The newton question.... Force and Ki

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-07 01:45am

And Connor MacLeod, I'll reply to you too in the morning. And thank you as well. I've found this interesting, even if I still have a few defences in opionion with you.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-07 02:17am

Bassically the mechanisms are extreamly different. Even giving the traditional "Magical Martial Arts" fantasy fiction basis, you don't under stand the pasic principals.

A magical inner curruptionattack (Hakoto No Ken/Spirit bomb) works on the target's own energy, turning it against it's self. (It a change reaction)

The Cut attacks including frieza's planet killer (work on the same principal as a sinclair molecular chain, (It cuts through the molecular bonds but doesn't release energy (physically impossible but no transfer of energy))

The Chi "Push"/iron skin works on the principal of TK, but it's either stopping the impact/cancelling the force. same with TK flying. It's more of a question of picturing inside ones head.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-07 02:50am

Darth_Shinji wrote:Let my try a very simple version of my way of thinking so you can give me an opening opionion...I think what it is is that you see it as "If you can't prove it was the exact way then it can't (Or maybe the word should be "shouldn't"?) be considered this amount of energy."

It doesn't have to be super-precise, but you have to account for the energy. You can't say that you dropped a swimming pool of water on someone and then show a clip of what looks more like a small droplet.

While I'm thinking "If you can't prove differently, why not?"

By showing that it does not walk like a duck, look like a duck, or quack like a duck, we just did prove differently. It's not a duck.

The problem being what if I had a spell that delivered 22mts directly too the target and nothing else is affected by that 22mts? In the end that magic spell would only have to follow the rules of that magic system and not our rules of plain phyics.

The concept of "22 megatons" is defined by science. How can you say that you produce "22 megatons" and then reject the scientific definition of "22 megatons"? See "stolen concept fallacy", please.

I relise there might not be a way of comprimising our specific veiwpoints. And my way might even be the wrong way of veiwing things. But I would like to at least have both of us seeing from the others veiw point. Even if we never agree.

Shinji, what you fail to recognize is that the minute you utter the phrase "megaton", you have just introduced scientific principles. If you try to argue that those very principles you just introduced do not apply, then you are contradicting yourself. There is simply no reasonable way to cling to megaton figures while simultaneously rejecting the scientific principles from which the very concept of a "megaton" is defined.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-07 02:53am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Bassically the mechanisms are extreamly different. Even giving the traditional "Magical Martial Arts" fantasy fiction basis, you don't under stand the pasic principals.

A magical inner curruptionattack (Hakoto No Ken/Spirit bomb) works on the target's own energy, turning it against it's self. (It a change reaction)

Thats fine, but I just want to be sure that if we use this, the attacks become difficult if not impossible to quantify. And IIRC the Spirit Bomb is supposed to be able to destroy planets (then again it also is supposed to draw energy from living things - though they treat inanimate objects like the sun as living things too :S)

The Cut attacks including frieza's planet killer (work on the same principal as a sinclair molecular chain, (It cuts through the molecular bonds but doesn't release energy (physically impossible but no transfer of energy))

I thought Frieza's Planet destroyer had to blow the core of the planet first>? At least thats what happened in the Namek example. Again, not quantifiable if this is true.

The Chi "Push"/iron skin works on the principal of TK, but it's either stopping the impact/cancelling the force. same with TK flying. It's more of a question of picturing inside ones head.

Basically what I figured, although this one can be quantified

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-07 02:57am

Again, Shinji, since you have been polite and making an effort to understand what we're saying, I again suggest strongly you READ THE WEBSITE - especially those parts dealing with Trek. That gives you a very clear idea of how suspension of disbelief is applied. Then you might understand a bit better.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-07 03:00am

again it's based on myth and legend where planet's and stars have "Lifeforce" and are thus sientient like everything else. (That includes water, fire, void, earth, and wind) which are simply chemicals and their reactions (enjoy)

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-07 03:09am

Clarification Direct from Akira Torima (Creator of Dragon Ball)

The Friezia attack is a Line of sight plane it cut's between molocules and when it reaches the core of a planet destables it by cutting it in half. Again it's a TK attack creating a monomolecular wave of "Hard air".

It only works in an atmosphere, and is only limited by the atmosphere of a planet LOS effect if his finger points.

Here you go.

Source: Shonen Jump, Interview with A.T. on how Dragon Ball attacks work.

