Destroying the One Ring

[SirNitram]

That's odd, because you explicitly stated lava was 'splashing' not two pages ago. So, are you BSing now, or BSing then? Because the two statements are self-contradictory.

These included lava being splashed onto the roof of the cavern where Frodo and Sam are when the ring falls to its destruction without harming them.

Well I'm trying not to BS now or then. Consider it a poor choice of words. The quote I was refering to was the "Fires leaped up and licked the roof" line I had quoted on page 3. Splash does seem to carry a connotation of something more liquid than I had intended, perhaps 'splatter' would have been better. But splash is used in describing volcanic eruptions. A quick google on "splashing lava" returns sites from vulcanoetna.com, volcanolive.com, nps.gov, geol.umd.edu, and noaa.gov. So according to all these sites spashing is a perfectly normal thing for lava to do.

But the basic question still remains. Do you have any evidence that would indicate that Mt Doom is an exceptionally hot volcano? You claim to have calculated a temperature of 2200-3000 C. How did you arrive at these figures? Certainly not just from the word splash.

Why yes, from the word splash, because 'splash' is a word used exclusively with liquids, and to splash the roof, the liquid has to be rather low in viscousity. Considering it was brought up in reference to quotes about how the lava acted, there's hardly a chance of misunderstanding.

I'm understandably annoyed at being completely misled as to this quote, 'flames licking the roof' is nothing like 'lava splashing the roof', and I doubt anyone here would disagree with me.

[Connor MacLeod]

Conventional lava, IIRC acts more like a plastic than a liquid. if Mount Doom's is liquid, that suggests the temperature would be between the melting point of a rocky or metallic substance. It would have to be less hot than vaporizing a metal/rocky material, though, since I don't recall mount doom ejecting large amounts of rock or metal vapor (I could be wrong though.)

[SirNitram]

*Flushing sound*

Since Igot has simply been vulturing and me-tooing, he's been flushed. No other posts should have been effected. If any were, PM me ASAP.

[Bartman]

That's odd, because you explicitly stated lava was 'splashing' not two pages ago. So, are you BSing now, or BSing then? Because the two statements are self-contradictory.

Well I'm trying not to BS now or then. Consider it a poor choice of words. The quote I was refering to was the "Fires leaped up and licked the roof" line I had quoted on page 3. Splash does seem to carry a connotation of something more liquid than I had intended, perhaps 'splatter' would have been better. But splash is used in describing volcanic eruptions. A quick google on "splashing lava" returns sites from vulcanoetna.com, volcanolive.com, nps.gov, geol.umd.edu, and noaa.gov. So according to all these sites spashing is a perfectly normal thing for lava to do.

But the basic question still remains. Do you have any evidence that would indicate that Mt Doom is an exceptionally hot volcano? You claim to have calculated a temperature of 2200-3000 C. How did you arrive at these figures? Certainly not just from the word splash.

Why yes, from the word splash, because 'splash' is a word used exclusively with liquids, and to splash the roof, the liquid has to be rather low in viscousity. Considering it was brought up in reference to quotes about how the lava acted, there's hardly a chance of misunderstanding.

I'm understandably annoyed at being completely misled as to this quote, 'flames licking the roof' is nothing like 'lava splashing the roof', and I doubt anyone here would disagree with me.

Again, splash was not the best word to use. But it is used to describe volcanoes. Or are you claiming that all the referenced sites above are talking about superheated lava? And I can hardly think that you guessed that it refered to ultra hot, super fluid lava, seeing as I was arguing against exactly that.

Throughout the books Tolkien never uses the word lava at all. In each case he uses fire/flame. i.e. "a huge fiery vomit", "slow rivers of fire", "the fires below awoke in anger". So it is no great a stretch to assume that fire=lava in this passage as well, especially considering there is no other source of fire within the volcano. It is also clear from the context that this is the begining of the erruption. So given Tolkien's writing style I think 'flames (lava) licking the roof' is quite a bit like 'lava splashing the roof'.

I had already provided the exact quote. And I refered back to the precise quote within the post you are refering to. So I can't see how you can be complaining about being misled. If you were at all unclear as to what I was refering to you could have simply looked at the precise quote. The fact is you were argueing in favor of an ultra-hot Mt Doom before I used the word splash. And you continued to do so afterwords. So splash can't have been the crux of your arguement.

I think you are avoiding the question. I have asked this several times now. And each time you have avoided the question. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that Mt Doom is an exceptionally hot volcano?

[lgot]

yeah, so much for someone that "was reading" the whole topic and flushed what was not...

Bartman, Do you remember the Simarils, one of them was lost in similar way of the one ring , the one with Maedhros, can you find out where he killed himself ?

[Stormbringer]

Igot:

What do the Simirals have to do with Sauron's Ring? They're seperate items and have no connection whatsoever. Or is it simply another Red Herring?

[Bartman]

Igot:

What do the Simirals have to do with Sauron's Ring? They're seperate items and have no connection whatsoever. Or is it simply another Red Herring?

