The morality of necromancy

[greenmm]

I was wondering about this one. Sure it's definitely freaky to see the dead walking and fighting, but do you think it's immoral in a game to animate dead to use for your own means? The most valid argument against I think, is that the person's soul is brought back to animate the corpse, therefore it's a form of torture and slavery, and the dead should rest in peace. But what if unitelligent undead are no more alive and have souls then a robot or a puppet controlled with strings?

In a game? It depends on the mechanism involved.

If the soul is brought back, then you have some moral issues. Legal measures, however, could trump the moral issues (i.e. person was against reanimation, but the local laws allow it).

If there's no soul involved, though, then there's no true moral issue raised.

There are also cultural and religious issues in-game involved. For example, in Elizabeth Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion, elves wouldn't care if a dead elf body was turned into a skeleton or zombie, because the soul of an elf isn't tied to the body (and also why they don't bury dead elves); humans, in contrast, tend to believe in her book that the human soul is affected by whatever happens to the dead body (hence the burial of the body to protect it from "desecration"), and thus might object to zombification.

[SirNitram]

Um, since when does a law determine what is moral?

[The Yosemite Bear]

I was a big fan of Colin Wilson's Ritual in the Dark/Franenstine's castle. Which are about the use of "magik" to hunt a serial killer.

[Kuja]

But why go through all that when you can go up to any Warlock in the Orcish Horde and he'll say:

"Thok make dead guy fight. Dead guy fight good. Thok not get hurt. Thok make more dead guys fight."

Because, well, that's just a pretty crass utilization of magic, Kuja. *shakes head*

Hey, the orcs aren't exactly known for their delicacy.

Perhaps sending a zombie horde against a neighboring state just to disperse it through your miraculous powers might be useful as a popularity trick, but otherwise... It's just stunningly inefficient. You could be using them with picks, and shovels, and carts, in mines, to make lots of money for one of the most ridiculously low overheads in history. Countries with large budgets and inefficient tax collection schemes like this.

Orc zombies would fall apart before they managed to do any useful work. Besides, they're too mindless.

[greenmm]

Um, since when does a law determine what is moral?

It depends on what your morality is based off of.

If you base your morality on religion, then secular laws may or may not agree with it (i.e. Catholicism's treatment of abortion and divorce as "sins" or "semi-sins", even in an area where both are perfectly legal).

If you base your morality on culture, the situation is very similar to the religious situation; however, this is not as common anymore.

If you base your morality on a generic "right vs. wrong", then you have to have some sort of structure that defines what's right vs. what's wrong... and barring any cultural or religious influence, the only stable support left is the code of laws for the place you live.

[SirNitram]

Um, since when does a law determine what is moral?

It depends on what your morality is based off of.

If you base your morality on religion, then secular laws may or may not agree with it (i.e. Catholicism's treatment of abortion and divorce as "sins" or "semi-sins", even in an area where both are perfectly legal).

If you base your morality on culture, the situation is very similar to the religious situation; however, this is not as common anymore.

If you base your morality on a generic "right vs. wrong", then you have to have some sort of structure that defines what's right vs. what's wrong... and barring any cultural or religious influence, the only stable support left is the code of laws for the place you live.

Uh-huh. So you presume if morality is not defined by religion or culture(The source of laws), they must come from laws. You seem to be unable to conceive of morality derived from an individual; what a pity such exists.

[greenmm]

Um, since when does a law determine what is moral?

It depends on what your morality is based off of.

If you base your morality on religion, then secular laws may or may not agree with it (i.e. Catholicism's treatment of abortion and divorce as "sins" or "semi-sins", even in an area where both are perfectly legal).

If you base your morality on culture, the situation is very similar to the religious situation; however, this is not as common anymore.

If you base your morality on a generic "right vs. wrong", then you have to have some sort of structure that defines what's right vs. what's wrong... and barring any cultural or religious influence, the only stable support left is the code of laws for the place you live.

Uh-huh. So you presume if morality is not defined by religion or culture(The source of laws), they must come from laws. You seem to be unable to conceive of morality derived from an individual; what a pity such exists.

And where does the individual get the basis for their morality?

"Innate human nature"? Where's the evidence for that?

