King Kong vs. Dagon

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2003-08-08 12:51pm

The Monstrous Ape vs. the Lord of the Deep Ones Both are about the same size IIRC. (And no, Kong will not go mad for the purposes of this fight, but the loathsome apperance of Dagon manages to fuel a hateful rage for the unnatural thing before him) GO!

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-08-08 12:54pm

If I recally my lovecraft correctly, Dagon is at least on the same order as Cthuluhu, including the immortality thing.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-08-08 12:55pm

Oh, and wrong fourm.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2003-08-08 01:36pm

Whoops on the Wrong forum--

Anywho, Kong need not kill Dagon, simply drive him off (sure, Dagaon would then do some of that black magic he does so well and have kong killed via indirect means, but her, that's how it works!)

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-08 03:17pm

NecronLord wrote:If I recally my lovecraft correctly, Dagon is at least on the same order as Cthuluhu, including the immortality thing.

Actually, since Dagon only is mentioned in awed, whispered tones in "Shadow Over Innsmouth" and barely described in "Dagon" - some Lovecraft fans speculate whether Dagon just is a pseudonym of Cthulhu.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-08-10 08:39pm

Dagon is an exceptionally old and HUUUUGE deep-one.

He does however inspire a great deal of sanity loss and is worshipped by deep-ones, their cults and some other groups.

There is also "Mother Hydra" a female deep-one of comparable size and age.

King-Kong goes insane and Dagon eats him.

So yes it does end up pretty much as if Cthulhu was doing it.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-11 09:10am

weemadando wrote:Dagon is an exceptionally old and HUUUUGE deep-one.

He does however inspire a great deal of sanity loss and is worshipped by deep-ones, their cults and some other groups.

Where does Lovecraft explicitly state that Dagon is a gigantic Deep One??

All he states about Dagon in the only story where we encounter him is that he is a "stupendous monster" who is "vast, loathsome and polyphemus-like", has scaly arms and "a hideous head".

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-08-11 10:50am

I doubt that King Kong would go insane anyway, going insane in Lovecraft means that you as human become convinced of your own insignificance in the universe and there are forces out there you can't hope to understand with your limited brain. King Kong misses the intellectual capability to go insane for these reasons.

And re: Dagon being a deep One:

from The Shadow Over Innsmouth:

"All in the band of the faithful - Order 0' Dagon - an' the children shud never die, but go back to the Mother Hydra an' Father Dagon what we all come from onct ... Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah-nagl fhtaga - "

This strongly suggests that the Deep Ones are all descendants of Dagon and Hydra, making it only logical that both are Deep Ones themselves.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-12 08:47am

Dizzy D wrote:I doubt that King Kong would go insane anyway, going insane in Lovecraft means that you as human become convinced of your own insignificance in the universe and there are forces out there you can't hope to understand with your limited brain. King Kong misses the intellectual capability to go insane for these reasons.

And re: Dagon being a deep One:

from The Shadow Over Innsmouth:

"All in the band of the faithful - Order 0' Dagon - an' the children shud never die, but go back to the Mother Hydra an' Father Dagon what we all come from onct ... Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah-nagl fhtaga - "

This strongly suggests that the Deep Ones are all descendants of Dagon and Hydra, making it only logical that both are Deep Ones themselves.

It is followed by an incantation mentioning Cthulhu and R'lyeh.

Also, it's possible that "back to Mother Mydra and Father Dagon where we all came from" refers to the sea and that the first life evolved in the sea.

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-08-12 12:22pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote: It is followed by an incantation mentioning Cthulhu and R'lyeh.

Also, it's possible that "back to Mother Mydra and Father Dagon where we all came from" refers to the sea and that the first life evolved in the sea.

The etchings that the main character in Dagon sees, "Grotesque beyond the imagination of a Poe or a Bulwer, they were damnably human in general outline despite webbed hands and feet, shockingly wide and flabby lips, glassy, bulging eyes, and other features less pleasant to recall. Curiously enough, they seemed to have been chiselled badly out of proportion with their scenic background; for one of the creatures was shown in the act of killing a whale represented as but little larger than himself." resemble a Deep One far more than Cthulhu.

If Father Dagon and Mother Hydra refers to the sea, why would they use a plural for that ?

(And in the Cthulhu Mythos life didn't emerge from the sea, but from Ubbo-Sathla or however you spell it, who lives in a cave, deep beneath the Earth.)

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-12 12:59pm

Dizzy D wrote:If Father Dagon and Mother Hydra refers to the sea, why would they use a plural for that ?

It was being said by Zadok Allen, a drunk old man who spoke with a heavy accent.

(And in the Cthulhu Mythos life didn't emerge from the sea, but from Ubbo-Sathla or however you spell it, who lives in a cave, deep beneath the Earth.)

I thought it was created by the Elder Things?

