Most incompetent fantasy world conflicts ...

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-09-02 02:26pm

um Uruk-hai aren`t afraid of sunlight orcs are as are mountain trolls

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-02 02:56pm

Typhonis 1 wrote:um Uruk-hai aren`t afraid of sunlight orcs are as are mountain trolls

They're afraid of it. Just as much as common Orcs are. It's just they tolerate it better than do the lesser breeds of Orc.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-09-02 02:56pm

If only they'd stuck to the book, it wouldn'yt have been a problem....

In the book, the reinforcements are footsoldiers.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-02 02:57pm

Vendetta wrote:If only they'd stuck to the book, it wouldn'yt have been a problem....

In the book, the reinforcements are footsoldiers.

Not entirely foot. They were a mixed force, same as the rest of the Rohirrim forces.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-09-02 03:06pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Vendetta wrote:If only they'd stuck to the book, it wouldn'yt have been a problem....

In the book, the reinforcements are footsoldiers.
Not entirely foot. They were a mixed force, same as the rest of the Rohirrim forces.

J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:There suddenly on a ridge a rider appeared, clad in white, shining in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot; their swords were in their hands

The only mounted forces at Helm's Deep were Theoden's. The garrison was a thousand foot as well.

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-09-03 08:02am

About the Rohirrim vs. Orc pikes: I was under the impression that the Sassanids and the Rennisance cavalry had anti-pike countermeasures. For example, Polish Hussaria(among others) had pikes that were twice as long as the footmen's pikes. The Perisans, however, simply ducked back out of range, firing arrows and trying to take off the spearpoints.

I'm not sure about this, but the bottom line is that a cavalry force can take out a pike phalanx without archer/gun support.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-09-03 09:41am

Darth Gojira wrote: I'm not sure about this, but the bottom line is that a cavalry force can take out a pike phalanx without archer/gun support.

What about horse-mounted archers??

I know that riding on horseback increases the difficulty of aiming, but the medieval Mongols (and some Arabic and Turkish troops IIRC) were trained in horseback archery.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2003-09-03 09:36pm

Crom wrote:
Skelron wrote:You know I keep hearing this there where no Elves at Helms Deep thing, and can I just say WHO CARES. Do you want to know why I think he used the Elves at Helms deep, and why if he uses them elsewhere he has done so. Because for a movie it makes more sense, The Elves are supposed to be this Noble people, but if all they did was bugger of the Undying Lands and did nothing else for the entire war, Non Tolkien fans, those who have only seen the movie would be left with the impression not of a Noble people near the end of their time, who simply can't do anything more, but instead of a bunch of Selfish little Sh**es who left the Humans to die.
At what part of the movie did the Elves come off as terribly noble?

Take Elrond for instance, he's openly hostile towards the race of Men. At least that's how he's portrayed in FoTR.

To paraphrase: "Men are weak."

In the book the Elves did help out. Take into account that their resources were limited, as they only had a few strongholds left. Between Rivendell and Lothlorien, there was little else in the way of major Elven havens.

Thats kind of my point, if there had been no elves at Helms deep what you are left with is a group of disinterested can't be bothered nobodies, rather than a group of people who have nothing left to give.

They gathered, provisioned, and equipped the Fellowship of Nine. They provided Legolas as a member of the Fellowship. They sent Glorfindel out to face the Nazghul. The sons of Elrond rode with the Rangers. Galadriel gave Frodo special talismans that were vital to his survival later.

They did not move openly against the Shadow because they lacked the power.

Yep as I said my point, they CAN'T do anything else, but how do you portrey that in the movie, short of an hour long section on showing how little they have left you can't. The Gift giving sequance for instance only appears in the Special Edition, other things are mssing, basically if their where no Elves at Helms deep what you see is.

1.) One Elf in the Fellowship.
2.) The Lover of another in the Fellowship helping them out, possibly simply for her Love not the World.
3.) Elrond saying 'Get that RING out of my Kingdom.
4.) A sanctuary given temporary to the Fellowship.
5.) A Long time ago they did do something but now that they are leaving they can't be bothered.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-09-03 10:38pm

Darth Gojira wrote:About the Rohirrim vs. Orc pikes: I was under the impression that the Sassanids and the Rennisance cavalry had anti-pike countermeasures. For example, Polish Hussaria(among others) had pikes that were twice as long as the footmen's pikes. The Perisans, however, simply ducked back out of range, firing arrows and trying to take off the spearpoints.