"Logic"? Logic is a learned trait, not an innate trait of humanity, making it external in its source... and therefore not from the individual.

"Common decency"? According to whose definition? What is the basis for said definition?

Show me that your morality came solely from yourself, without any external influence, and that would be evidence of your "morality by the individual".

[The Duchess of Zeon]

"Innate human nature"? Where's the evidence for that?

General traits in human behaviour which have been manifested throughout history and are shown to be broadly reoccuring in the same broad circumstances; suggesting that we respond in roughly the same way when presented with a generally similiar situation. Naturally this does not allow for an exact quantification, but certainly allows for broad trends in human behaviour to be drawn as innate; they reoccur sufficiently in history that we can establish them as the evidence of particular permanent traits or impulses of the human species.

[BlackWarMewtwo]

Gotta remember those two uses...


Here's a $50 question.

What if, in D&D 3.X at least, its a clone of yourself? They are 'born dead' so to speak (with no soul) if your still alive.

Would it be evil to clone yourself a few dozen times and animate them? They are, after all, your body. (if you die and are cloned, your soul jumps into the new clone body)

Sounds fine to me, as long as you address the ethical implications of cloning.

[BlackWarMewtwo]

I was wondering about this one. Sure it's definitely freaky to see the dead walking and fighting, but do you think it's immoral in a game to animate dead to use for your own means? The most valid argument against I think, is that the person's soul is brought back to animate the corpse, therefore it's a form of torture and slavery, and the dead should rest in peace. But what if unitelligent undead are no more alive and have souls then a robot or a puppet controlled with strings?

Most games put necromancy on the evil side of hte scale. Especially the dark world of Ravenloft. You're essentially denying the dead(Who in these games, really do have souls) their final rest.

I was wondering, isnt the "standard" Animate Dead spell just taking a given dead corpse and reanimating? IIRC It doesnt put the soul back in the body.
Although desecrating a persons corpse sure isnt a moral thing either..

This only applies to the Animate Dead spell. Any spell that brings back the deads soul and consciousness against the persons own free will is horrid.

One thing struck while I making this post...what about Undead animals?
They dont have souls. How ethically wrong is it to animate those? I mean your basicly just making an automated "robot" who should posses no rights of any kind.
This is basicly the same argument as Solauren .

That's just wrong. Animals are meant for eating.

[SecondStorm]

That's just wrong. Animals are meant for eating.

And boots are made for walking but weirdoes still find other uses for them .
Nothing stops a necromancer from eating the animals first.
And theres those blood-sacrifices to the Evil Powers(tm) remember?

[Slartibartfast]

What if they signed a contract in life that allows their corpse to be animated?

I think they did that in PlaneScape...

[BlackWarMewtwo]

Nothing stops a necromancer from eating the animals first.

A zombie risen from human race, I'd like to see that.

[BlackWarMewtwo]

Nothing stops a necromancer from eating the animals first.

A zombie risen from human race, I'd like to see that.

That was supposed to be "Human waste"

[neoolong]

Nothing stops a necromancer from eating the animals first.

A zombie risen from human race, I'd like to see that.

Dogma had poo-demons.

[Symmetry]

Um, since when does a law determine what is moral?

It depends on what your morality is based off of.

If you base your morality on religion, then secular laws may or may not agree with it (i.e. Catholicism's treatment of abortion and divorce as "sins" or "semi-sins", even in an area where both are perfectly legal).

If you base your morality on culture, the situation is very similar to the religious situation; however, this is not as common anymore.

If you base your morality on a generic "right vs. wrong", then you have to have some sort of structure that defines what's right vs. what's wrong... and barring any cultural or religious influence, the only stable support left is the code of laws for the place you live.

I just base mine off of self interest.

[Darth_Shinji]

In fact I just started reading the Death Gate cyccle that has a society with alot of necromancy in it. Thier belive system is that true death is oblivion and even the rather pathetic state of thier zombies is preferible to total lose of oneselve.

They even have retriements for zombies that have worked for along time. Letting them do what they did in thier past lives (Which is a zombie's natural impulse).

[LT.Hit-Man]

Hehehe I love playing a necromancer
Noithing like whipping up a few hundread undeads to lay waste to some backwater village