Mordor in Medieval Earth

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-09-21 08:32pm

Around the same time the Mongols invade Europe, the Golden Hoard is replaced by Sauron and all of his minions, as of the War of the Ring. Mordor proper is located somewhere north of the Crimean Penninsula, and the One Ring is located somewhere in Western Europe. How well does the Dark Lord do in place of the Mongolian Hoard?

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-09-21 08:35pm

Balrog wrote:Around the same time the Mongols invade Europe, the Golden Hoard is replaced by Sauron and all of his minions, as of the War of the Ring. Mordor proper is located somewhere north of the Crimean Penninsula, and the One Ring is located somewhere in Western Europe. How well does the Dark Lord do in place of the Mongolian Hoard?

Mordor would be effctively protected from attack from the West, but vulnerable from the East.

However, since the Ring will corrupt whoever owns it, Sauron wins by default.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-09-21 08:51pm

...what's going to attack Mordor from the East? Tibet?

Does Sauron get his vassal-states and tributary kingdoms? They did provide him with a large portion of his manpower.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-09-21 09:23pm

HemlockGrey wrote:...what's going to attack Mordor from the East? Tibet?

Does Sauron get his vassal-states and tributary kingdoms? They did provide him with a large portion of his manpower.

Nope, though he could try to do the same with any surrounding nations, and he gets the Nine and thier Fell Beasts.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-09-21 09:57pm

Sauron's armies are mostly huge levies of orcs, trolls, and various other infantry beasties, right? They can secure the area immediately around the Crimea (possibly the area of modern Ukraine). The area is populated by disorganized steppe horsemen, who can probably be very troublesome but not fatal.

But they're going to come up short and hard after that. To give an idea of what they're facing, the Rus are to the North, Poles and Hungarians are to the West, and the Turks and Khwarizmians lie to the south.

Sauron might be able to take on the Rus, but I wouldn't want to be their commander. He'd be taking an army based on infantry into an incredibly vast flatness, with punishing weather conditions, to take on army based on light-medium cavalry; which is incidentally probably commanded by Alexander Nevsky. No, I wouldn't want to be a part of that army.

They can expand through the caucasus, and from there either into Persia or Anatolia. In Persia they are faced with a very large, wealthy empire whose army is based on a mix of heavy and light cavalry. In Anatolia they are faced with the Seljuk Turks, who can muster up a large army of horse archers and are very experienced and successful warriors. This is not a good idea.

The west is worse. Trying to face a foot army of goblins, trolls, and various ugly beasties against big, tough armies that deftly mix western heavy cav with Eastern light cav is suicide.

If you put Mordor in, for example, Switzerland they might be able to perform over limited distances thanks to unfavorable terrain. But putting them on the steppes in the company of five of the toughest cavalry armies of the medieval period is just mean.

Sauron's only hope is to intimidate his enemies into becoming vassals by judicious use of frightening beasties, which may or may not work. He could also wait for the One Ring to do his job for him. But if tries to go out there and conquer his way to Western Europe, he's going to get hurt.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-21 11:50pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Sauron's armies are mostly huge levies of orcs, trolls, and various other infantry beasties, right?

In the books they had some cavalry, mostly in the form of humans serving Sauron. But it's not enough to face the powers surrounding Mordor in this scenario and I fully agree with you analysis. Though there is a flaw in this scenario, since it specifies all of Sauron's minions yet if Mordor center on the Crimean then the Black sea would have to be completely filled in to provide enough space for Mordor and the supporting humans to the south. A better position would be further east and north, perhaps with Northern Mordor centered on what is now Volgograd.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-09-22 02:08am

Or say replace Turkey with Mordor

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-09-22 02:13am

Turkey didn't exist at the time. It was part of the Eastern Roman Empire.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-22 02:25am

Crayz9000 wrote:Turkey didn't exist at the time. It was part of the Eastern Roman Empire.

And removing it defeats part of the purpose of the scenario.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-09-22 06:03am

I imagine the Ringwraiths would definitely prove a problem to any poor guy who tries to fight them, mainly because of the whole fear inducing factor, and the WK's unkillability. "All blade perish..."[i/]. The fact that they are allowed the fell beasts, this helps tip it in Sauron's favour.

Also, from what is seen of Sauron, he seems to take long, deliberate steps, ie; not striking till he knew exactly that he was going to win. I know he lost, but that was out of his control. He'd wait for allies to form, armies to grow, and the such, I imagine that the power of Mordor wouldn't be impressive/scary enough to get a lot of people to fall into line.

As a note, PJ states that the Siege of Minas Tirith Army will number 300,000.

