The OotS Thread III

[Imperial Overlord]

Yeah. And two flamestrikes and a quickened cause light wounds (which could be anywhere from 1-5 depending on feats and items). He could have a lot of spells left over.

[Crazedwraith]

Well, you called it.

Kind of wish I hadn't. Poor Durkon.

What's the betting the next tavern the order visits is just chock-a-block with dwarven clerics?

Seriously though, I wonder if the Order will replace him. I'd expect it to be an existing character though and the only ones close to filling Durkon's holy role would be the paladins. Hinjo or Lien maybe? Lien would be cool to even out the genders more.

Oh of course there is another Paladin. O-Chuul. But I think he'd out badass the rest of the order so he's out. On the other hand having him in the ORder would make sense for the final throw down with Xykon and the MitD

[Napoleon the Clown]

I'm pretty sure O-Chuul is a Paladin, not a Cleric.

[Crazedwraith]

You're right. Typo. I meant another paladin as well as Hinjo and Lien.

[Alkaloid]

Well Durkon is dead... but is he about to be Vampired?

Seems likely. Malack seems to want to like his 'children,' so I think he would vampire him even if it is optional.

Soul wise Durkon is probably OK, given that he seemed to think he could resurrect Malack, and that woiuld lead to Malack being restored to his old, pre vampire self, so Durkon as we know him is likely dead until/if he is resurrected. Belkar might be in a bit of strife now though.

Seriously though, I wonder if the Order will replace him.

I kind of doubt it. Maybe in the early strips, yeah, but now that the story has gone past easy jokes about minmaxing and shitty people making dumb characters having him be actually dead and leaving a hole in the party has more impact.

[Terralthra]

Durkon isn't the only one who can resurrect, though it's up in the air if his soul would wish to return. Being good, he'd probably weigh his contribution to saving the world above staying in heaven.

Hell, Malack might be able to do it, though that seems unlikely.

[Irbis]

No, he hasn't. At roughly 15th level with Wisdom bonus and Domain spells, Malack should have most of his low level spells and 1/2 to 2/3rds of his 5th level + spells.

The thing is, OotS forums currently have him at level 11 because all the templates and racial stuff he has really eat up levels, in most estimates he his almost Xykon-level in ECL (but not CR).

What's the betting the next tavern the order visits is just chock-a-block with dwarven clerics?

Seriously though, I wonder if the Order will replace him. I'd expect it to be an existing character though and the only ones close to filling Durkon's holy role would be the paladins. Hinjo or Lien maybe? Lien would be cool to even out the genders more.

Oh of course there is another Paladin. O-Chuul. But I think he'd out badass the rest of the order so he's out. On the other hand having him in the ORder would make sense for the final throw down with Xykon and the MitD

What about Durkon's girlfriend from the beginning of the strip? Fans been speculating he might have left her with "surprise" after that night, she might have interest in saving him.

Ochul is barely more than a fighter and the OotS are all much higher level than him. Xykon effortlessly paralysed him once, I don't see him being of much use. He can tank encounters that were crafted for him to make a good show, not stuff of OotS CR level.

[Serafina]

How guaranteed is it that Durkon leaves the Order?

Being evil mostly means a loss of compassion, a willingness to actively destroy other peoples life.
But he'd still be lawful, and he has promised Roy to aid him. Lawful Evil characters still care about promises, tradition and loyalty - and those were the strongest aspects of Durkons personality (more lawful than good, as opposed to Roy who was more Good than Lawful, as stated in the afterlife). A Evil Durkon could be a very interesting member of the Order, so i really hope he stays.

[Crazedwraith]

OK, I'm not expert on D&D. But I always assumed O-Chuul was higher level than the Order. He's like the most experienced member of the Saphire Guard.

Xykon effortlessly handling him doesn't prove much. He could have done that to any of the order. He did do it to supped up V as well.

edit: Serafina. If Durkon gets vamped isn't he going to be under Malak's sway and under his agenda? Also Malak's dialogue implies that he sees himself as a different person as he was pre-vamping. So he might not regard himself as bound by alive!Durkon's promises.

[Serafina]

Right, forgot it works that way in D&D. Yes, a Vampire is under the control of its creator until said creator is destroyed or voluntarily frees him.

Mind you, i wouldn't be surprised if Malak did the latter. Otherwise he might get killed and turning Durkon back to live might be the next goal for the Order.

[Imperial Overlord]

The thing is, OotS forums currently have him at level 11 because all the templates and racial stuff he has really eat up levels, in most estimates he his almost Xykon-level in ECL (but not CR).

So? That's the just the forums, where people post that they think that casting "familicide" was a good act. The forums aren't binding at all. I don't buy that Malack is 11th level at all. Everything I've seen indicates he's at least as capable a cleric as Durkon. He's the one that helps Durkon with spell research and introduce him to things like Macebook, not the other way around.