The etchings that the main character in Dagon sees, "Grotesque beyond the imagination of a Poe or a Bulwer, they were damnably human in general outline despite webbed hands and feet, shockingly wide and flabby lips, glassy, bulging eyes, and other features less pleasant to recall. Curiously enough, they seemed to have been chiselled badly out of proportion with their scenic background; for one of the creatures was shown in the act of killing a whale represented as but little larger than himself." resemble a Deep One far more than Cthulhu.

It could just be that they were exactly that - chiselled badly out of proportion.

Also, don't Deep Ones collaborate with Cthulhu and his Star-Spawn?? I also recall "Dagon" mentioning a relief of a "squid-dragon" thingy... I think one the first thing you can interpretate a Spawn of Cthulhu is as a squid-like dragon.

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-08-12 01:06pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote: It was being said by Zadok Allen, a drunk old man who spoke with a heavy accent.

Who was quoting what would be considered scripture for the Deep Ones.

I thought it was created by the Elder Things?

Elder Things used tissue from Ubbo-Sathla and developed it further to create their servitor races and other experiments.

It could just be that they were exactly that - chiselled badly out of proportion.

Could be, but highly unlikely since that turns out to be the point of the whole story: he sees Dagon and realises the etchings *weren't* out of proportion. Otherwise: the creature at the end of Call of Cthulhu is never identified as Cthulhu, it could just as well be a starspawn. etc.

Also, don't Deep Ones collaborate with Cthulhu and his Star-Spawn?? I also recall "Dagon" mentioning a relief of a "squid-dragon" thingy... I think one the first thing you can interpretate a Spawn of Cthulhu is as a squid-like dragon.

The Deep Ones worship Cthulhu: Cthulhu is like their god, while Dagon is more seen as a Abraham or Adam-figure. It also is striking that Dagon is only mentioned in Dagon itself and in connection with the Deep Ones, making him more like a Deep One-hero/mythical feature. (And with the Deep Ones claims of immortality, they are more likely to be sure about Dagon's role as a father of their race)

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-12 01:42pm

Who was quoting what would be considered scripture for the Deep Ones.

English isn't a Deep One's first language. Also - scripture or not, it could be that Zadok wasn't quoting it exactly as it's written in the Dagon Cult's scripture.

Otherwise: the creature at the end of Call of Cthulhu is never identified as Cthulhu, it could just as well be a starspawn. etc.

And the starspawn look exactly like smaller versions of Cthulhu.

The Deep Ones worship Cthulhu: Cthulhu is like their god, while Dagon is more seen as a Abraham or Adam-figure. It also is striking that Dagon is only mentioned in Dagon itself and in connection with the Deep Ones, making him more like a Deep One-hero/mythical feature. (And with the Deep Ones claims of immortality, they are more likely to be sure about Dagon's role as a father of their race)

Interesting idea. However - does the Esoteric Order of Dagon worship Cthulhu too, or just Dagon??

For the present they would rest; but some day, if they remembered, they would rise again for the tribute Great Cthulhu craved. It would be a city greater than Innsmouth next time.

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-08-12 02:59pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
English isn't a Deep One's first language. Also - scripture or not, it could be that Zadok wasn't quoting it exactly as it's written in the Dagon Cult's scripture.

Possible but unlikely. This is knowledge they have been spoonfed since they were little kids: "When you grow up, you'll be a Deep One, just like papa and grandfather and grand-grandmother and Papa Dagon and Mammy Hydra."

Interesting idea. However - does the Esoteric Order of Dagon worship Cthulhu too, or just Dagon??

Seeing the Cthulhu ftaghn quotes: I would say they worship Cthulhu also.

For the present they would rest; but some day, if they remembered, they would rise again for the tribute Great Cthulhu craved. It would be a city greater than Innsmouth next time.

Exactly.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-13 09:52am

Dizzy D wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:
English isn't a Deep One's first language. Also - scripture or not, it could be that Zadok wasn't quoting it exactly as it's written in the Dagon Cult's scripture.
Possible but unlikely. This is knowledge they have been spoonfed since they were little kids: "When you grow up, you'll be a Deep One, just like papa and grandfather and grand-grandmother and Papa Dagon and Mammy Hydra."

That's one of the most entertaining things I've ever read about Innsmouth.

Now, if H.P. Lovecraft wrote a "The Simpsons" episode:

(movie clip plays)

Ralph Wiggum: When I grow up, I wanna be a Deep One... or a caterpillar.

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-08-13 10:09am

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
That's one of the most entertaining things I've ever read about Innsmouth.

Now, if H.P. Lovecraft wrote a "The Simpsons" episode:

(movie clip plays)

Ralph Wiggum: When I grow up, I wanna be a Deep One... or a caterpillar.

LOL.

If you want to read some funny Mythos story: Neil Gaiman's "Shoggoth's Old Peculiar" and a short story in Cthulhu 2000 both are good parodies of the Mythos, the second one even includes the infamous joke:

"Knock, knock"
"Who's there ?"
"Cthul !"
"Cthul who ?"

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-13 10:47am

Actually, I'm currently working upon a project called "Simpsons, Cthulhu style"....