Split from EVA question(Anime = Jingoism?)

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 05:14pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:If it's intact enough to have super fucking carriers it wasn't too hard hit. And besides, when it's a US ship, UN flag one has to wonder why not just call it a US ship.
When it clearly isn't. How many times do Uts and I have to explain such?

You've said, US ship, US crew, UN flag. Exactly how is it wrong to wonder why they don't just call it US.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-18 05:17pm

Here, I'll use an analogy to display the problem with your logic, Stormbringer.

The US media does not depict the British military in a favourable light, particularly in movies.

The British Empire burned the US capital to the ground in 1812.

Therefore, the lack of British military in US media is a result of their denial over that event(This one actually has a tiny shard of truth to it, as American schools tend not to mention the fact D.C. was burned down).

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-18 05:20pm

It used to be a US ship, in the pre-Second Impact days.

The crew are most likely just American nationals, maybe so the US can still feel a sense of "ownership" of Over the Rainbow.

It's under the UN flag because the US military forces NO LONGER EXIST, as they have been ABSORBED by the UN, along with virtually all other world militaries. No country has any sort of control or influence with it's former respective units and property that now are under the full command of the new United Nations.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 05:23pm

SirNitram wrote:Here, I'll use an analogy to display the problem with your logic, Stormbringer.

The US media does not depict the British military in a favourable light, particularly in movies.

The British Empire burned the US capital to the ground in 1812.

Therefore, the lack of British military in US media is a result of their denial over that event(This one actually has a tiny shard of truth to it, as American schools tend not to mention the fact D.C. was burned down).

Except you're projecting a phenomenon that doesn't exist onto the US. Japanese refusal to deal with WW2 and it's strange tendency to avoid any sort of reminders is well established.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-18 05:28pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Here, I'll use an analogy to display the problem with your logic, Stormbringer.

The US media does not depict the British military in a favourable light, particularly in movies.

The British Empire burned the US capital to the ground in 1812.

Therefore, the lack of British military in US media is a result of their denial over that event(This one actually has a tiny shard of truth to it, as American schools tend not to mention the fact D.C. was burned down).
Except you're projecting a phenomenon that doesn't exist onto the US. Japanese refusal to deal with WW2 and it's strange tendency to avoid any sort of reminders is well established.

Trust me, there's no projection. Most nations tend to mention things like their capitol city burning down in enemy hands(Or your own, Fire of London). The Americans don't, and have a 'strange tendency' to gloss over 1812 and any reminders.

That should, of course, sound familiar.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-09-18 05:31pm

Without getting into the debate, I'd like to point out that A) The War of 1812 is hardly 'glossed over', seeing as how it's in every history textbook I've ever seen, and B) To my knowledge, the War of 1812 did not involve multiple massacres and warcrimes. But I could be wrong.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-18 07:58pm

Therefore, the lack of British military in US media is a result of their denial over that event(This one actually has a tiny shard of truth to it, as American schools tend not to mention the fact D.C. was burned down).

Nope, American textbooks do not ignore the torching of D.C. anymore than they ignore the destruction of the Alamo or the Battle of Little Big Horn.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-18 08:39pm

Durran Korr wrote:
Therefore, the lack of British military in US media is a result of their denial over that event(This one actually has a tiny shard of truth to it, as American schools tend not to mention the fact D.C. was burned down).
Nope, American textbooks do not ignore the torching of D.C. anymore than they ignore the destruction of the Alamo or the Battle of Little Big Horn.

The textbooks mention it, yes. The actual schoolwork I've seen skips the entire section, but that might just be local bias.. In either case, maxima mea culpa.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-19 01:07am

Stormbringer wrote:Except you're projecting a phenomenon that doesn't exist onto the US. Japanese refusal to deal with WW2 and it's strange tendency to avoid any sort of reminders is well established.

But what about the US movies and their tendancy to gloss over everybody else's part in history? I submit U-571 and Saving Private Ryan as prime examples of US moives saying "We are better than everyone! Every turning point for the better has been because of us!"

So which is worse, Stormy: the Japanese entertainment industry glossing over the bad points of their own past or the US entertainment industry glossing over the good points of everybody else's history?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-19 01:25am

SirNitram wrote:
Trust me, there's no projection. Most nations tend to mention things like their capitol city burning down in enemy hands(Or your own, Fire of London). The Americans don't, and have a 'strange tendency' to gloss over 1812 and any reminders.

Washington wasn't burned, a couple of its public buildings where, and it was in 1814.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-19 01:28am

I should also add that the War of 1812 is kind of acknowledged on a daily basis, with the singing of the national anthem at sporting events.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-09-19 11:16am

Stormbringer wrote:If it's intact enough to have super fucking carriers it wasn't too hard hit. And besides, when it's a US ship, UN flag one has to wonder why not just call it a US ship.

I'm not sure, should the persian gulf Air Forces be called the US Air Force? I mean, they mostly fly F-4s and F-5s...