Trying to take off the spearpoints? From horseback? No. It is very hard to fight on horseback, let alone to do what you are proposing, which is to cut something. That's been attempted with scythed chariots and could be done with elephants--the Persians used elephants for that purpose against the later Romans, who, at any rate, did not have Pike formations but only spear formations.

Also, have you ever ridden a horse before? Did you know that in the Renaissance the average Pike was around 15-16 feet long? Can you imagine trying to carry a thirty foot long pike, let alone wield it from horseback? This is physically impossible, and if you heard such a claim about the Polish Hussars (Hussars, btw, do not carry lances), then it is completely false. The longest pikes were twenty-one feet long, and were too unwieldy to be used from a cavalry couch. Infantry has always had the advantage against charging cavalry when disciplined and drawn up in formation.

I'm not sure about this, but the bottom line is that a cavalry force can take out a pike phalanx without archer/gun support.

No, it cannot, it never cannot--as long as order is maintained cavalry cannot charge the phalanx--the exception being if artillery first disrupts the order of the phalanx, but that was not possible until the 16th century and obviously isn't in the Middle Earth. Horses are not automatons, and riders are limited in what they can do by their position. Infantry is both more efficient and more capable in terms of their ability in carrying and deploying unwieldy weaponry.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-09-03 10:41pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
What about horse-mounted archers??

I know that riding on horseback increases the difficulty of aiming, but the medieval Mongols (and some Arabic and Turkish troops IIRC) were trained in horseback archery.

The typical phalanx would be armoured (and the Uruk-Hai definitely were), and only the first four-six ranks would have their pikes levelled for the advance. The other pikes--and the phalanx would be at a minimum sixteen and sometimes up to as many as fifty-six ranks deep--would be raised up in the air at an angle. This would create a huge "hedgehog" effect over the heads of the men that would usually entangle many arrows and disrupt them from their flight paths and prevent them from hitting at good angles or with penetrating velocity. Combined with armour, it was more than sufficient to prevent archery from having any sort of real effect against a phalanx, even in very sustained firing.

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2003-09-04 01:09am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:OK camoflauge vs. Night action...

Your still making noise especially if in that number.

Two torchlight on the walls, you will still see shadows where they are not supposed to be (mass displace etc. sorry, even if they went from looking just like the ground below them, somone on the tower is going to notice the movement from an ANGLE.

Then it's simply a matter of revealing the whole invasion by dropping something on one of them and equating the entire Aiel with the concept of 10m/s per sec accleration and what that means. (Gravity is a bitch)

As I envisioned it, it would only be a small party sneaking over the wall at first. They would secure a bridgehead, and then let the others over. Yes, torchlight would let the men tell if someone had gotten up onto the wall, but by then it would be too late for them; and though they might give an alarm, its unlikely that the Aeil could be pushed from the wall before they were reinforced.

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-09-04 07:52am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Darth Gojira wrote:About the Rohirrim vs. Orc pikes: I was under the impression that the Sassanids and the Rennisance cavalry had anti-pike countermeasures. For example, Polish Hussaria(among others) had pikes that were twice as long as the footmen's pikes. The Perisans, however, simply ducked back out of range, firing arrows and trying to take off the spearpoints.

Trying to take off the spearpoints? From horseback? No. It is very hard to fight on horseback, let alone to do what you are proposing, which is to cut something. That's been attempted with scythed chariots and could be done with elephants--the Persians used elephants for that purpose against the later Romans, who, at any rate, did not have Pike formations but only spear formations.

Also, have you ever ridden a horse before? Did you know that in the Renaissance the average Pike was around 15-16 feet long? Can you imagine trying to carry a thirty foot long pike, let alone wield it from horseback? This is physically impossible, and if you heard such a claim about the Polish Hussars (Hussars, btw, do not carry lances), then it is completely false. The longest pikes were twenty-one feet long, and were too unwieldy to be used from a cavalry couch. Infantry has always had the advantage against charging cavalry when disciplined and drawn up in formation.

