Alucard vs Lasombra Elder

[SecondStorm]

Strength. The weak Methusalah has a strength of 6, which is pretty strong, then add the ability to up their stats by ten, and you get 16, which tosses about 8,000lbs around. Then add a Potence of 7 (I'm being nice here) and the strength goes up to 23, which after some calculations...14=5000,
15=6000, 16=8000, 17=10000, 18=12000, 19=15000, 20=20000, 21=25000, 22=30000, 23=35000 maybe 40000. That's 35,000lbs that they can pick up...being nice. It's probably more like 40,000 lbs.

minor nitpick:

By expending bloodpoints a Kindred can only raise his Physical Attributes to 10 max. If you dont believe me check Vampire the Masquerade page 138 .

The Strength chart goes: 11=2000,12=3000,13=4000,14=5000 and 15=6000. Based on that I think its safe to assume that each extra level adds another 1000. Im curious where you got that list though .
This brings the total to 17(=7000 lbs)with Potence 7(which is very low). Thats quite different from your 40000 lbs wouldnt you say ?

I think we are being somewhat unfair to limit the Lasombra Methuselah to only his Clan Disciplines. In my games Methuselahs(IF they absolutely must have stats)then I say around 60-80 based on the Methuselah. This average is taken from the few publications WW have made which contains Methuselahs with stats.

[Symmetry]

Just a quick side note on Alucard's gun...

Based on the markings on the slide and the visuals in the anime, Alucard's handgun is a single-stack, double-action semiautomatic chambered for the .454 Casull round. It is normally loaded with blessed anti-vampire rounds -- assuming these are otherwise equivalent to full power Casull rounds, we're looking at 360-grain bullets at a muzzle velocity of 1500 feet per second.

Its actually a 10" "long slide" variant which can yield a higher muzzle velocity ... but in reality the Casull is only available in revolver chambering, not semiautomatic. And thats only powerful by "human" standards - Alucard's Jackal is far more powerful than any human gun.

In the Manga, the Casull also demonstrates an ability to hit targets up to a kilomter away. This is far beyond the ability of any nomral pistol.

Is it really? Lets see, 1500 ft/s is 457 m/s. Assuming a 45" angle and no air resistence. Thats 323 m/s up, which means it will arc at 33 seconds, and hit ground at 66. At 323 m/s of forward velocity, thats 21310 m, which is 13.2 miles. Now, assuming away air resistence is probably utterly aphysical, since its going to lose energy at a rate porportional to its velocity, but it actually starts at more than 1500 ft/s, and 12.2 miles is a lot to spare.

[Stormbringer]

I think he's refering to the accuracy of the gun, not simple range.

[Captain Cyran]

Strength. The weak Methusalah has a strength of 6, which is pretty strong, then add the ability to up their stats by ten, and you get 16, which tosses about 8,000lbs around. Then add a Potence of 7 (I'm being nice here) and the strength goes up to 23, which after some calculations...14=5000,
15=6000, 16=8000, 17=10000, 18=12000, 19=15000, 20=20000, 21=25000, 22=30000, 23=35000 maybe 40000. That's 35,000lbs that they can pick up...being nice. It's probably more like 40,000 lbs.

minor nitpick:

By expending bloodpoints a Kindred can only raise his Physical Attributes to 10 max. If you dont believe me check Vampire the Masquerade page 138 .

Actually, you can raise it as high as you want but it drops down to the highest you can go (In this Methuslah's case, in three turns. I don't have the book on me but I got the info off of my brother and he knows his V:tM. You could be correct though.

The Strength chart goes: 11=2000,12=3000,13=4000,14=5000 and 15=6000. Based on that I think its safe to assume that each extra level adds another 1000. Im curious where you got that list though .
This brings the total to 17(=7000 lbs)with Potence 7(which is very low). Thats quite different from your 40000 lbs wouldnt you say?

True, but if you look at it, strength does not go by a linear scale, it's more like a hyperbola, or is that Parabola...anyway it's a curved line upwards. Getting greater as you get higher, much like how Vampires of lower generation start getting progressively power (Antideluvians are considered play things to Caine as seen in The Book of Nod.). The list is an assumption of my brothers and mine, using a hyperbola to determine strength as opposed to a linear way. As such it's not very accurate, but it works for out purposes. And considering that Potence could be far more than just another dot of strength, it might leave my calcualtion in the dust.

