The OotS Thread III

[Kuja]

*long moment of silence*

Goodbye, Durkon Thundershield. Hello, vampDurkon.

[Mr Bean]

*long moment of silence*

Goodbye, Durkon Thundershield. Hello, vampDurkon.

Goodbye Durkon Thundershield, hello Durkon Von Thundershield
Now the only question is are we about to see Belkar the Vampire Barbarian or is he going to get away?

[AniThyng]

So given we've actually seen celestia and Thor, how does vamping work? Can't Thor forbid durkon soul from being dragged back to the vampire corpse?

Isn't Durkon's soul still tied to his body when it's undead? It is a curse, after all. He has to watch some evil force make his body do all manner of things that he finds abhorrent until somebody destroys it to set him free.

Well wouldn't Hel and Thor be pretty much there on the spot to argue for his soul? The way I imagine it they get "yanked" back from whereever it was going, so it seems odd that the gods wouldn't do something about it. Either way, I do hope we get to see some of that, given we've already seen Hel and Thor not a few strips ago. I would feel it unsatisfying if we did not conclude this storyline with some look at how Durkon's relationship with his deities change - at the very least, I think him pledging to Hel makes for a better story then him pledging to Nergal.

[Kuja]

Hel might find it entertaining to have an undead dwarf cleric on the loose out of spite for Thor, since every time we've seen them we've seen them arguing over souls.

[Lord Relvenous]

*long moment of silence*

Goodbye, Durkon Thundershield. Hello, vampDurkon.

Goodbye Durkon Thundershield, hello Durkon Von Thundershield
Now the only question is are we about to see Belkar the Vampire Barbarian or is he going to get away?

2v1 Vampirification on the Order members would surprise me somewhat. I'm guessing he'll get saved or Malack will honor Durkon's request for him to leave his teammates alive.

BTW, it's Durkula Von Thundershield.

[lance]

I think he will honor Durkons final request not to kill his fellow party members

[Irbis]

I think he loses everything. He's a divine spellcaster, and that means that unlike Fighters, Sorcerers, Monks, etc, he doesn't have exclusive control over the power he draws upon. Malack might use an Atonement spell and his own influence to turn Durkon into a fully functioning evil cleric, but that's quite a few days off.

Would atonement be needed, though? It's for making good with your old deity, new one would probably embrace Durkon easily.

2v1 Vampirification on the Order members would surprise me somewhat. I'm guessing he'll get saved or Malack will honor Durkon's request for him to leave his teammates alive.

As I said, Malack is too weak to control two OotS members. The only way he has left to Vamp Belkar is to order Durkula to do it. So, I guess it depends on what Durkula will decide to do.

Wrong. He countered Durkon's Turn. He didn't show fear.

Had he been anywhere near Durkon's level, he'd have zero need to. Durkon has Charisma penalty, Malack has Vampire's turn resistance. QED.

As there are feats, magic items, and ability stat modifiers that can increase turning ability, this shows caution.

Durkon has none, and I'd expect Malack to learn what he can about him when they were designing the spell.

A conservative fighting style is what we can expect from Malack. Since dispel has a 50/50 chance at equal level, failing that is fairly likely for someone of equal level.

Except, in case you missed it, Durkon gloated how pathetic the attempt at Dispel was. Malack must be quite a few levels lower, not 50/50. Ergo, 11.

Wrong. He himself stated that it's almost impossible for him to find suitable challenges.

You know why? Because being ECL 22 and having only 11 levels of Cleric makes it indeed very hard to find something suitable to defeat as CR 22 monsters are supposed to be challenge for actual Epic spellcaster. Yet another proof Malack isn't that great.

Malack is centuries old and can easily be higher level than Tarquin who is near epic if not epic level.

His age - so what? V is twice as old as Xykon - is s/he/it twice as powerful? No. Add difficulty to find XP due to ECL mismatch and Malack would gain levels even slower than V.

Tarquin being Epic? I don't see it. Had he been, he would went through whole OotS alone in a few rounds instead of giving them a chance to fight back. Furthermore, it doesn't make any sense at all from storytelling perspective - Xykon is aiming for world domination yet Tarquin with his Epic spellcaster human lady (and possibly another in masked guy) wastes his time on petty games with a few little chiefdoms? He wants to be remembered as a guy defeated by inept Bard, and not as, you know, only one of the few strongest beings that ever existed? Why Tarquin isn't ruler of all he surveys yet? Why is he aging instead of grabbing one of Epic methods to lengthen his lifespan?