And I gennerally leave the Sandland/Dragon ball sections the fuck alone (I like Yu-Yu Hakashu, One Piece, and even Yugioh much more.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-07 03:19am

interesting. That suggests something more along the lines of non-DET though, of course. Any indication whether Frieza's attack is a "common" ability or whether its just particular to him?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-07 03:40am

Like all traditional Super powered Martial arts stories, the attacks are primarily mental, since in said legend's everything is alive. Your thresholds are the ability of the person to concieve of the image. But it's never been said to be DET. That's from AT.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-07 04:04am

Well, I think its conceivable at least some of the effects might ber DET. or at least some sort of TK attack (you can apply force to an object and fracture/stress it.. but energy might work in others.) Sort of like how in Trek despite the fact NDF is repsonsible for most of the damage mechanism, there is still some raw power to it

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-07 04:39am

Exactly connerr, also you have to remember that the effects are mental, the population of a planet has a greater mental energy then the planet it's self?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-09-07 05:03pm

Hey, where have all of you been when I've tried to muddle through against all of this crap with my insufficient knowledge time after time?

Bottom line, Shinji, the energy has to go somewhere. A 22 megaton focused implosion is still going to release 22 megatons of energy into the environment.

And are you seriously claiming that Goku wasn't charging up at all while chasing the monkey around King Kai's planet, when we already know that anger, or at least, loss of self-control, gives Z-fighters a power boost?

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-08 09:14am

consequences wrote:Hey, where have all of you been when I've tried to muddle through against all of this crap with my insufficient knowledge time after time?

Bottom line, Shinji, the energy has to go somewhere. A 22 megaton focused implosion is still going to release 22 megatons of energy into the environment.

And are you seriously claiming that Goku wasn't charging up at all while chasing the monkey around King Kai's planet, when we already know that anger, or at least, loss of self-control, gives Z-fighters a power boost?

No I'm not, but its apperent that they power down or at least turn thier TK off at times for training. How else are you going to reconcile the canon manga evedence of Goku training at 100 gs but then going ftl in his battle with Frieza? Or Gohan in the tv show bieng hurt by thier mother in SS?

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-08 09:23am

Okay, I conceed the DET thing. I can see now that my idea was contradictory.

And the TK theory sounds really accurate in my mind. Though prehapes adding it to my spell theory would explain everything about the bolt. I'm going to talk to a friend about coming up with a thoery of how Ki bolts work.

And does anyone else remember any other examples of Ki-blasts being used in magical ways? Like Buu's cholocate beam and the Ginyu frce body transfer and eraser beam?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-09 12:51am

Darth_Shinji wrote:
No I'm not, but its apperent that they power down or at least turn thier TK off at times for training.

Not always. As I pointed out, Vegeta trained as a super saiyan in a 150 gravity field in the early part of the Buu Saga (which he indicated was a "man's training level."

And there is a limit to the dergee of difference between "unpowered" and powered. Again, as I pointed out, a Super Saiyan transformation (at least level one, I'm ignoring the later levels) appears to double or triple the performance (As stated by King Kai to the other Kais) - and there are other techniques as welll (Kaio-Ken for example - but the Kamehamea can be considered a "power up" attack as well.) and they can stack (Goku has used Kaio Ken while a Super Saiyan before, and obviously Kamehamehas as well.. and there are the various "levels" of Super Saiyan too..)

There also seems to be an inverse relationship between the "amount" of increase and the duration - Kaio Ken, for example, apperas to grant a more substantial increase in power than level-1 Super-Saiyan, but its also a greater strain on the body (and the Kaio Ken itself exhibits this.) Whereas Super-Saiyan transformations appear to be able to be active for hours or days at a time with little strain for activation.

How else are you going to reconcile the canon manga evedence of Goku training at 100 gs but then going ftl in his battle with Frieza?

Simple. FTL travel is not handled in teh same way sublight travel is. One moves "faster than light" the other moves "slower than light". Most FTL travel (IE instant transmission) appears to be little more than teleportation, which does not require real "acceleration" to achieve the movement, at least not in realspace.

In other words, being able to teleport or move fTL does not affect your ability to handle G-forces.

Or Gohan in the tv show bieng hurt by thier mother in SS?

Caught unprepared. Its not like there aren't examples where one opponent substantially weaker than another gains a temporary advantage - usually by executing one single, massive burst of power that drains most or all of their reserves. The whole Vegeta/Nappa vs Z-fighters (minuis Goku) battle is an example of this.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-09 12:56am

Darth_Shinji wrote:Okay, I conceed the DET thing. I can see now that my idea was contradictory.

Okay.

And the TK theory sounds really accurate in my mind. Though prehapes adding it to my spell theory would explain everything about the bolt. I'm going to talk to a friend about coming up with a thoery of how Ki bolts work.