I think we are being somewhat unfair to limit the Lasombra Methuselah to only his Clan Disciplines. In my games Methuselahs(IF they absolutely must have stats)then I say around 60-80 based on the Methuselah. This average is taken from the few publications WW have made which contains Methuselahs with stats.

We aren't limiting to just those clan disciplines, since it's a Methusalah it's a good guess that it has Celerity, Potence, and Fortitude, which are pretty common vampire abilities.

[SecondStorm]

Actually, you can raise it as high as you want but it drops down to the highest you can go (In this Methuslah's case, in three turns. I don't have the book on me but I got the info off of my brother and he knows his V:tM. You could be correct though.

I just checked again. Your brother must be getting rusty. I am correct .

Note: No character may increase Physical Attributes above 10

True, but if you look at it, strength does not go by a linear scale, it's more like a hyperbola, or is that Parabola...anyway it's a curved line upwards. Getting greater as you get higher, much like how Vampires of lower generation start getting progressively power (Antideluvians are considered play things to Caine as seen in The Book of Nod.). The list is an assumption of my brothers and mine, using a hyperbola to determine strength as opposed to a linear way. As such it's not very accurate, but it works for out purposes. And considering that Potence could be far more than just another dot of strength, it might leave my calcualtion in the dust.

As long as you realize that it is just an assumption on your part and as such not applicable to vs-debates . A Potence dot count on the same level as a Strength dot on the Strength chart.

We aren't limiting to just those clan disciplines, since it's a Methusalah it's a good guess that it has Celerity, Potence, and Fortitude, which are pretty common vampire abilities.

Telepathic Assault(Auspex 8 ) would fuck up Alucard real good while the Lasombra Methuselah would be quite safe in his Tenebrous Form(Obtenebration 5). Also Dementation(espicially Total Insanity would be quite fun to see. Alucard as a drooling idiot

[Stormbringer]

Telepathic Assault(Auspex 8 ) would fuck up Alucard real good while the Lasombra Methuselah would be quite safe in his Tenebrous Form(Obtenebration 5). Also Dementation(espicially Total Insanity would be quite fun to see. Alucard as a drooling idiot

That assumes he can't counter them or simply avoid them. What conditions do those require and how are they used?

Alucard has at least some telepathy of his own (speaking to Victoria in her head) so it's not a forgone conclusion he'd be unable to resist.

[Symmetry]

I think he's refering to the accuracy of the gun, not simple range.

Yeah, but isn't that just a matter of the tolerences the gun is built to? I mean, sure, it would be really hard to get a 10" barrel to be that accurate, but thats just a matter of throwing money at the project, nothing undoable.

[Stormbringer]

I think he's refering to the accuracy of the gun, not simple range.

Yeah, but isn't that just a matter of the tolerences the gun is built to? I mean, sure, it would be really hard to get a 10" barrel to be that accurate, but thats just a matter of throwing money at the project, nothing undoable.

I'm not a firearms expert you'd have to ask them.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think he's refering to the accuracy of the gun, not simple range.

Yeah, but isn't that just a matter of the tolerences the gun is built to? I mean, sure, it would be really hard to get a 10" barrel to be that accurate, but thats just a matter of throwing money at the project, nothing undoable.

You should talk to Rob Wilson. He's the one whom I discussed it with (his knowledge of ballistics being infinitely superior to mine insofar as I know.)

All I can really point out is that if your theory was true, why are there no handguns with a mile range? The only kind of rifle I know of that can do that is an Antimaterial rifle.

(we should also note that the only class of guns nearly as heavy as Alucard's - ie 16 kilo - are AMRs. And while this isn't exactly proof neccesarily, the Hellsing RPG guide has Alucard's guns as being comparable in power to Seras' rifle, which is definitely an AMR - 13.7 mm supposedly, but probably either a modified Barret light .50 or a Steyr 14.5 mm)

[Connor MacLeod]

As long as you realize that it is just an assumption on your part and as such not applicable to vs-debates . A Potence dot count on the same level as a Strength dot on the Strength chart.