Nope, even level 20 is above what we saw from Tarquin & co. so far.

Also Xykon is an epic level lich and easily capable of besting a 15th level cleric with lizard men and vampire level adjustments, probably while making a crack at crappy optimization choices.

Epic party with three spellcasters can easily handle one guy up to 6 levels higher. Especially if he is inattentive Sorcerer and the party has evil people willing to plan and do anything to win. If they are level 22, they can defeat up to level 28 - read, all Elan needed to do to finish his quest was to ask daddy for help.

[Imperial Overlord]

Had he been anywhere near Durkon's level, he'd have zero need to. Durkon has Charisma penalty, Malack has Vampire's turn resistance. QED.

Wrong. See below.

As there are feats, magic items, and ability stat modifiers that can increase turning ability, this shows caution.

Durkon has none, and I'd expect Malack to learn what he can about him when they were designing the spell.

And assume he's holding nothing back when, in fact, Durkhan was holding vital pieces of information back, like what he's up to.

Except, in case you missed it, Durkon gloated how pathetic the attempt at Dispel was. Malack must be quite a few levels lower, not 50/50. Ergo, 11.

Wrong. Durkhan gloated that it failed and that Malack should have adventured more.. The only thing that implies is that Malack isn't much higher level than Durkhan. Again, it's a spell with a high chance of failure even if you have several more levels than your target.

Why? Because being ECL 22 and having only 11 levels of Cleric makes it indeed very hard to find something suitable to defeat as CR 22 monsters are supposed to be challenge for actual Epic spellcaster. Yet another proof Malack isn't that great.

It's also a shitty build if you have 15 levels of Cleric. The problem doesn't change.

Tarquin being Epic? I don't see it. Had he been, he would went through whole OotS alone in a few rounds instead of giving them a chance to fight back. Furthermore, it doesn't make any sense at all from storytelling perspective - Xykon is aiming for world domination yet Tarquin with his Epic spellcaster human lady (and possibly another in masked guy) wastes his time on petty games with a few little chiefdoms? He wants to be remembered as a guy defeated by inept Bard, and not as, you know, only one of the few strongest beings that ever existed? Why Tarquin isn't ruler of all he surveys yet? Why is he aging instead of grabbing one of Epic methods to lengthen his lifespan?

Tarquin handles Roy easily, even when Roy has back up from other PCs. He's not playing games over a few chiefdoms, he's ruling kingdoms, throwing them down, and attempting to rule an entire continent. His life extension plans remain unknown, but he's got time. He hasn't shown his whole hand. So I would say epic.

Also Xykon is an epic level lich and easily capable of besting a 15th level cleric with lizard men and vampire level adjustments, probably while making a crack at crappy optimization choices.

Epic party with three spellcasters can easily handle one guy up to 6 levels higher. Especially if he is inattentive Sorcerer and the party has evil people willing to plan and do anything to win. If they are level 22, they can defeat up to level 28 - read, all Elan needed to do to finish his quest was to ask daddy for help.

That's optimistic. Xykon isn't attentive to shit he doesn't care about, but he's willing to go to great lengths and lay detailed plans for what he does care about. Xykon's moderately hard to escape forcecage ring a bell? Bouncing rubber symbol of insanity? He doesn't give a shit about the name of his victims or who he steps over, but he does plan ahead. He's also not alone. An army, a high level cleric lackey, and the monster in the darkness.

I think it'll make a good fight.

[Imperial Overlord]

As a side note, there is the issue of hitpoints. Malack is using d12s, but he isn't getting a Constitution bonus. At 11th level, he's simply not going to be able to survive a Heal spell from Durkhan without having to retreat to his coffin unless there's a trick or house rule that I don't know about in play.

[LadyTevar]

This is the problem with Prophecies. 90% of them are self-fulfilling when you try to avoid it, and now there's TWO that say Durkan will return home. Had that Head Cleric simply never allowed Durkan to leave, he'd never be returning posthumously as a Vampire, unleashing great tragedy upon his home.

[lance]

As a side note, there is the issue of hitpoints. Malack is using d12s, but he isn't getting a Constitution bonus. At 11th level, he's simply not going to be able to survive a Heal spell from Durkhan without having to retreat to his coffin unless there's a trick or house rule that I don't know about in play.