[Irbis]

OK, I'm not expert on D&D. But I always assumed O-Chuul was higher level than the Order. He's like the most experienced member of the Saphire Guard.

edit: Serafina. If Durkon gets vamped isn't he going to be under Malak's sway and under his agenda? Also Malak's dialogue implies that he sees himself as a different person as he was pre-vamping. So he might not regard himself as bound by alive!Durkon's promises.

Miko said to Hinjo she is strongest SG Paladin, while he is second. So, Ochul is third at best. Granted, he raked in a lot of XP doing battles for Xykon's amusement, but so did everyone else in meantime.

As for Durkon, he is under Malack's control unless the latter decides to release him. Ironically, Malack might be too weak to control both Durkon and Belkar, so the only option he has left is killing the halfling or keeping him conventionally dominated.

As for the different person, I understood it like 200 years of experiences dwarfing his 'alive' life and resurrecting him would get rid of these memories, leaving only confused shaman that ceased to exist long ago. But yes, becoming undead might shift Durkon's priorities, Haley's monologue when she thought Roy might be undeaded pretty much said so.

So? That's the just the forums, where people post that they think that casting "familicide" was a good act. The forums aren't binding at all. I don't buy that Malack is 11th level at all. Everything I've seen indicates he's at least as capable a cleric as Durkon. He's the one that helps Durkon with spell research and introduce him to things like Macebook, not the other way around.

Wrong. He was scared of Durkon's Turn Undead, failed to Dispel Durkon, failing both of these are very unlikely for someone equal to Durkon. Also, highest level spell we saw him cast was doable by 11th level Cleric. 11 levels of Cleric + 2 racial HD of Lizardfolk + 1 LA of Liazrdfolk + 8 LA of Vampire = 22 levels at minimum, unless Tarquin and rest of his party are all Epic and more than match for Xykon when together even 11 levels is pushing it. It's math, not opinions. Him helping Durkon is easily explainable by Empire's worth of clerical texts at his disposal and having much more experience with negative energy magic or just researching the spell himself beforehand.

[Grumman]

I know he loses his spells but does he keep his abilities post transformation?

Depending on version he will only lose his domains not his spells (Unless domain specific). He's not good with Thor anymore but he can draw on negative energy to fulfill the same requirements. Think about it, Vampire Fighters can still fight, Vampire rangers still hate things, Vampire Barbarians still rage and Vampire Sorcs/Wizards are even nastier. Clerics maintain their edge as well, they only lose access to their old domains and rebuke becomes command undead. They get to pick new domains (Death,Chaos and Evil plus splat books for things like Undeath).

I think he loses everything. He's a divine spellcaster, and that means that unlike Fighters, Sorcerers, Monks, etc, he doesn't have exclusive control over the power he draws upon. Malack might use an Atonement spell and his own influence to turn Durkon into a fully functioning evil cleric, but that's quite a few days off.

[Imperial Overlord]

Wrong. He was scared of Durkon's Turn Undead, failed to Dispel Durkon, failing both of these are very unlikely for someone equal to Durkon.

Wrong. He countered Durkon's Turn. He didn't show fear. As there are feats, magic items, and ability stat modifiers that can increase turning ability, this shows caution. A conservative fighting style is what we can expect from Malack. Since dispel has a 50/50 chance at equal level, failing that is fairly likely for someone of equal level.

Also, highest level spell we saw him cast was doable by 11th level Cleric. 11 levels of Cleric + 2 racial HD of Lizardfolk + 1 LA of Liazrdfolk + 8 LA of Vampire = 22 levels at minimum, unless Tarquin and rest of his party are all Epic and more than match for Xykon when together even 11 levels is pushing it. It's math, not opinions. Him helping Durkon is easily explainable by Empire's worth of clerical texts at his disposal and having much more experience with negative energy magic or just researching the spell himself beforehand.

Wrong. He himself stated that it's almost impossible for him to find suitable challenges. Malack is centuries old and can easily be higher level than Tarquin who is near epic if not epic level. Also Xykon is an epic level lich and easily capable of besting a 15th level cleric with lizard men and vampire level adjustments, probably while making a crack at crappy optimization choices. I wouldn't be surprised if Malack, Tarquin and the rest of their party are a roughly equal max for Xykon and his chief minions. Also, if Malack isn't close to the level of everyone's favorite goblin cleric, then he's going to punked in the inevitable showdown.

[Ralin]

He himself stated that it's almost impossible for him to find suitable challenges. Malack is centuries old and can easily be higher level than Tarquin who is near epic if not epic level.

Just want to point out, that would still be true if he was 11th level. He''d still count as 22nd level or higher for XP purposes.

[Ted C]

I officially want Malack reduced to ash.

[AniThyng]

So given we've actually seen celestia and Thor, how does vamping work? Can't Thor forbid durkon soul from being dragged back to the vampire corpse?