This is all I can think of right now, I just got the Book of Lost Tales.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-09-22 07:35am

From interviews I have seen about Minas Tirith (as Gandalf said) it is numbered in 300,000 troops and it is also said that Mordor is throwing everything they have at them so I would imagine Mordors standing army is 300,000 - 500,000. Even the Eastern Roman Empire (or Byzantium) had a standing army of 500,000 at some points. I can't say for sure their size at the time of the Golden Horde which was about 1240-ish as far as I know. I think ignoring the ring effecting people and leaving it down to just military might I would say Russia and the Eastern Roman Empire could easily stand up against Mordor if properly motivated. Mordor is technologically inferior and if they are anything like the Urak-hai at Helms Deep they are tactically inferior.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-22 08:03am

Gandalf wrote:I imagine the Ringwraiths would definitely prove a problem to any poor guy who tries to fight them, mainly because of the whole fear inducing factor, and the WK's unkillability. "All blade perish..."[i/]. The fact that they are allowed the fell beasts, this helps tip it in Sauron's favour.

And yet this effect only seems to work against armies already broken by heavy losses and overwhelming enemy attacks.

As a note, PJ states that the Siege of Minas Tirith Army will number 300,000.

200,000, and meanwhile the book suggests perhapes 45,000 were in fact present.

fgalkin2 · Post by **fgalkin2** » 2003-09-22 12:38pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Gandalf wrote:I imagine the Ringwraiths would definitely prove a problem to any poor guy who tries to fight them, mainly because of the whole fear inducing factor, and the WK's unkillability. "All blade perish..."[i/]. The fact that they are allowed the fell beasts, this helps tip it in Sauron's favour.

And yet this effect only seems to work against armies already broken by heavy losses and overwhelming enemy attacks.

As a note, PJ states that the Siege of Minas Tirith Army will number 300,000.

200,000, and meanwhile the book suggests perhapes 45,000 were in fact present.

Either way, things go very bad for Sauron if he attempts a direct invasion. However, he could possibly try to subvert the European monarchs. Giving the Russian princes some of the lesser artifacts would probably bring them to his side.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-09-22 04:42pm

If you're saying that Mordor is going to go on the offensive with 200,000 or more soldiers, you're smoking something. There simply isn't a farming infrastructure north of the Black Sea capable of supporting that many men, let alone the near-carnivorous orcs. One of the reasons that all of the armies in the theater are cavalry based is because they're the only army that can exist in large numbers on the steppe; they can fan out to graze and forage and then quickly assemble in mass for battle. If Sauron brings that many infantry to the table, 75% of them are going to be static.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-09-22 04:48pm

LMAO...
When I first saw this thread, I thought it said Mordor in Middle Earth. I was like, "Uh huh....AND?!"

SecondStorm · Post by **SecondStorm** » 2003-09-22 07:14pm

Super-Gagme wrote:From interviews I have seen about Minas Tirith (as Gandalf said) it is numbered in 300,000 troops and it is also said that Mordor is throwing everything they have at them so I would imagine Mordors standing army is 300,000 - 500,000. Even the Eastern Roman Empire (or Byzantium) had a standing army of 500,000 at some points. I can't say for sure their size at the time of the Golden Horde which was about 1240-ish as far as I know. I think ignoring the ring effecting people and leaving it down to just military might I would say Russia and the Eastern Roman Empire could easily stand up against Mordor if properly motivated. Mordor is technologically inferior and if they are anything like the Urak-hai at Helms Deep they are tactically inferior.

IIRC the Golden Horde numbered 150k. Many of these were vassal troops though. The two forces invading Hungary and Poland in 1241 were at 50k and 20k respectively.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-09-22 07:19pm

it is also said that Mordor is throwing everything they have at them

No, the novel quite clearly states that the first onslaught was only a feeler. Mordor was attacking on several fronts, but the main thrust was at Minas Tirith. However, when Sam and Frodo are in Mordor they see huge armies massing and more troops pouring in from the east.

In fact, Gandalf even states that the only way to delay Mordor's inevitable conquest is to draw the Eye north and off of where Frodo is going, because Sauron can easily overwhelm the West in the second attack.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-09-22 08:22pm

fgalkin2 wrote: Either way, things go very bad for Sauron if he attempts a direct invasion. However, he could possibly try to subvert the European monarchs. Giving the Russian princes some of the lesser artifacts would probably bring them to his side.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I was thinking the same thing, Sauron still has 4 (or was it 3?) of the surviving Dwarf rings...

*images Ringwraith walking into the court of the Russian Grand Prince*
"A present from Lord Sauron..."

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-23 08:44am

HemlockGrey wrote:
No, the novel quite clearly states that the first onslaught was only a feeler.

No it says that the first direct assault on the citys walls was a feeler, not the whole assembled force.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-09-23 05:41pm

No, I'm pretty certain it says that the first attack against Gondor was a feeler.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2003-09-24 12:30pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:
No, the novel quite clearly states that the first onslaught was only a feeler.
No it says that the first direct assault on the citys walls was a feeler, not the whole assembled force.

It was not Sauron'd full might. His assault on Minas Tirith was with the forces he had available. He was planning on gathering more before he attacked.

He was rushed though because Aragorn used the Palantir and by virtue of his bloodline was able to rip control of all the seeing stones away fro Sauron. Sauron assumed that Aragorn would only expose himself like this because he had the ring. So Sauron hurried his assault in hopes of destoying the city and capturing or killing Aragorn before Aragorn learned how to fully use the ring.

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Mordor in Medieval Earth

Mordor in Medieval Earth

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