Not neccesarily. I've gone over this. High level potence allows things like lifting and throwing of cars rather effortlessly (and we're probably still talking level 5 or less, not high end), which is a good couple tons at least. Were Potence just "another dot in strength", this would be rather impossible. Lets also note taht Potence = automatic strength success, which suggests FAR greater capability than normal strength. In fact the "Ghouls: Fatal addiction" reference of strength:potence comparison I mentioned suggests one dot of potence could be equal to as many as 5 dots of strength.

Cyran - I dont know if this is valid or not (and I forget if I mentioned this or not), but a Strength level of 8 in an Amenti allows lifting of one of the blocks of an Egyptian pyramind (multi-ton lifting capability, insofar as I determined.) - I dunno if that will help your calcs though. I believe Str 7 gave strength equal to the jaws of a crocodile..

[Connor MacLeod]

Telepathic Assault(Auspex 8 ) would fuck up Alucard real good while the Lasombra Methuselah would be quite safe in his Tenebrous Form(Obtenebration 5). Also Dementation(espicially Total Insanity would be quite fun to see. Alucard as a drooling idiot

Alucard's used to telepathic attacks and has broken them, even ones capable of affecting the entire estate.

[Captain Cyran]

Actually, you can raise it as high as you want but it drops down to the highest you can go (In this Methuslah's case, in three turns. I don't have the book on me but I got the info off of my brother and he knows his V:tM. You could be correct though.

I just checked again. Your brother must be getting rusty. I am correct .

Note: No character may increase Physical Attributes above 10

Aww, drat, yeah that'll mess with the stats some.

True, but if you look at it, strength does not go by a linear scale, it's more like a hyperbola, or is that Parabola...anyway it's a curved line upwards. Getting greater as you get higher, much like how Vampires of lower generation start getting progressively power (Antideluvians are considered play things to Caine as seen in The Book of Nod.). The list is an assumption of my brothers and mine, using a hyperbola to determine strength as opposed to a linear way. As such it's not very accurate, but it works for out purposes. And considering that Potence could be far more than just another dot of strength, it might leave my calcualtion in the dust.

As long as you realize that it is just an assumption on your part and as such not applicable to vs-debates . A Potence dot count on the same level as a Strength dot on the Strength chart.

An assumption yes, but it is far more accurate then believing Strength to go on a linear scale, when in previous dots and in most other things in V:tM it does not. And although we counted Potence as only one strength it's probably more like two strength at least, since rolling two die is almost guaranteed to get you one success.

We aren't limiting to just those clan disciplines, since it's a Methusalah it's a good guess that it has Celerity, Potence, and Fortitude, which are pretty common vampire abilities.

Telepathic Assault(Auspex 8 ) would fuck up Alucard real good while the Lasombra Methuselah would be quite safe in his Tenebrous Form(Obtenebration 5). Also Dementation(espicially Total Insanity would be quite fun to see. Alucard as a drooling idiot

Don't underestimate Alucard, I'd say he's at least a little less powerful than a Methusalah. We've seen this guy do some pretty crazy stuff and in the end even if the Methusalah was 1000 times stronger, he couldn't truly kill Alucard as far as I've seen in this thread.

[Stormbringer]

Fixed some of the broken quotes. Doesn't anyone use the preview function.

[SecondStorm]

Telepathic Assault(Auspex 8 ) would fuck up Alucard real good while the Lasombra Methuselah would be quite safe in his Tenebrous Form(Obtenebration 5). Also Dementation(espicially Total Insanity would be quite fun to see. Alucard as a drooling idiot

That assumes he can't counter them or simply avoid them. What conditions do those require and how are they used?

Alucard has at least some telepathy of his own (speaking to Victoria in her head) so it's not a forgone conclusion he'd be unable to resist.