I guessing the point is that Elves were capable of making items which could withstand volcanic heat. But it has already been mentioned in this thread and discarded. Just because a silmaril could survive a lava dip, has no real bearing on the ring. They were made by different entities for vastly different purposes in vastly different circumstances.

However for reference here is the quote Igot was asking for.
But the jewel burned the hand of Maedhros in pain unbearable; and he perceived that it was as Eönwë had said, and that his right thereto had become void, and that the oath was vain. And being in anguish and despair he cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended; and the Silmaril that he bore was taken into the bosom of the Earth.

And here is a quote from HOME 5: The Lost Road demonstrating that it would be recovered again.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and he will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth.

The exact location of this 'fire filled chasm' is indeterminate. But it would have to be fairly close to the camp of the Host of Valinor near the havens in lower Beleriand.

[SirNitram]

Again, splash was not the best word to use. But it is used to describe volcanoes. Or are you claiming that all the referenced sites above are talking about superheated lava? And I can hardly think that you guessed that it refered to ultra hot, super fluid lava, seeing as I was arguing against exactly that.

You wouldn't be the first to give evidence for a conclusion in contradiction to what you're arguing. I'm very cynical on that sort of thing.

As for the red herring about 'splashes' being used in volcanos, you are right about it being used in cases without superheated, pure liquid lava. However, and this is the kicker, it doesn't splash against the ceiling. We will again re-trace the steps: Flames licking the ceiling does not mean lava splashing against it. You should have said flames licking in the first place. The words you chose are massively different from what the passage tried to confer, and you blaming me from pulling information from a sentence I though was quoted is not the brightest move.

Throughout the books Tolkien never uses the word lava at all. In each case he uses fire/flame. i.e. "a huge fiery vomit", "slow rivers of fire", "the fires below awoke in anger". So it is no great a stretch to assume that fire=lava in this passage as well, especially considering there is no other source of fire within the volcano. It is also clear from the context that this is the begining of the erruption. So given Tolkien's writing style I think 'flames (lava) licking the roof' is quite a bit like 'lava splashing the roof'.

Do you know the word contrived? That's what this paragraph is. It's a contrived attempt to make it seem like 'lava splashing the roof' and 'flames licking the roof' are anything alike. This shouldn't require paragraphs of backpeddling and rewording and BS. Just admit you made an appalling choice of words and get on with your life.

I had already provided the exact quote. And I refered back to the precise quote within the post you are refering to. So I can't see how you can be complaining about being misled. If you were at all unclear as to what I was refering to you could have simply looked at the precise quote. The fact is you were argueing in favor of an ultra-hot Mt Doom before I used the word splash. And you continued to do so afterwords. So splash can't have been the crux of your arguement.

No, splash was not. SPLASHING AGAINST THE ROOF, however, is not something incredibly vicous liquids do often. If you weren't focused on trying to make 'splash' seem reasonable, you'd realize this.

I think you are avoiding the question. I have asked this several times now. And each time you have avoided the question. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that Mt Doom is an exceptionally hot volcano?

Well gee, it's only been explained a few times, but I'll go over it again:

Mt. Doom can melt something that forges cannot melt.

Medieval forges, very necessary for the equipment we know they have, are common in ME.

Ergo, Mt. Doom must be hotter than normal.

That you made a shitty substitution for a quote and then didn't like the fact I showed it supported me is not part of it, and your attempts to make me look like some sort of bad guy for daring to interperate 'lava splashing on the roof' as what it looks like isn't impressing anyone, except Igot, whose impressed by lava lamps.

[Darth Wong]

Bartman, you're being a sophistic asshole, nitpicking on errors that are actually YOUR fault. It's pathetic.

[lgot]

Bartman & Stormbringer:

The exact location of this 'fire filled chasm' is indeterminate. But it would have to be fairly close to the camp of the Host of Valinor near the havens in lower Beleriand.

that is what i was thinking. So this region is now under the Great Sea right ? (btw, nothing to do with what do not destroy one will not destroy the other. Two much difference of power between them)

Bartman, you're being a sophistic asshole, nitpicking on errors that are actually YOUR fault. It's pathetic.

actually he is picking in the lack of evidences of 3000 degrees of Mt.Doom present before the mistaken...
of course nitpicking in nowhere was a bad as the logic
"Mt.Doom can destroy the One Ring because Is Hotter. And Why is Mt.Doom hotter? Because it destroys the One ring" that was just presented...

[SirNitram]

Bartman, you're being a sophistic asshole, nitpicking on errors that are actually YOUR fault. It's pathetic.

actually he is picking in the lack of evidences of 3000 degrees of Mt.Doom present before the mistaken...
of course nitpicking in nowhere was a bad as the logic
"Mt.Doom can destroy the One Ring because Is Hotter. And Why is Mt.Doom hotter? Because it destroys the One ring" that was just presented...

Walls of Ignorance aren't welcome here. Go RTFW and learn what Circular Logic really is.