[Ted C]

So given we've actually seen celestia and Thor, how does vamping work? Can't Thor forbid durkon soul from being dragged back to the vampire corpse?

Isn't Durkon's soul still tied to his body when it's undead? It is a curse, after all. He has to watch some evil force make his body do all manner of things that he finds abhorrent until somebody destroys it to set him free.

[Kuja]

How guaranteed is it that Durkon leaves the Order?

Being evil mostly means a loss of compassion, a willingness to actively destroy other peoples life.
But he'd still be lawful, and he has promised Roy to aid him. Lawful Evil characters still care about promises, tradition and loyalty - and those were the strongest aspects of Durkons personality (more lawful than good, as opposed to Roy who was more Good than Lawful, as stated in the afterlife). A Evil Durkon could be a very interesting member of the Order, so i really hope he stays.

Reading this brought two things to mind-

One, the comic already kind of foreshadowed this sort of thing when Roy had his conversation with the astral deva. That is, by keeping someone evil (they talked about Belkar, but it could easily go for vampDurkon too) close you can keep tabs on them and limit their excesses. Which is kind of like doing good. Roy might be able to play on vampDurkon's lawful side and maybe limit his blood hunger to stuff the Order was going to kill anyway, ogres and goblins etc. Plus depending on how much the alignment change and the vampirism alters his personality, vampDurkon might still want to be a follower of Thor which means he can still try to carry out his quests, just with a much more tyrannical bent now that he's LE instead of LG.

Which leads to the second thing that comes to mind-

Durkon is kind of the last member of the Order to recieve any serious character development. We've seen stuff like Elan's backstory and his advancement from goofy bard to goofy swashbuckler, Haley's development, Roy's whole deal with his death, his family, et al, V's changes after his apocalyptic rampages, even Belkar's bit with not wanting to be a 2D character. Durkon though is still the same basic LG dwarf cleric he's always been. VampDurkon could get some spotlight that liveDurkon didn't, like maybe stuff with Belkar egging on his evil side and wrestling with his old precepts and what he's become.

Also, I want to see the comic where vampDurkon tries to bite a tree.

Miko said to Hinjo she is strongest SG Paladin, while he is second. So, Ochul is third at best. Granted, he raked in a lot of XP doing battles for Xykon's amusement, but so did everyone else in meantime.

I always got the impression that O-chul was one of the Guard's top tier. He was the only one in the throne room that didn't succumb to the insanity ball trick, and he survived the explosion plus whatever falling damage he got when he crashed into Monster's tea party. And not only did he survive multiple dunks in the shark tank, he even took one of Redcloak's disintigrate spells to the face and lived. He's sort of like the Determinator compared to Miko's WaifFu.

[Ahriman238]

Really, the closest thing to a bright side in this is that Malack HAS to have used up most of his spells.

No, he hasn't. At roughly 15th level with Wisdom bonus and Domain spells, Malack should have most of his low level spells and 1/2 to 2/3rds of his 5th level + spells.

Whoops, you're right. Before running into Belkar the only things he cast were Wind Control, Flame Strike and raising the mummies, but that last came from his staff. Tarquin even says "you don't normally go for this sort of thing do you?" which at the time I took to mean the cration of undead in general, now I suspect it was making zombies in particular.

Durkon on the other hand has been burning through his spell slots since they first got there.

[Imperial Overlord]

He himself stated that it's almost impossible for him to find suitable challenges. Malack is centuries old and can easily be higher level than Tarquin who is near epic if not epic level.

Just want to point out, that would still be true if he was 11th level. He''d still count as 22nd level or higher for XP purposes.

Yep. And as pointed out, vampire+ lizard folk +cleric is a terribly suboptimal build. To be roughly equal to probably epic level Tarquin he would need to be higher than 11th level. The available evidence and the dramatic logic that fuels the comic strongly supports that he's around 15th level, but it does not definitively prove it. If Malack states he's almost out of high level spells then I'm clearly wrong. If he whips out a couple of 7th level spells, then I'm right. If he whips out 9th level spells, then we're both wrong.

[Straha]

Roughly what level are all the main characters? I remember some vague speculation in the early days but obviously we have more info now to make estimates.

[Sinewmire]

If I recall correctly, they were worked out to be somewhere around level 15-16.

After a few moments research, the Giant in the Playground forum "class and level geekery" thread, has Belkar using a level 16 ability (two weapon pounce?), and Haley, Durkon and Vaarsuvius using level 15 abilities, so they're probably all around there somewhere.

The thread is here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253978, if you're interested.

[Terralthra]

V was definitely level 13 at the time of the Battle of Azure City, because Mass-class buff spells affect one target per caster level. He's adventured quite a bit since then.

[Rogue 9]

878 is up, and the Order of the Stick is completely hosed.