You look a person into the eyes or touch him/her/it and whammo his mind goes *splat*(2-3 application on a person with Willpower 10 will render him catatonic or kill him...yes kill him).Each application takes 3 seconds. The only defence known is the persons Willpower. A normal person got 3 btw. Theres a chart in Werewolf the Apocalypse which states that only 0.5 % of the total mortal population got 10 Willpower. Someone on Alucards lvl Id assume to have 8-9 though maybe 10. This is based on WW publications with references to 4th-5th generations. Dracula himself have 9 IIRC.
Dementation 5:
Same MO as Telepathic Assault only that a person inflicted can expend 5 Willpower points each turn to negate all of his 5 acquired Derangements. A Derangement is a mental condition like severe amnesia, schizophrenia, catatonia, depression etc etc. Derangements is not a trifling matter in WoD. It adds to the whole "angst" theme .

Only certain mystical defences....these WILL work. But they are rare. Please show me when Alucard have shown an immunity to telepathic assaults . Just being a telepath himself wont work.


Offtopic:
Stormbringer: Is the broken quotes my fault? Cus I messed around to get the proper quoting and it wouldnt be past me to mess such things up .

[SecondStorm]

As long as you realize that it is just an assumption on your part and as such not applicable to vs-debates . A Potence dot count on the same level as a Strength dot on the Strength chart.

Not neccesarily. I've gone over this. High level potence allows things like lifting and throwing of cars rather effortlessly (and we're probably still talking level 5 or less, not high end), which is a good couple tons at least. Were Potence just "another dot in strength", this would be rather impossible. Lets also note taht Potence = automatic strength success, which suggests FAR greater capability than normal strength. In fact the "Ghouls: Fatal addiction" reference of strength:potence comparison I mentioned suggests one dot of potence could be equal to as many as 5 dots of strength.

Cyran - I dont know if this is valid or not (and I forget if I mentioned this or not), but a Strength level of 8 in an Amenti allows lifting of one of the blocks of an Egyptian pyramind (multi-ton lifting capability, insofar as I determined.) - I dunno if that will help your calcs though. I believe Str 7 gave strength equal to the jaws of a crocodile..

The Strength chart on VtM page 202

"The Potence Discipline also adds its dots to the characters effective Strength."


On the Mummys rather odd Strength: Its stated in MtR(Mummy the Resurrection)that Mummies Physical Attributes(e.g. Strength Dexterity and Stamina)is NOT the same as "regular" WoD publications.

On "Ghouls Fatal Addiction": The author on that piece about Potence doubling a person strength is an NPC-character called Douglas Netchurch a 7th generation Malkavian. The fact alone that he is Malkavian would invalidate his opinion . In short that piece is "fluff" for lack of better terms. Its not canon rules as represented by WW.

Nowhere in that(or in any other for that matter) book does it say that a Potence dot = 2 Strength dots on Strength chart. However it does say: "The Potence Discipline also adds its dots to the characters effective Strength".

[SecondStorm]

An assumption yes, but it is far more accurate then believing Strength to go on a linear scale, when in previous dots and in most other things in V:tM it does not. And although we counted Potence as only one strength it's probably more like two strength at least, since rolling two die is almost guaranteed to get you one success.

The rules clearly state that "The Potence Discipline also adds its dots to the character's effective Strength".
From 11-15 in Strength it "levels out" at 1000 lbs at each dot of Strength.
Therefore I think its more than reasonable to assume
that it adds 1000 lbs per dot above 15 wouldnt you agree ?

The explanation regarding Potence granting automatic succeses is that Kindred know how to utilize their strength better than mortals.
Hence the part about Potence not just being supernatural strength.

[Don't underestimate Alucard, I'd say he's at least a little less powerful than a Methusalah. We've seen this guy do some pretty crazy stuff and in the end even if the Methusalah was 1000 times stronger, he couldn't truly kill Alucard as far as I've seen in this thread.

It would take a Justicar + Archons to handle him. And Im not talking about those pussified Justicars that currently preside. Im talking about someone like Karl Schreckt, A 5th gen Tremere with 60+ Discipline dots and 40+ Thaumaturgy Path dots + Rituals. Anything less would be mincemeat..

[Connor MacLeod]

The Strength chart on VtM page 202

"The Potence Discipline also adds its dots to the characters effective Strength."

It also says you can throw cars, vans, and trucks. Which would basically exceed the force required to simply lift them (and which the numbers don't account for.) I am not good at doing stress calcs, but I expect the "damage to physical objects" examples might also exceed the stated strength capabilities, if I can remember what little Mike has said in the past.