The Hussaria(Winged Cavalry) were light troops by Western standads, but were extremely heavy for the Poles. At times of strong economy, the Polish kings outfitted them with 15-16ft lances. This proved of great value at the hands of Jan Sobeiskei against the Ottoman Pikemen. In fact, their mobility allowed them to reach the lines of Turks before their pike formation could stand. In short, wer'e both wrong on that argument.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-04 10:00am

ERm not even CONAN can climb that fucking fast.

get real, I live In yosemite, land where people climb sheer granite surfaces for fun. Takes severe amount of uper body strength, and your very visible and noisy doing it, if your trying to be quier about it it takes fucking forever.

literally, oh and if you fuck up at all, especially if you have friends below, gravity is a BITCH. Just ask the "Small Party" of experienced climbers who tried to scale a 60 foot wall (to get into Patrick Stewart's room at the Ahwanee)

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-09-04 10:44am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:ERm not even CONAN can climb that fucking fast.

get real, I live In yosemite, land where people climb sheer granite surfaces for fun. Takes severe amount of uper body strength, and your very visible and noisy doing it, if your trying to be quier about it it takes fucking forever.

literally, oh and if you fuck up at all, especially if you have friends below, gravity is a BITCH. Just ask the "Small Party" of experienced climbers who tried to scale a 60 foot wall (to get into Patrick Stewart's room at the Ahwanee)

Pardon me, but WTF does that have to do with the rest of the thread?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-04 10:53am

SOrry I am still hung up on the Aiel....

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2003-09-04 11:53am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:ERm not even CONAN can climb that fucking fast.

get real, I live In yosemite, land where people climb sheer granite surfaces for fun. Takes severe amount of uper body strength, and your very visible and noisy doing it, if your trying to be quier about it it takes fucking forever.

literally, oh and if you fuck up at all, especially if you have friends below, gravity is a BITCH. Just ask the "Small Party" of experienced climbers who tried to scale a 60 foot wall (to get into Patrick Stewart's room at the Ahwanee)

I never said that the first party had to climb the wall fast, and the second would have the ropes the first party let down.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-04 11:59am

Yeah, but noisy, slow climbers don't live very long.

Look, anything is possible, but its a very bad, stupid idea, and it would have had to succeed based on extreme luck, very poor defenses, and terribly trained men. And even then the Aiel would have had only a 50/50 chance.

A more likely scenario is that they bribed the gatekeepers. Happens all the time in medieval world.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-09-04 02:36pm

Skelron wrote:Yep as I said my point, they CAN'T do anything else, but how do you portrey that in the movie, short of an hour long section on showing how little they have left you can't. The Gift giving sequance for instance only appears in the Special Edition, other things are mssing, basically if their where no Elves at Helms deep what you see is.

1.) One Elf in the Fellowship.
2.) The Lover of another in the Fellowship helping them out, possibly simply for her Love not the World.
3.) Elrond saying 'Get that RING out of my Kingdom.
4.) A sanctuary given temporary to the Fellowship.
5.) A Long time ago they did do something but now that they are leaving they can't be bothered.

Expository dialogue.

They can fucking TELL the audience that they're weakened beyond the point of fighting, just like they do in the book.

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-09-05 07:37am

Darth Gojira wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Darth Gojira wrote:About the Rohirrim vs. Orc pikes: I was under the impression that the Sassanids and the Rennisance cavalry had anti-pike countermeasures. For example, Polish Hussaria(among others) had pikes that were twice as long as the footmen's pikes. The Perisans, however, simply ducked back out of range, firing arrows and trying to take off the spearpoints.
The Hussaria(Winged Cavalry) were light troops by Western standads, but were extremely heavy for the Poles. At times of strong economy, the Polish kings outfitted them with 15-16ft lances. This proved of great value at the hands of Jan Sobeiskei against the Ottoman Pikemen. In fact, their mobility allowed them to reach the lines of Turks before their pike formation could stand. In short, wer'e both wrong on that argument.

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2003-09-05 03:42pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:Yeah, but noisy, slow climbers don't live very long.

Look, anything is possible, but its a very bad, stupid idea, and it would have had to succeed based on extreme luck, very poor defenses, and terribly trained men. And even then the Aiel would have had only a 50/50 chance.

A more likely scenario is that they bribed the gatekeepers. Happens all the time in medieval world.

Ah, but bribery is something the Aeil would never think of, while they did strom the stone of tear by climibing up the walls and stroming the fortress.

It would be stupid for any medieval force to try to do something like this, but the Aeil aren't medieval-they're a mixture of Native American, Zulu, and fuedal Japanese elements. Of course it wouldn't work if the Cairhein are keeping watch, adaquetly, but we know that they're leaders are a bit stupid, and that they massivly underestimate the Aeil.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-06 08:39am

Yes, but the canonical attack of teh aiel shows just how poor of a reasearcher/ writer Mr. Jordon is. It's so improbable that I doubt even Alice would belive it, and she tries to believe 3 impossible things before breakfast.