LotR Questions

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-09-08 07:31pm

Er...how many human kingdoms are there? I know of Rohan and Gondor, and then there's Lake-town(independent?)...Gondor is a remnant of the empire of Numenor, right? But what about Rohan, where did that come from? There's mention of Umbar and Harad...those are southern human kingdoms, that allied with Sauron, right? And Angmar, is that some ancient, deserted land? Where do the Easterlings come from?

Sauron's power is limited to Mordor, right, or does he still have a foothold in Mirkwood? When Gandalf speaks of 'the Necromancer' in the Hobbit, he's talking about Sauron, right?

Also, who is Prince Imrahil- Gondor's royal line was broken at Aragon, right? Is Belfasas an independent kingdom, a vassal province, a duchy of Gondor?

RotK mentions Osgilliath being the chief city of Gondor before it was overrun- but by whom? Sauron? How long has Mordor been gaining strength? Even if it's been rebuilding for a thousand years, it was overthrown in the second age- who were the humans fighting? Each other? Why the need for massive fortresses and great armies?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-08 07:33pm

The Encyclopedia of Arda

Should be easy enough to find there.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-08 08:00pm

Well, at the time of The Lord of the Rings there are several "kingdoms" of men. The biggest and oldest one is that of Gondor. Prince Imrahil is of Dol Amroth, which I think is like a satellite state of Gondor, and there are many others in the area south of the White Mountains that are all in thrall to Gondor (IIRC).

Rohan was established by Eorl the Young, who came out of the North, though I don't know the origins further back than that. The land of Rohan was gifted to them by Gondor as long as Rohan took an oath to always come when Gondor was in need.

The Haradrim and Easterlings are two other realms of Men that pledged alliance to Sauron.

Other smaller realms of men included the Bree-folk, the kingdom of Dale (who cooperated with Erebor), Esgaroth on the Long Lake (which I think was probably a satellite of Dale), the Corsairs of Umbar and the Rangers, not to mention the Wild Men, such as the Dunlendings who helped Saruman and Ghan-buri-ghan of the Druadan Wild Men, who assisted Theoden on his way to Minas Tirith.

HemlockGrey wrote:Sauron's power is limited to Mordor, right, or does he still have a foothold in Mirkwood? When Gandalf speaks of 'the Necromancer' in the Hobbit, he's talking about Sauron, right?

Dol Guldur was the stronghold in Mirkwood that Sauron reappeared in, and it was indeed him that was the Necromancer in The Hobbit. After the fall of Barad-dur, Galadriel destroyed Dol Guldur and cleansed Mirkwood of his influence. Sauron's main stronghold is Mordor and he has much power there presumably because that's where both his stronghold and Orodruin are.

HemlockGrey wrote:Also, who is Prince Imrahil- Gondor's royal line was broken at Aragon, right? Is Belfasas an independent kingdom, a vassal province, a duchy of Gondor?

Imrahil was the next heir to the Throne of Gondor, after Aragorn. Dol Amroth is probably what you assume it to be, though. The royal line of Gondor, however, was never broken - it stopped in the South when the last king died childless, but in the North the line of Elendil remained unbroken. Aragorn, also, had a son to pass on his kingdom to.

HemlockGrey wrote:RotK mentions Osgilliath being the chief city of Gondor before it was overrun- but by whom? Sauron? How long has Mordor been gaining strength? Even if it's been rebuilding for a thousand years, it was overthrown in the second age- who were the humans fighting? Each other? Why the need for massive fortresses and great armies?

The fight against Sauron has been long indeed. The first battles in the Elder Days, however, were against Thangorodrim and the fallen Valar Melkor/Morgoth. Sauron was a follower of Morgoth. The Last Alliance of Elves and Men was formed by Gil-galad and Elendil to fight Sauron at Mordor. It was here that Isildur took the ring. I think it was during that war that Sauron overran Osgiliath and took Minas Ithil. The Men of Gondor drove Sauron out of Osgiliath but never rebuilt the city. I'm not sure what was going on with the men of Gondor during this time, but they were slowly dwindling.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-08 08:31pm

The Haradrim and Easterlings are two other realms of Men that pledged alliance to Sauron.

Tolkein implied that the haradrim and Easterlings aren't really kingdoms: they are rather categories. Gondor doesn't have a lot of contact with them. The Haradrim I think are refered to as being made of a number of small states and factions. No one knows anything about the Easterners.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-09-08 08:38pm

No one knows anything about the Easterners.

Perhaps they're made up of indepedent cities and tribesmen who practice fencing and witchcraft who are frequently at war with a mighty empire of conniving and treacherous elves.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-09-09 02:18am

At one point, Southern Gondor was an established province, and the King of Umbar swore allegience to Gondor. So, there is a kingdom, or was at one time.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2003-09-09 06:48pm

Dalton wrote: The Men of Gondor drove Sauron out of Osgiliath but never rebuilt the city. I'm not sure what was going on with the men of Gondor during this time, but they were slowly dwindling.

Wasn't there both a civil war and an assault by Mongol-esque Wainriders that sapped the strength of Gondor after the Witch King killed the last King of Gondor?

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-09-09 07:47pm

NeoGoomba wrote:

Wasn't there both a civil war and an assault by Mongol-esque Wainriders that sapped the strength of Gondor after the Witch King killed the last King of Gondor?

Yes. Infact after the fall of Sauron in the second age, Many of the outlying human kingdoms started wars. The Witch-King created the kingdom of Angmar north of Arnor and slowly crushed it into oblivion. Gondor had a series of wars with southern humans which prevented it from helping its sister-state

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-09-09 10:40pm

*Pulls out the Silmarillion*
*Sigh* I guess I'll have to try to read this thing after all...
*lights a candle*

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-09-09 10:44pm

Chardok wrote:*Pulls out the Silmarillion*
*Sigh* I guess I'll have to try to read this thing after all...
*lights a candle*

Make sure you have at least a dozen more... that book is loooooong and booooorrring. And I *LIKE* reading history books.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-09-10 12:37am

What are you talking about? The Silmarillion is great!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-09-10 02:05am

If you look at the Hobbit closely you will find that it mentions that Laketown is the reminants of Dale after Smoug destroys the town when the Dwarves were first driven out of Lonely Mountain by the Dragon.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-10 03:25am

Isolder74 wrote:If you look at the Hobbit closely you will find that it mentions that Laketown is the reminants of Dale after Smoug destroys the town when the Dwarves were first driven out of Lonely Mountain by the Dragon.

If you look at the map and actually read the story you'll find that the PEOPLE of Esgaroth are the remnant of Dale.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-09-10 02:04pm

Oh, and the book of lost tales 1.....that is some DAMN HARD reading. I mean, it reads like stereo instructions (Beetlejuice)
It's hard to follow what is going on. you almost have to make a chart so you can keep up with what passage refers to what, and WHO! God, so many names. It's worse than the bible as far as names go. Elrion second son of elebereth, son of gilgalad the strong, elf-friend to golodon, roomate to Ybsnir the wise, did say unto tohe people of the Valar, GO FORTH! to battle the sons of our enemy, too numerous to mention, but I will do so anyway! Gordoth, Morgoth, SHORGOTH, snorgoth, lordoth (YEah, all evil names end with -oth.)
That was a bit of satire, but you get the picture.
*Goes back to his silmarillion and yanking out his eyebrows one hair at a time*

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-10 05:35pm

Ugh, tell me about it. I managed to brute-force my way through #1, but Book of Lost Tales 2 I gave up on halfway through.