On top of that, you completely ignore one of the chief distinctions between Potence and strength being that Potence grants AUTOMATIC successes. That alone suggests that any equating it to strength is in fact conservative.

On the Mummys rather odd Strength: Its stated in MtR(Mummy the Resurrection)that Mummies Physical Attributes(e.g. Strength Dexterity and Stamina)is NOT the same as "regular" WoD publications.

Page number?

On "Ghouls Fatal Addiction": The author on that piece about Potence doubling a person strength is an NPC-character called Douglas Netchurch a 7th generation Malkavian. The fact alone that he is Malkavian would invalidate his opinion . In short that piece is "fluff" for lack of better terms. Its not canon rules as represented by WW.

1.) Mr Netchurch is also a scientist. His "information" is very consistent with the information presented in the book itself, and simply referring to his affiliations by no means addresses the validity of his statment.

2.) Prove that the "fluff" as you call it is less applicable to analysis than the game mechanics, since usually its the opposite that is argued for - and also prove that you are not violating the principle of consistency by selectively "picking and choosing" among the evidence.

Nowhere in that(or in any other for that matter) book does it say that a Potence dot = 2 Strength dots on Strength chart. However it does say: "The Potence Discipline also adds its dots to the characters effective Strength".

Its implied. You do realize what "conservative estimate" means, don't you?

[SecondStorm]

It also says you can throw cars, vans, and trucks. Which would basically exceed the force required to simply lift them (and which the numbers don't account for.) I am not good at doing stress calcs, but I expect the "damage to physical objects" examples might also exceed the stated strength capabilities, if I can remember what little Mike has said in the past.

On top of that, you completely ignore one of the chief distinctions between Potence and strength being that Potence grants AUTOMATIC successes. That alone suggests that any equating it to strength is in fact conservative.

The Kindred know how to utilize their supernatural part-telekinetic strength for better effect than simple mortals.

Page number?.

I dont own the book unfortunately . One of my players does though. Ive read it in there.
Do you own it by any chance ? Then we can also confirm just how much it actually says at each level of Strength from 6-8.

1.) Mr Netchurch is also a scientist. His "information" is very consistent with the information presented in the book itself, and simply referring to his affiliations by no means addresses the validity of his statment.

He is a Malkavian. He is mad. Theres a reason for the insanity plea.

2.) Prove that the "fluff" as you call it is less applicable to analysis than the game mechanics, since usually its the opposite that is argued for - and also prove that you are not violating the principle of consistency by selectively "picking and choosing" among the evidence.

Page 29 in Ghouls Fatal Addiction.
At the top "Hard-and-Fast Rules"
I think game mechanics overrule fluff in all cases. Point me to a game where it does not.
If you want to speculate on fluff created by a loony NPC scientist then be my guest. Just dont expect me to buy it.


But lets for argument sake say that I believe Dr Netchurch is not having a "weird" moment :

Nowhere in that(or in any other for that matter) book does it say that a Potence dot = 2 Strength dots on Strength chart. However it does say: "The Potence Discipline also adds its dots to the characters effective Strength".

Its implied. You do realize what "conservative estimate" means, don't you?

Ive found the part you are referring to about Potence doubling a ghouls lifting capability.
Page 17 line 11 on Ghouls: Fatal Addiction
Exact wording is this:
"Strength comes easily enough, and the newly ghouled individual may more than double his lifting capacity with no training".

I believe you base your 1 dot of potence = 2 dot of Strength-theory on that quote?

Remember that an average person got 2 in Strength which means he/she can lift 50 lbs according to VtM page 202.
Potence adds 1 extra which gives a total of effective Strength + Potence at 3.
3 in effective Strength + Potence means he/she can lift 125 lbs according to VtM page 202.
125 lbs is more than double 50 lbs.

Am I making myself clear?

[SecondStorm]

I made a mistake in that post above .
That should have been 100 lbs and 250 lbs.
I converted it to kilos..

