abilities around the several hundred pound range for the average Jedi and several tons for the likes of Yoda.

Even the EU doesn't show a Jedi or Sith doing any sort of complex surgery.

Wrong. A Jedi uses the Force to extract destructive nanobots from someone's bloodstream in the EU.

More EU power wanking. Since they can manipulate objects on the atomic level, Jedi can now turn graphite into diamonds.

What next? A force user applying a few hundred pounds of force to the inside of a person causing them to explode? You think their no limit to how the Jedi can apply force TK when in fact, the only time Jedi usually has to concentrate to any sort of TK besides a simple Force shove. Even Vader had to see Ozzel before he could Force choke him.

On a fucking video camera, dumb-ass. That is not a line of sight.

He still had to know where he was before he could choke which mean he has to see what he's doing.

The sort of TK that can pinpoint a particular point on the body and cause a ruptured artery or blood clot has never been seen in the movies and I doubt in the EU.

Your own ignorance is not a valid argument.

Then you can show an example of a Jedi or Sith doing surgery on an opponent in the middle of a battle using Force TK.

This is like saying that a Buddhist police officer will never fire his gun, so he can be beaten by a twelve year old with a swiss army knife.

I didn't say Jedi couldn't Force-choke, I said they couldn't do so without the risk of turning to the Dark Side.

Yet no evidence has ever been presented for this.[/quote]

It was mentioned that, in the Thrawn trilogy, Luke felt the presence of the Dark Side when he used his powers directly on an opponent.

Yoda himself attacks Dooku with the Force when he could have easily dissipated the attack,

If you take into account what the EU says about using the Force directly against an opponent, then Yoda was leaning towards the methods of the Dark Side in that battle.

yet people still cling to his propagandistic claim that Jedi don't attack with the Force. Luke uses the Force offensively, and in fact, every Jedi in the movies uses the Force offensively at some point, even if it's against a droid (whose sentience you have never disproven).

I doubt the battle droids were sentient. There are different degrees of intelligence for an AI, and considering they were controlled by remote from the Trade Federation flagship, I seriously doubt they were sentient.

You're a moron if you can't see the difference between shoving a person out of the way and choking them to death.

They require the same ability; it's a simple matter of deciding to do it.

And deciding to use a Force choke, according the EU, puts the Jedi at risk of going to the Dark Side.

Since Jedi knights routinely kill or dismember people, you have to be a moron to think that they will be morally constrained from using their full power against a superhuman enemy.

You mean like the time Obi Wan and Anakin used their full power to Force-shove one of those wild animals in the AotC arena into outer space and to cause the other two beasts' arteries and veins to rupture causing massive internal bleeding. I'm glad you reminded me about that scene. Thanks for setting me straight.



No, wait...



They didn't. They were struggling just to stay alive until reinforcements arrived.

[Crown]

Do I have to keep posting this until you actually see that a Jedi doesn't A) need to use a force choke to defeat Spiderman and B) show a Jedi can use TK on a living person?

Karrde nodded, the last mestery of the beckon call lying abandoned in the Dagobah swamp suddenly falling into plac. "And so you went back to Yoda and asked for help."
"Asked?" Car'das gave a short, self-deprecating laugh. "Not asked, Talon. Demanded."
He shook his head at the memory. "It must have looked quite absurd, really. There I stood, towering over him with a blaster in one hand and my beckon call in the other, threatening to bring my ship and all its awesome weaponry to bear on this short, wizened creature leaning on a staff in front of me. Of courese, I was the single-handed creator of the greatest smuggling organization of all time, while he was nothing but a simple little Jedi Master." He shook his head again.
"I'm suprised he didn't kill you on the spot," Shada said.
"At the time, I almost wished he had," Car'das said ruefully. "It would have been far less humiliating. Instead, he simply took the beckon call and blaster away from me and sent them spinning off into the swamp, then held me suspended a few centimeters above the ground and let me scream and flail to my heart's content.
"And when I finally ran out of strength and breath, he told me I was going to die."

Nice example. Now show us where Talon Car'das is strong enough to pick up a greyhound bus and can dodge laser and gun fire while cracking jokes.

I don't need to you dumb ass. If we can't use Force Chokes because; 'Yoda said', then we get to use 'Size matters not' i.e. mass matters not ergo Force matters not, hence strength matters not, because Yoda said so.

Concession Accepted.

How does it feel when your own rules work against you?

[Darth Wong]

When have blasters ever move at hypersonic velocity?

Several km/s on Geonosis across the battlefield.

Most of the time, they move slower than bullets. Also, try to remember that the person with the blaster usually fires about once every second giving the Jedi time to position his weapon to block the next bolt.

Superbattledroids can fire hundreds of rounds per minute. By your assessment of Jedi capabilities, one or two SBD's should have wiped out the Jedi in the arena.

I guess they put that support beam up for looks and Spider-Man was holding it for the hell of it :rolleyes: It's probably a typo-o and that should have been 'ceiling' and not 'floor'.

What kind of a stadium has a support beam in the middle of the main floor? Have you ever been in a stadium like that? Show me a scan of this place.

By the way, you forgot to mention the part of that same page where they note that Spidey's vertical jump is only 30 feet. And, oh, just in case you get any funny ideas, if there was that much load, the portion of the supporting beam he was attached to would have distorted. Oops, yet another obvious fact that escaped your notice.