It seems to be a mix of some measure of DET attacks (they still create fireballs and craters remember - just because they don't shatter planets does not mean they dont neccesarily have the ability to apply DET), application of "force" - IE TK or flight, and cute tricks (IE the planet-destroying "chain reactions", transformations, the ability to create multiple verisons of yourself or regenerate, teleportation, the time stop ability of that one Ginyu-force member, etc.)

And does anyone else remember any other examples of Ki-blasts being used in magical ways? Like Buu's cholocate beam and the Ginyu frce body transfer and eraser beam?

IIRC some DBZ characters, like Piccolo, can create multiple versions of themselves. Cell's insane regeneration ability. Any form of teleportation (what you probably term as "FTL movement") etc. And as I said before, this does not invalidate the possiibilty they employ "ki" in other ways (like DET effects, or TK, or whatnot.)

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-09 07:05pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:

It seems to be a mix of some measure of DET attacks (they still create fireballs and craters remember - just because they don't shatter planets does not mean they dont neccesarily have the ability to apply DET), application of "force" - IE TK or flight, and cute tricks (IE the planet-destroying "chain reactions", transformations, the ability to create multiple verisons of yourself or regenerate, teleportation, the time stop ability of that one Ginyu-force member, etc.)

Maybe Ki-blasts cause explosions in a non-DET way? Like putting enought pressure on the atoms themselves to cause them to fission? Or some other form of moleclar activite that would result in a explosion?

IIRC some DBZ characters, like Piccolo, can create multiple versions of themselves. Cell's insane regeneration ability. Any form of teleportation (what you probably term as "FTL movement") etc. And as I said before, this does not invalidate the possiibilty they employ "ki" in other ways (like DET effects, or TK, or whatnot.)

The thing is I'm looking for effects using the ki-blast mechinisim and not other mechinism such as TK made flying and ect.

And the DTL thing was orginaly part of a reply to you, see when Goku started his training on the ship he was definatly unpowered and didn't even relise at first that the ship's gravity trainer was not reacting properly. The only explanation is that the gravity kept him from activation his TK somehow, like say breaking his concentration. Since later on he was moving so fast Kami, (who could sense ftl objects moving across the galaxy in the broli movies, or at the very least Goku's ftl spaceship moving in the Frieza saga) couldn't keep up with Goku and Frieza's final battle.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-09 08:09pm

Of course it's one thing to track something large like a jumbo jet on an airspace radar. Now try tracking say a sparrow on the same radar....

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-09 08:25pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Of course it's one thing to track something large like a jumbo jet on an airspace radar. Now try tracking say a sparrow on the same radar....

He was able to track them untill the final battle and they powered up compleatly. The Broli movie was also a human being traveling galatic distances when Kai tracked him. I just included other examples because Briolo is only canon to the GT storyline.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-10 12:51am

Darth_Shinji wrote: Maybe Ki-blasts cause explosions in a non-DET way? Like putting enought pressure on the atoms themselves to cause them to fission? Or some other form of moleclar activite that would result in a explosion?

Fission only produces energy because of certain unstable isotopes (EG certain kinds of uranium or plutonium) - fissioning say, atoms in the air we breathe would not trigger an atom bomb.

I'd be hesitant to speculate any more without observing further side effects. It might he possible though, but even then the observed effects would still limit the neergy output (IE regardless of where the energy came from - if we assumed that the matter the blast comes into contact with underwent some osrt of matter/antimatter annihilation, the energy release would still be x if it created a crater only y meters in diameter.)

The thing is I'm looking for effects using the ki-blast mechinisim and not other mechinism such as TK made flying and ect.

Krillin used a ki-blast to propel himself upwards when fighting Nappa (it was to distract him while I think Piccolo tried to grab his tail.), there's the "cutting" effect of Krillin's discs as well... the ability to "guide" shots... uhm... IIRC from Dragon Ball didn't Roshi use the Kamehameha to put out a fire?

And the DTL thing was orginaly part of a reply to you, see when Goku started his training on the ship he was definatly unpowered and didn't even relise at first that the ship's gravity trainer was not reacting properly.

Well thats ok, but even then it still limits things (like Roshi or Piccolo destroying the moon.) As I said, without assuming some sort of tremendously high "modifier" between an unpowered and powered state (which is unlikely except for something short term like Kaio-Ken) its not likely that the difference in unpowered abilities and powered abilities will be THAT great.

The only explanation is that the gravity kept him from activation his TK somehow, like say breaking his concentration. Since later on he was moving so fast Kami, (who could sense ftl objects moving across the galaxy in the broli movies, or at the very least Goku's ftl spaceship moving in the Frieza saga) couldn't keep up with Goku and Frieza's final battle.