The current Feat of Strength chart is this
1 = 40 lbs
2 = 100 lbs
3 = 250 lbs
4 = 400 lbs
5 = 650 lbs
6 = 800 lbs
7 = 900 lbs
8 = 1000 lbs
9 = 1200 lbs
10 = 1500 lbs
11 = 2000 lbs
12 = 3000 lbs
13 = 4000 lbs
14 = 5000 lbs
15 = 6000 lbs

Its the same in the 3 core rules book I can currently check:
Vampire the Masquerade 3rd Edition page 202
Vampire the Dark Ages 3rd Edition page 228
Werewolf the Apocalypse 3rd Edition page 197

[Connor MacLeod]

It also says you can throw cars, vans, and trucks. Which would basically exceed the force required to simply lift them (and which the numbers don't account for.) I am not good at doing stress calcs, but I expect the "damage to physical objects" examples might also exceed the stated strength capabilities, if I can remember what little Mike has said in the past.

On top of that, you completely ignore one of the chief distinctions between Potence and strength being that Potence grants AUTOMATIC successes. That alone suggests that any equating it to strength is in fact conservative.

The Kindred know how to utilize their supernatural part-telekinetic strength for better effect than simple mortals.

Page number?.

I dont own the book unfortunately . One of my players does though. Ive read it in there.
Do you own it by any chance ? Then we can also confirm just how much it actually says at each level of Strength from 6-8.

He is a Malkavian. He is mad. Theres a reason for the insanity plea.

Being Malkavian in no way proof that he is an incompetent scientist, especially since he appears to have been employed in this particular research for years now. Sorry, no dice.

Page 29 in Ghouls Fatal Addiction.
At the top "Hard-and-Fast Rules"

Says no such thing regarding fluff vs game mechanics.

I think game mechanics overrule fluff in all cases. Point me to a game where it does not.

Irrelevant. Subjective interpretations and opinions cannot replace analysis unless you are deliberately attempting to introduce bias.

If you want to speculate on fluff created by a loony NPC scientist then be my guest. Just dont expect me to buy it.

Since oyu seem to be far removing yourself from the concept of "suspension of disbelief" to begin with, I don't expect much consistency from your arguments at all period.

But lets for argument sake say that I believe Dr Netchurch is not having a "weird" moment :

Ive found the part you are referring to about Potence doubling a ghouls lifting capability.
Page 17 line 11 on Ghouls: Fatal Addiction
Exact wording is this:
"Strength comes easily enough, and the newly ghouled individual may more than double his lifting capacity with no training".

I believe you base your 1 dot of potence = 2 dot of Strength-theory on that quote?

Remember that an average person got 2 in Strength which means he/she can lift 50 lbs according to VtM page 202.
Potence adds 1 extra which gives a total of effective Strength + Potence at 3.
3 in effective Strength + Potence means he/she can lift 125 lbs according to VtM page 202.
125 lbs is more than double 50 lbs.

Am I making myself clear?

So what? Thats what we call a low end. 5 dots of strength suggests one dot of potence is equal to 650 pounds lifting. Which fits with the statement. Its called etsablishing upper and lower limits (in this case, several lower limits.)

[SecondStorm]

I think I have shown plenty of suspencion of disbelief thank you.
I myself am not the sanest of individuals .
Playing Vampire for 8 years will do that to you .

If you wish to believe a piece of fluff over hard rules then be my guest.
White Wolf is supposed to be a fluid system which you may disregard at will if you want.
What works for you works for you.

You have yet to provide a theory that satisfies me though.
If you can bother to draw it up properly then I would love to hear it.
IIRC your only argument in your theory about a potence dot being equal to 5 strength dots(or how much was it again?) is a vague reference from a fluff piece.
Which I may add I just presented a much simpler regarding that.
And I still dont see why we should credit fluff pieces more than hard rules .

[Connor MacLeod]

I think I have shown plenty of suspencion of disbelief thank you.
I myself am not the sanest of individuals .
Playing Vampire for 8 years will do that to you .

If you wish to believe a piece of fluff over hard rules then be my guest.
White Wolf is supposed to be a fluid system which you may disregard at will if you want.
What works for you works for you.

How amusing. You say you are not the sanest of individuals, yet say you have made a valid point. Yet you want to in the same breath dismiss the evidence of someone on the basis THEY are insane? How utterly hypocritical.