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-09-19 11:31am

Slartibartfast wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:If it's intact enough to have super fucking carriers it wasn't too hard hit. And besides, when it's a US ship, UN flag one has to wonder why not just call it a US ship.
I'm not sure, should the persian gulf Air Forces be called the US Air Force? I mean, they mostly fly F-4s and F-5s...

And F-14s (Iran), F-15s (Saudi Arabia) and F-16s (Israel).

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-19 01:47pm

Iirc Japan and GB have had very good relations for a long time. During the late 1800s to the early 1930s much of japan society, government and the court system been modeled after GB.

Well, yes and no. First off, the Japanese government was actually modelled after the German model! The germans at the time did have some democratic institutions, but really were based around the King, and the Japanese liked this. Although some of their top men did think the British system had mroe to offer, the majority of the Meji reformers afavored the german model.

I'm not going to get too deeply into history, but Japan and Britain did not really get along too well. They managed to avoid war and all, but the japanese always resented Britain's power, particularly naval power. Still, as far as it went, they cooperated on a purely self-interested level.

But what about the US movies and their tendancy to gloss over everybody else's part in history? I submit U-571 and Saving Private Ryan as prime examples of US moives saying "We are better than everyone! Every turning point for the better has been because of us!"

Saving Private Ryan was historically accurate as far as it went. U-571 was, in fact, widely condemned by critics for its historical twisting as for its bad acting. In any event, you may have a point, but this doesn't mean that Japan is innocent in this regard, either.

Its true that most US movies don't portray other militaries. However, this is slightly different from when the Japanese take obviously US power structures and, as its so obnoxiously stated "pussify" them. Its a sort of slap-in-the-face type thing.

And its probably true to some degree that the mecha things are a sort of "penis envy", however crassly that's is.

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2003-09-23 03:23am

Stormbringer wrote:More likely it's Japan's hard headed refusal to acknowledge that the US has a military. The usual fucked up cultural denial stemming from WW2. They hide any US military not being ripped apart by the Giant Japanese Phallic Symbol-bot behind the UN and all that even when it's clearly intended to be US.

If you think NGE is bad about Japanese jingoism, I suggest you avoid Read or Die like the plague. Let me put it like this: the President in RoD wets himself and a Japanese liberarian is more dangerous than the entire US navy.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-23 03:28am

Eva is not jingoistic, and that RoD example doesn't sound like jingoism, either...

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2003-09-23 07:37am

Symmetry wrote:
... and on the other hand... And on the gripping hand

"Mote in God's Eye" reference!

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-09-23 09:34am

jeez...i am cut off from the internet for 4 days because my campus IT department insists on making everyone sign a form that our computers are free of blaster and patched (mine was, long before...but..idiots everywhere) and my thread spawned split ballons into this??!

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-23 09:34am

Japanese liberarian is more dangerous than the entire US navy.

Yeah, but RoD is alittle whacked even by the standards of most anime.

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2003-09-23 11:06am

ggs wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
... and on the other hand... And on the gripping hand
"Mote in God's Eye" reference!

Glad someone noticed

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2003-09-23 11:14am

I'd actually recomend Gasaraki for the cool mechs. The disapointing ending and the politics mean I won't recomend you buy it, but its worth renting. The anit-US in it can probably be summed up as follows:

1: US gets its but kicked by mechs employed by an evil western corporation.

2: Said evil corporation uses its pull in the US military to set some members of it into conflict with our (Japanese) heros.

3: Due to a drought, the US stops exporting rice and Japan faces crisis. See "Japan is a small isolated trading nation precariously cut adrift in a hostile world."

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-23 11:16am

Crossover_Maniac wrote:If you think NGE is bad about Japanese jingoism, I suggest you avoid Read or Die like the plague. Let me put it like this: the President in RoD wets himself and a Japanese liberarian is more dangerous than the entire US navy.

I don't know about Eva. Haven't seen it yet though I'm borrowing a friend's DVDs. I don't think that it's so much jingoism as the no-US military thing is a rather fucked up reaction to WW2.

Of course RoD sounds like it's getting into that and worse but I've never seen it and never had any desire to.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-09-23 04:07pm

Crossover_Maniac wrote: If you think NGE is bad about Japanese jingoism, I suggest you avoid Read or Die like the plague. Let me put it like this: the President in RoD wets himself and a Japanese liberarian is more dangerous than the entire US navy.

English librarian of Japanese descent. Her last name is "Readman", she's at least second-generation.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-09-24 05:42am

Andrew J. wrote:
Crossover_Maniac wrote: If you think NGE is bad about Japanese jingoism, I suggest you avoid Read or Die like the plague. Let me put it like this: the President in RoD wets himself and a Japanese liberarian is more dangerous than the entire US navy.

English librarian of Japanese descent. Her last name is "Readman", she's at least second-generation.

Plus, her partner's surname is "Drake". Also, besides a couple of them, all of the I-Jin clones are figures from Western history.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-09-24 03:23pm

I should add GitS: SAC for for throwing in the United States Empire which is probably a jab at Bush Jr.