"Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

[Ralin]

So, just realized that this guarantees Cait Sith will be back. No way in hell does Butcher give one of Harry's friend a lightsaber and let the asshole named Sith stay dead.

Still waiting for confirmation that I'm right about what Lacuna is.

[Gaidin]

Why would that guarantee anything about an actual mythological character?

[Ralin]

Because I literally cannot believe that Butcher will let that good of an opportunity for Star Wars references pass.

I mean I was already pretty sure he wasn't dead, but thus clinches it.

[DireApostasy]

Because I literally cannot believe that Butcher will let that good of an opportunity for Star Wars references pass.

I mean I was already pretty sure he wasn't dead, but thus clinches it.

Except... Caith Sith has nothing to do with Star Wars, and that "Sith" is pronounced closer to "She" than Sith a la Star Wars.

[Ralin]

Harry has already made the red lightsaber joke. So clearly Cait Sith pronounces it that way and Harry either doesn't know or doesn't care about the etymology.

[LadyTevar]

I also don't think Cait Sith is dead. He is going to come back in some way, shape, or form. It's simply a question of how.
1. Come back as a puppet of the Others. He was pretty much 'broken' by that fight.
2. Reborn as another Malk takes up the Mantle. Mantles are taken up as needed, or as emptied. Why should the legendary Cait Sith be different?
3. Purified by Mab.

[Ralin]

So, that knife Harry found. I and a lot of other people have been speculating that it's the head from the Lance of Longinus attached to a knife hilt. But really, Butcher is a good enough writer to know that people would see through a fake out like that, and frankly it would be a clumsy one. Problem is, there aren't really about Jesus-related alternatives unless it was one of his carpentry tools.

There is, however, a possibility in the same general mythology. I can't remember if the story specifically says Abraham was going to use a knife to sacrifice Isaac, but if not it seems like the logical way for him to go about it. And in a setting where it's been established that faith empowers things it seems like the knife which the founder of Judaism/Christianity/Islam was going to use to kill his son because God told him to, and whose son was going to let him do it, would be a Big Deal.

Hell, Nicodemus mentions the story himself at the Gate of Blood.

[Steve]

It doesn't fit. Every other item listed is one that matches the Crucifixtion and Resurrection story; the burial shroud, the INRI placard, the Grail, and the Crown of Thorns. Just because most people will get it doesn't mean it's "clumsy" as a fake-out, it's just how the story flows from the point of view from Harry, who clearly doesn't see a need to specify what the blade is, and while I don't have a copy of the book with me at work I'm pretty sure I remember Harry knowing, in general, what the blade actually is.

From my knowledge, here are two claimed copies of the Holy Lance/Lance of Longinius in history and mythology; the one that ended up in the Holy Roman Empire's crown jewels collection, and the Holy Lance of Antioch found in the First Crusade. In both cases, it was the blade proper.

Edit: A glance at wiki confirmed two more: a Holy Lance kept in Armenia, and the ones from Paris and Rome which were likely the same relic but with the point broken off. The former ended up sold to King Louis IX of France by the Latin Emperor of Constantinople during the short-lived Latin Empire, the latter was seized by the Turks in the Fall of Constantinople and then gifted to Pope Innocent VIII as further inducement to keep the Sultan's brother a prisoner in Rome. The point kept in Paris was lost sometime after the French Revolution, while the main body gifted by the Turks remains in Rome.

[LadyTevar]

The blade would be the important part, it was the part that touched the Blood. The shaft may have been separatef to become a relic in its own right, but it would not be as indestructable as the Blade.

[Steve]

What's interesting to note about the Holy Lance in Vienna is that it's not believed to be the Lance of Longinus, but rather a lance containing a nail from the crucifixtion.

[Siege]

I suspect the folded cloth isn't the burial shroud but the loincloth the big JC wore when he was crucified.