The "movements" I've seen (ignoring the "teleportation" abilities like Instant Transmission) have always been subsonic (if a body moves faster than sound, you start creating sonic booms. Move really fast and you can start generating intense radiation and fireballs in your wake due to interaction with atmosphere.) I don't really see this as "inconsistent" with the gravitational limitations I mentioned. as I said, FTL movement doesn't operate by the same rules that sublight movement does, and they have yet to travel fast enough to exceed anything they could achieve by tens or hundreds of gravities - at least unpowered (Goku demonstarated at least once that while using Kaio Ken he can exceed the 100 gee limitation, but this is again a "short term" boost and it really drains him to do this.) This also doesnt necceasrily apply to later incidents - when I mentioned Goku going SSJ to lift the 40 ton weights, the force required to keep him upright would be enough to allow movement faster than 10-100 gravities.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-10 12:53am

Darth_Shinji wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:Of course it's one thing to track something large like a jumbo jet on an airspace radar. Now try tracking say a sparrow on the same radar....
He was able to track them untill the final battle and they powered up compleatly. The Broli movie was also a human being traveling galatic distances when Kai tracked him. I just included other examples because Briolo is only canon to the GT storyline.

Bear's point is that depending on how the tracking goes, its not neccesarily difficult. We know for example that certain DBZ fighters can "mask" their true power levels, right? This suggests that some sort of "Ki stealth" is possible, which can make tracking or detection hard. IF your opponent is not radiating much "ki", you might not be able to easily pick him up.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-10 01:02am

Also since this is a boss fight it would be the other extreme. There is so much "radio Noise" being wastefully discharged (and I dare anyone to call ripping massive craters up and throwing rocks around in temper tantrums "Not Wastefull". The detection ability at any rate was probably rendered useless covering that area because of how much Background Chi was being dumped into that location.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-10 01:37am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Also since this is a boss fight it would be the other extreme. There is so much "radio Noise" being wastefully discharged (and I dare anyone to call ripping massive craters up and throwing rocks around in temper tantrums "Not Wastefull". The detection ability at any rate was probably rendered useless covering that area because of how much Background Chi was being dumped into that location.

Ah yes. A good point. They might very well attempt to jam the opponents abilities to detect them by overloading their "sensors."

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-10 08:27am

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:

Fission only produces energy because of certain unstable isotopes (EG certain kinds of uranium or plutonium) - fissioning say, atoms in the air we breathe would not trigger an atom bomb.

I'd be hesitant to speculate any more without observing further side effects. It might he possible though, but even then the observed effects would still limit the neergy output (IE regardless of where the energy came from - if we assumed that the matter the blast comes into contact with underwent some osrt of matter/antimatter annihilation, the energy release would still be x if it created a crater only y meters in diameter.).
I knew they were a reason you couldn't fission normal materails. But I think

Krillin used a ki-blast to propel himself upwards when fighting Nappa (it was to distract him while I think Piccolo tried to grab his tail.), there's the "cutting" effect of Krillin's discs as well... the ability to "guide" shots... uhm... IIRC from Dragon Ball didn't Roshi use the Kamehameha to put out a fire?

Well thats ok, but even then it still limits things (like Roshi or Piccolo destroying the moon.) As I said, without assuming some sort of tremendously high "modifier" between an unpowered and powered state (which is unlikely except for something short term like Kaio-Ken) its not likely that the difference in unpowered abilities and powered abilities will be THAT great.
But thier is evedence that thier is a great difference. But its not really batween powered-nonpowered but when there TK is activated and when its not. Even during the Buu saga a supersaiyin Goten is hurt by his mother's punch. Or Gohan couldn't pick up a sword in un-powered training. And then both of these people are then sent thru Mountains by a enemy attack.

The "movements" I've seen (ignoring the "teleportation" abilities like Instant Transmission) have always been subsonic (if a body moves faster than sound, you start creating sonic booms. Move really fast and you can start generating intense radiation and fireballs in your wake due to interaction with atmosphere.) I don't really see this as "inconsistent" with the gravitational limitations I mentioned. as I said, FTL movement doesn't operate by the same rules that sublight movement does, and they have yet to travel fast enough to exceed anything they could achieve by tens or hundreds of gravities - at least unpowered (Goku demonstarated at least once that while using Kaio Ken he can exceed the 100 gee limitation, but this is again a "short term" boost and it really drains him to do this.) This also doesnt necceasrily apply to later incidents - when I mentioned Goku going SSJ to lift the 40 ton weights, the force required to keep him upright would be enough to allow movement faster than 10-100 gravities.