You have yet to provide a theory that satisfies me though.

Thankfully, satisfying you is not a requirement. Its not the first time I've run into deliberate ignorance.

If you can bother to draw it up properly then I would love to hear it.
IIRC your only argument in your theory about a potence dot being equal to 5 strength dots(or how much was it again?) is a vague reference from a fluff piece.
Which I may add I just presented a much simpler regarding that.
And I still dont see why we should credit fluff pieces more than hard rules .

LEt me tell you a little clue: Suspension of Disbelief requires a strong adherence to the scientific method, which frowns upon inconsistent and arbitrary/opinionated factors. Like saynig "I think game mechanics are superior to fluff, therefore I am going to ignore them."

On top of that, you clearly demonstrate lack of understanding of what upper and lower limits are.

[SecondStorm]

How amusing. You say you are not the sanest of individuals, yet say you have made a valid point. Yet you want to in the same breath dismiss the evidence of someone on the basis THEY are insane? How utterly hypocritical.

Lighten up. Itll do you good.
Didnt I just say that I would accept Dr Netchurch statements?. Cus I checked his other articles from other products. For all practical purposes Ill accept his statement.

Thankfully, satisfying you is not a requirement. Its not the first time I've run into deliberate ignorance.

Have you provided more evidence than one vague reference?

LEt me tell you a little clue: Suspension of Disbelief requires a strong adherence to the scientific method, which frowns upon inconsistent and arbitrary/opinionated factors. Like saynig "I think game mechanics are superior to fluff, therefore I am going to ignore them."

On top of that, you clearly demonstrate lack of understanding of what upper and lower limits are.

Please outline your theory then.
The lower limits are 1 Potence = 1 Strength dot.
That is substantuated by this quote:
"The Potence Discipline also adds its dots to the characters effective Strength." The quote exist in at least 1 other WW publication(namely Vampire the Dark Age).

The Upper limits are 1 Potence dot = 2 Strength dots.
Correct? If not please show me the error of my ways .
And provide page numbers and quotes if you dont mind.

I didnt include the Mummy Strength as neither of us have been able to provide adequate proof(e.g. page number and sourcematerial).

[Connor MacLeod]

Lighten up. Itll do you good.
Didnt I just say that I would accept Dr Netchurch statements?. Cus I checked his other articles from other products. For all practical purposes Ill accept his statement.

Then why the hell did you waste my time by dismissing him because "he's mad?" I tend to react very poorly to people who waste my time with pointless nitpicking.

Have you provided more evidence than one vague reference?

No, there are dozens of other people here who have been involved in attempts at objective analysis of both sides.

Just how many people have you seen here discussing concepts like "Force" and "energy"?

Please outline your theory then.
The lower limits are 1 Potence = 1 Strength dot.
That is substantuated by this quote:
"The Potence Discipline also adds its dots to the characters effective Strength." The quote exist in at least 1 other WW publication(namely Vampire the Dark Age).

How about generating multiple results and scenarios? Is there something against having a range of results? Thats generally what you do in sci fi analysis, after all.

The Upper limits are 1 Potence dot = 2 Strength dots.
Correct? If not please show me the error of my ways .
And provide page numbers and quotes if you dont mind.

We've been past this, shithead. Now you're just wasting my time with your ignorance of proper debating method. You wouldn't happen to be a latent rabid Fiver, woudl you?

I didnt include the Mummy Strength as neither of us have been able to provide adequate proof(e.g. page number and sourcematerial).

There's more to proof than just providing page numbers and source materials you dumbass.

[SecondStorm]

We are getting nowhere.

Ill have a swing at this objective analyses thing.
So far I got:

Low end:
Str10+Potence9(A Lasombra Methuselah can have max 9 in his Disciplines)=19
19 on the Strength chart should be:
10000 lbs

High end:
Str10+Potence9=+(9x2)=28
28 on the Strength Chart should be:
19000 lbs

I have no idea wheather the capability to lift 19k lbs would actually be enuff to throw a car. But at least that was is implied on the Strength chart.
But its still less than 40k lbs than I originally objected against before Connor engaged in his rather-onesided flamefest.

Comments?