[Ralin]

It doesn't fit. Every other item listed is one that matches the Crucifixtion and Resurrection story; the burial shroud, the INRI placard, the Grail, and the Crown of Thorns. Just because most people will get it doesn't mean it's "clumsy" as a fake-out, it's just how the story flows from the point of view from Harry, who clearly doesn't see a need to specify what the blade is, and while I don't have a copy of the book with me at work I'm pretty sure I remember Harry knowing, in general, what the blade actually is

Abraham sacrificing Isaac (or being prepared to) is supposed to presage God sacrificing Jesus. And I'm not seeing any particular reason to turn the Lance into a knife, though admittedly it would probably make for a really badass blasting rod) and it would presumably look strange enough for Harry to take note.

So yeah, I think it could be argued to fit, while still not being obvious.

[Steve]

I think you're going a bit too far out of a belief that it's "too obvious". There's not much to the idea of putting a spear blade on a hilt, and again, every presentation of the Lance of Longinus/Holy Lance tends to have it without an actual spear shaft but just the blade portion.

Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is the most likely; in a bunch of artifacts all clearly linked to the Crucifixion, it's more logical that the knife also has something to do with it directly as opposed to thematic linking in the Bible.

[Alkaloid]

In all honesty, if it is just the spear head with a bit of the shaft attached you could call that a knife. There's no reason to believe its not directly connected to the crucifixion except abrahamic religions haven't playbe a massive direct role in the story so far.

Frankly though that's starting to change, and I can deal with the reason it hadn't been massively involved being that its big guns gave been locked away so no one can tank the planet playing with them.

[Darth Yan]

A lot of feminists are still upset that butters got the sword considering that the entire reason it broke was because he ignored both Harry and Murphy and spied on the meeting with Nicodemus. They also dislike Murphy getting badly beaten or not being worthy for some reason

[Steve]

I can see why that's said, and I was honestly expecting Charity to get it for the inversion of the Carpenter family's old status quo. On the other hand, the decline of Murphy has been noted since "Ghost Story". She's lost a lot in the past couple of years, including the job that formed the core of what she viewed herself as. She was, as a cop, pure in her devotion to the law and refusal to waver in the corrupt Chicago system. Now? She's openly aligned with the likes of Lara Raith and John Marcone to fight greater threats. Her decisions since "Changes" are justified, but it's clear that her need to get involved with criminals and monsters has damaged her sense of self.

And then Harry, an old friend and someone she's gaining romantic feelings for, has his life threatened and she's just supposed to let it happen because of the rules of the Sword? Yeah, Nicodemus had her pegged in that scene.

I wouldn't write Murphy out yet, though. The best stories frequently involve breaking a character down and then seeing him or her crawl back and triumph. Modern medical science might have her pegged at just "90%" at best following recovery, but who knows what else might heal her? And, well... there's still one more Sword that needs a wielder. And it's rather fitting, since while Murphy's faith may be shaken, she still has love....

[Ralin]

A lot of feminists are still upset

Judging from the way the feminist I introduced to the series reacted from book one I think this can be assumed as a given.

And really, Butters was clearly in the right. Dresden was acting shady, and finding out that the Winter Knight is a member of Nicodemus's Evil League of Evil really isn't the time to be given the benefit of the doubt.

Seriously, Murphy solo-ed Nicodemus and damned near killed him. Something Michael had never done. She lost because of a rule that really only makes sense in a worldview she doesn't buy into, and even then he admitted himself he's not sure it would have worked if she hadn't added that extra bit of judgement. And it ultimately led to the sword becoming even stronger. I feel Murphy's awesome credentials are safe here

[Gaidin]

Seriously, Murphy solo-ed Nicodemus and damned near killed him. Something Michael had never done. She lost because of a rule that really only makes sense in a worldview she doesn't buy into, and even then he admitted himself he's not sure it would have worked if she hadn't added that extra bit of judgement. And it ultimately led to the sword becoming even stronger. I feel Murphy's awesome credentials are safe here

That's mostly because they played by different rules. Michael, as a Knight, was to give Nicodemus an opportunity to turn from his ways. This always gave Nicodemus a guaranteed opportunity to respond to Michael with full force. Murphy was fighting dirty and to win. That's something that, while you're allowed to do once the fight really starts as a Knight(see Book 5 where one Knight gave the Fallen the "Talk" while the other two were hiding away in ambush), it's not so easy to pull on Nicodemus, obviously. And it's just not how Michael really thought, whereas, that's how Murphy had to start playing the game as a human in the supernatural world.