Since there was no distortion in the beam (I'll have to have that particular issue in hand to see), we have to assume that gravity of the Marvel-verse earth is only 1% of the real life earth just like bullets only go 20 mph in the Marvel-verse :rolleyes: OR we chalk up another example of a comic book brain bug.

How about you try to generate a force estimate for this incident? Or is it so vague that you can't? Whoops; I let the cat out of the bag, didn't I?

It's power wanking when the only time we see Jedi swat stardestroyers like flies is in Darksaber while the rest of SW showing TK abilities around the several hundred pound range for the average Jedi and several tons for the likes of Yoda.

Not to mention Dark Empire. But I'll make you an offer: would you concede if I can find more examples of Jedi using powerful Force TK offensively in the EU?

More EU power wanking. Since they can manipulate objects on the atomic level, Jedi can now turn graphite into diamonds.

You don't need atomic-level manipulation to grab nanobots, moron. Nanobots are microscopic, not atomic.

On a fucking video camera, dumb-ass. That is not a line of sight.

He still had to know where he was before he could choke which mean he has to see what he's doing.

If the only requirement for Vader to kill someone is a general idea of his location, he's a pretty fucking dangerous person, in case you can't figure that out on your own.

Then you can show an example of a Jedi or Sith doing surgery on an opponent in the middle of a battle using Force TK.

Dark Empire; Luke manipulates the internal components of an entire squad of droids to kill them in the middle of a battle.

In the EU, Jedi are encouraged to use the Force as little as possible in general. That doesn't mean there are specific ironclad bans on particular types of use, as you seem to think.

It was mentioned that, in the Thrawn trilogy, Luke felt the presence of the Dark Side when he used his powers directly on an opponent.

If you actually read the EU instead of grabbing snippets out of context, you would know that anybody who overuses the Force eventually gets drawn to its Dark Side. That doesn't mean there is anything special about using Force TK on an opponent.

Yoda himself attacks Dooku with the Force when he could have easily dissipated the attack,

If you take into account what the EU says about using the Force directly against an opponent, then Yoda was leaning towards the methods of the Dark Side in that battle.

Do not confuse your interpretation with what the EU actually says.

I doubt the battle droids were sentient. There are different degrees of intelligence for an AI, and considering they were controlled by remote from the Trade Federation flagship, I seriously doubt they were sentient.

The droids on the ship could feel fear. I'd say they were sentient. The ones fighting the Gungans are irrelevant, since the Jedi did not fight them.

They require the same ability; it's a simple matter of deciding to do it.

And deciding to use a Force choke, according the EU, puts the Jedi at risk of going to the Dark Side.

Find me the quote which says specifically that Force TK against a living target is a strictly Dark Side power.

Since Jedi knights routinely kill or dismember people, you have to be a moron to think that they will be morally constrained from using their full power against a superhuman enemy.

You mean like the time Obi Wan and Anakin used their full power to Force-shove one of those wild animals in the AotC arena into outer space and to cause the other two beasts' arteries and veins to rupture causing massive internal bleeding. I'm glad you reminded me about that scene. Thanks for setting me straight.

Again, you try to use AOTC as proof and ignore the weakness issue. OK, as long as we're ignoring extenuating circumstances, anybody can kill Spiderman with a tranq dart trap. See Kraven's Last Hunt.

[Crossover_Maniac]

As for this the Dark Side diminished all of our Jedi power crap, had the dialogue between Mace Windu and Yoda went like this, you would have a valid point:

Yoda: Remembered good old days, I do. Used to knock starships out of their orbit we could. Now we lose to non-Force users with rocket packs and grapling hooks.

Mace Windu: I'll inform the Senate our ability to use the Force has been diminished.

It's funny that neither Mace nor Yoda notice the Jedi's ability to use the Force was diminished until after they found out about the Clone Army that was hidden from them for tens years. You'd think the Jedi would have known something was up when they loss their molecular control powers and their uber, AT-AT stomping Force TK and had trouble handling wild animals without their weapons or non-Force users with Mandalorian armor over a period of ten years. But no, Yoda's so senile he didn't realize that his planet-juggling Jedis were now pansies that were helpless against wild animals without their lightsabers. And if the Jedi were so powerful from the beginning, then why would they even bother with lightsabers. Why not crush every single blaster that their precognition told them would shoot at them with just their Force-TK? Why didn't Qui Gonn just rip the blast doors off instead of cutting them with his lightsabers? It's something I've been wondering about since I first read some of the EU novels like Darksaber.

[Darth Wong]

As for this the Dark Side diminished all of our Jedi power crap, had the dialogue between Mace Windu and Yoda went like this, you would have a valid point:

Yoda: Remembered good old days, I do. Used to knock starships out of their orbit we could. Now we lose to non-Force users with rocket packs and grapling hooks.

Mace Windu: I'll inform the Senate our ability to use the Force has been diminished.

It's funny that neither Mace nor Yoda notice the Jedi's ability to use the Force was diminished until after they found out about the Clone Army that was hidden from them for tens years.

They knew about it long before that scene, you idiot. What part of the starwars.com description escaped your attention? Their numbers have been dwindling from attrition for quite some time already. They are weakened, which is why they're getting KILLED! Why do you think they were only able to assemble a couple of hundred Jedi for the Battle of Geonosis? Are you totally reading-disabled?