There are examples of sonic booms in the cell saga and Kami said the reason he couldn't keep was becuase there too fast for him. (I'm sorry, I should've stated that in the begin, my apologies). And while the examples of them going FTL are never there I'm not willing to say like the Ki-blast it means anything. Ki has shown pleanty of reality wrapping effects like time manupulation, moleclur activity (Freiza's death bomb) and the like. In the presence of evedence of the actaul speed I have to say that they are using TK or some other Ki-derivid power to dampen they effects of thier travel in the atmosphere.

And as I've said, all of thier strenght seems based on TK. Even as far back as DB piccolu was able to levitate three pyramids in the air. And Goku has survived being pushed thru montains non-supersaiyin.

Not to mention that Goku has at times shown worse strenght than 40 tons non-supersaiyin. He wasn't able to pick up leaden clothes before IIRC. Its just how there TK is working at the time.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-14 01:28am

Darth_Shinji wrote: I knew they were a reason you couldn't fission normal materails. But I think

Err.. think what? You didnt complete the statement.

But thier is evedence that thier is a great difference. But its not really batween powered-nonpowered but when there TK is activated and when its not.

When I say "great difference" I mean "non-super saiyan" and "super-saiyan" usually, since this is the primary modifier. Other techniques like Kamehameha and Kaio-Ken (or the Spirit Bomb) can apparently also provide short-term boosters. In general it would seem that the shorter the "boost", the higher the modifier. TK would nu default be included in this.

Even during the Buu saga a supersaiyin Goten is hurt by his mother's punch. Or Gohan couldn't pick up a sword in un-powered training. And then both of these people are then sent thru Mountains by a enemy attack.

I don't recall Goten fighting his mother, unless it took place much later in the Buu saga (After Buu was defeated.) I only remember Goten training with Gohan. Even then, as I've mentioned, its quite possible for opponents to be caught unprepared, or overwhelmed, or surprised (Goku's Kamehameha against cell combined with Instant-Transmission at the last moment, Gohan's numerous "bursts" of increased strength, Gohan being too arrogant and not finishing cell off when he has a chance, Vegeta getting overwhelmed by Trunks, Nappa nearly being cut apart by Krillin's energy disc, etc.)

And is the sword you're referring to the Z sword? The one that Old Kai was trapped in?

There are examples of sonic booms in the cell saga and Kami said the reason he couldn't keep was becuase there too fast for him. (I'm sorry, I should've stated that in the begin, my apologies).

Which person? I dont recall either Gohan or Goku (both who fought Cell - the others only fought the miniature cells) generating sonic booms when they fight - and I noticed that at the time because they WERE shocked at how fast he was moving. And later on in other instances, I still recall this.
(note that there can be good reasons why they don't always move supersonic - IIRC during the Cell Gamesa nd other examples, its been noted that usually there is a tradeoff between speed and power - you can have one but not the other, which after a fashion makes sense. Alterantely, like say in the Cell games, they might have avoided doing it to limit harm to Hercule/Satan and the others.)

but if there are sonic booms, it doesnt matter much. As I said, its not unreasonable to assume they can accelerate themselves at tens or hundreds of gees, which could easily encompass supersonic movement.

And while the examples of them going FTL are never there I'm not willing to say like the Ki-blast it means anything. Ki has shown pleanty of reality wrapping effects like time manupulation, moleclur activity (Freiza's death bomb) and the like. In the presence of evedence of the actaul speed I have to say that they are using TK or some other Ki-derivid power to dampen they effects of thier travel in the atmosphere.

I don't think you can "dampen" the effects of atmospheric travel, really. Its an inevitable side effect of the interaction with the atmosphere (they'd have to literally be fighting in a void to avoid atmospheric effects, or constantly expending at least half their total power in suppressing the side effects which would put them at a disadvantage against evil guys, who have no reason to suppress their abilities.) They might deliberately limit their travel in certain circumstnaces, or as I said there can be a tradeoff in movmeent.

And as I've said, all of thier strenght seems based on TK. Even as far back as DB piccolu was able to levitate three pyramids in the air. And Goku has survived being pushed thru montains non-supersaiyin.

I never siad it wasn't TK. In fact thats the only way they could have their super strength or speed.

Not to mention that Goku has at times shown worse strenght than 40 tons non-supersaiyin. He wasn't able to pick up leaden clothes before IIRC. Its just how there TK is working at the time.

Possibly. We dont neccesarily know how much the clothing weighs (or for that matter, what timeframe this is. If its earlier in the series, or after some major battle, he might not be in top shape, or at a "lower" power level.