[Ralin]

Eh. I'm going to speculate that Michael this is the first time ever thrown the "You can still repent" spiel at Nicodemus. Can't prove it, but given the way Nicodemus talks and given how we've seen previous fights with him go down...yeah, I don't think Michael has ever been in a position to do it before. Pretty sure every previous confrontation he was too busy fighting for his life try it. Fighting, and likely losing.

[Terralthra]

Eh. I'm going to speculate that Michael this is the first time ever thrown the "You can still repent" spiel at Nicodemus. Can't prove it, but given the way Nicodemus talks and given how we've seen previous fights with him go down...yeah, I don't think Michael has ever been in a position to do it before. Pretty sure every previous confrontation he was too busy fighting for his life try it. Fighting, and likely losing.

Quite possibly, but Michael has given the same opportunity to other Denarians in other stories in front of Harry, and we know that Shiro had faced Nicodemus before, and Nicodemus was both afraid of Shiro and eager to take a deal which would trade one of the more powerful wizards on the planet for him. That suggests that Shiro had given that speech before to Nicodemus, or at least that someone has.

[Ralin]

Oh sure, but that's fucking Shiro and it's made pretty clear that Shiro > Michael and Sanya, by a wide margin.

I'd also be surprised if this wasn't the first time Nicodemus was desperate enough to try the surrendering his coin gambit. Especially given how he laughed at Cassius for it.

[LadyTevar]

I will remind folks that Michael was not holding back anymore. Nicodemus had rejected Forgiveness once again, and Michael started fighting not to cripple, but to WIN. The only thing that saved Niccy's neck was desperation.

And then the Sword is reborn as a freakin' lightsaber, and all that Nicodemus had worked for went down the tubes. He'd lost not just the two battles, not just two of the Coins, but his closest ally and the only person in the world who loved him unconditionally. As Dresden said, Niccy'd just had the worst day of his entire inhuman life.

[Ralin]

I will remind folks that Michael was not holding back anymore. Nicodemus had rejected Forgiveness once again, and Michael started fighting not to cripple, but to WIN. The only thing that saved Niccy's neck was desperation.

Yes, there's that too. And it also seems likely Michael was just flat out stronger/more powerful/more skilled than he ever had been before due to the effects of Uriel's grace, though there's no way to quantify how much.

Of course, it also means that next time Nicodemus is going to be more dangerous than ever, what with him being desperate and having nothing to lose, and likely crazed with grief and hate.

Oh, and I'd say it's more or less confirmed now that one of the Swords can breach the noose's protection, at least to the best of Nicodemus's knowledge.

[PKRudeBoy]

Of course, it also means that next time Nicodemus is going to be more dangerous than ever, what with him being desperate and having nothing to lose, and likely crazed with grief and hate.

But Nicodemus isn't personally much stronger then the other Denarians, he's a clever bastard with two millennia of experience behind him. Crazed Nic is a less effective enemy then methodical, Machiavellian Nic. And that's not even counting the fact that he just accidentally put several undoubtably powerful artifacts into play for his greatest nemesis.

[Gaidin]

But Nicodemus isn't personally much stronger then the other Denarians, he's a clever bastard with two millennia of experience behind him. Crazed Nic is a less effective enemy then methodical, Machiavellian Nic. And that's not even counting the fact that he just accidentally put several undoubtably powerful artifacts into play for his greatest nemesis.

Yea, but Nic now has nothing to lose. Absolutely nothing. He's got no power base, his wife, at least, is smart enough to eventually discover the truth and have her gunning for him, since they sometimes fight each other as much as the world or the good guys. The most he's got is his real world bank accounts for assets. Hell the Church might be able to move against those once the story really starts spreading with Michael's testimony. Who knows. But he's got his information, his artifact, his angel who probably doesn't even like how badly he let himself get played and might want a new master, basically drive him to an anything goes style play on Dresden. That man, is probably going to be full out desperate for revenge next time we see him. Butcher could take it anywhere.