The spell doesn't knock you below 1, and he has 13 hd conservitively. 11 from cleric, and 2 from lizardfolk.

There are tricks to up his hit points, if he drained a few people of blood before setting out, that would of gave him a few extra, if he was turned in a desecrated temple would give 2hp/level and theres a couple other things, but are more obscure and I don't recall as well

[LadyTevar]

QUESTION:
Is Malack a Lizardman, or a SNAKEMAN? We still have yet to see lower limbs, yet he grapples with a very large tail.

[Kuja]

Could he be a Yuan-ti perhaps?

[Lord Relvenous]

QUESTION:
Is Malack a Lizardman, or a SNAKEMAN? We still have yet to see lower limbs, yet he grapples with a very large tail.

Judging by how long that tail is and where his legs would have to be for him to walk like he does, I'm gonna say he doesn't have lower limbs.

[Grumman]

QUESTION:
Is Malack a Lizardman, or a SNAKEMAN? We still have yet to see lower limbs, yet he grapples with a very large tail.

He looks to be a snakeman of some description - there are frames where you definitely should see his legs, if he had them.

[Lord of the Abyss]

879 is up!
Spoiler

So, no immediate free will for Durkon...at least Belkar survived for now.

"Use your indoor voice", heh.

Also, Burlew said on the OOTS forum that this is the last of the 9-in-a-row, so no more for a week or so apparently.

[Ahriman238]

It probably makes more sense not to give Durkon free will and throw down with his friends. At least Belkar will probably be alright, but I think he has zero chance of warning Roy and the others before they run into Von Thundershield on their own.

[Irbis]

This is the problem with Prophecies. 90% of them are self-fulfilling when you try to avoid it, and now there's TWO that say Durkan will return home. Had that Head Cleric simply never allowed Durkan to leave, he'd never be returning posthumously as a Vampire, unleashing great tragedy upon his home.

It's worse - Head Cleric kicked him out after drinking some beer for advice, and failed to leave any sort of note about it for his successor

QUESTION:
Is Malack a Lizardman, or a SNAKEMAN? We still have yet to see lower limbs, yet he grapples with a very large tail.

Well, there are two kinds of Lizardfolk in the comic, and Malack sort of looks like one. Plus, IIRC Haley said he was one, here.

Could he be a Yuan-ti perhaps?

There is one big problem with that, then his ECL would be 35+. In other words, his 'level' would easily rival that of minor deities.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Could he be a Yuan-ti perhaps?

There is one big problem with that, then his ECL would be 35+. In other words, his 'level' would easily rival that of minor deities.

Except that he's not a PC . Given this fact, there's no reason to assume his ECL is the determining factor in his overall "strength". (And there's no reason why he should be roughly close to Tarquin. ).

Burlew (?) hasn't minded having epic characters running around, just look at Xykon or (almost certainly) Tarquin. Durkon not gettingly instantly crushed by Malak doesn't say much about Malak's power, just that Malak was fighting conservatively, quite reluctantly, and still beat Durkon easily.
Side note - isn't there a side rule about vampire being unable to control vamp-babies of a higher level than themselves? With vamp babies having the ability to make will saves, or opposed will rolls against the creator vampire? (I haven't played in years, I don't remember how the vampire template works with new vamps)

[Napoleon the Clown]

I actually looked at the SRD entry for vampires last night. There's no mention of will saves, just that a vampire can have a slaves with total hit dice up to twice that of the master vampire.

[Crazedwraith]

880 Is Up

[RecklessPrudence]

Oh, man... it just hit me. I remembered On the Origin of PCs, how the Order of the Stick was founded. Roy and Durkon... they've been together a long time. They had defining character moments together, before the rest of the Order even met them.

He's going to take this the hardest.

[Irbis]

I thought Roy is going to go all Miko on Belkar for a second

[Ahriman238]

Does getting vamped replenish spell slots? Otherwise Von Thundershield is going to be terribly short of magic for the day. A fledgling vampire without spells, the Order can probably take before he becomes a serious threat.* Minus much angsting from Roy and the others about fighting their friend. For that matter, lacking cleric support (i.e. healing and buffs) is really going to hurt the Order in any conflict from here on out.

*If not for a certain prophecy that virtually guarantees the vamp's survival until he comes home.

[Rogue 9]

Actually, his cleric powers are fucked anyway because Thor will have taken them away immediately. Until he converts to another deity, he's got all the stats of the aristocrat NPC class without the skill points.