WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

[Gandalf]

No, but it could be a mitigating circumstance.

After all, while we don't excuse accidentally killing someone we don't punish unintentional manslaughter to the same level as intentional, premeditated killing of a human being. Wanda caused harm and there should be consequences.

She is somewhat like a Typhoid Mary - capable of doing great harm, but potentially controllable. All Typhoid Mary had to do was to refrain from actions that could endanger others, otherwise she could have lived in society. But she refused to stop endangering others and eventually had to locked up for life to protect others. That's Agatha Harkness - all she had to do was not use her magic to hurt others, but she refused and kept hurting people. Wanda, however, is like Typhoid Mary when it was first discovered she was an asymptomatic carrier of the disease - at that point she had, in fact, killed people (I don't think Wanda killed anyone in Westview, although she sure traumatized the fuck out of them so who knows if that's better or worse) but it had been without intent. Wanda is at the point where she has to decide whether to behave in a manner that allows her to be in society, or if she's going to be an outlaw.

Considering that Wanda was already Kilgraving an entire town when Agatha turned up, I'm not seeing the mitigation you state. As Wanda started firing out the excuses to the town she mind raped when Agatha cut the proverbial strings and they seemed upset, it shows that she clearly knew what she was doing. "When I violated you I thought you'd enjoy it more" as an excuse wasn't cutting it with the townsfolk.

After Westview yes, there are grounds for saying Wanda needs to be restrained. Up until that point, however, I don't think she'd done anything that could be considered criminal within the context of the MCU. Pre-accords there were no rules regarding what she could do with her "enhancements", especially within the borders of Sokovia itself where arguably she was defending her home against invaders (it gets fuzzy, what with Hydra not being part of a government). We don't know her status after Endgame - she'd been "dead" for five years, brought back, and so far as I can see she hadn't done anything wrong in that time period just after the un-Snap. Until Westview. That was when she really, unambiguously crossed the line.

I think, though, that at the tail-end of the Trauma Conga Line she'd just suffered - including having to kill her loved one, seeing him brought back, then watching him get killed again, then, attempting to fulfill his wish to be buried, seeing him being subjected to his worst post-death fear - and note that she did NOT at that point lash out but left SWORD peacefully - she had a breakdown. Granted, that doesn't excuse what she did, either, but I think there is an argument that she wasn't functioning as an entirely sane person at that point. She had never, up to that point, displayed that level of power before. I don't think she was aware what the consequences of her action would be up to that point.

So yes, she should suffer some consequences for what she did. I don't think she deserves to be locked away forever at this point, though (Agatha does - she has a multi-century history of deliberate mind-rape, coercion, and murder). What Wanda needs is some serious grief therapy, probably something for PTSD, and someone like Dr. Strange to evaluate and help her control her power - guarding the planet against that sort of metaphysical threat is his business after all. If it is possible for her to compensate the citizens of Westview for what was done maybe that could be arranged, but for them the best to be offered might be want she did at the end of this series - just get the hell out of their lives. Not everything can be fixed. After all that is when "lock her up" vs. "let her into society again" can be decided.

Explaining why Wanda did what she did is not the same as excusing what she did.

Before Infinity War, she was a fugitive. So I guess someone sorted out a pardon following everything that went on.

She reminds me a lot of the villain from Doctor Strange. Fuelled by trauma, and seeking a magic fuelled solution. Of course, they were happy to make him an unambiguous villain.

I can also see that too. And no one is going to complain if the money saved from taxes goes back into things like global defense, funding the Avengers, and charitable work.

Tony was smart enough to set things up just like that, and also as a way of politely saying "I'm better at running things then the government is."

Makes sense. It goes to explain why he went from "I have successfully privatised world peace" to the events of Civil War. If he didn't go along, there go the sweet tax breaks and contracts.

[Solauren]

I don't think Wanda could be convicted in a court of law.

For all intents and purposes, she had a massive nervous breakdown, and retreated into her own manufactured reality.
A normal person would have just been standing (or collapsed) on her own property, staring off into space.

Unfortunately, her breakdown causes her powers to go nuts, and physically manifest said reality.

Quite frankly, you could argue that she had no idea what was going on when everything went 'black and white'

Then Agatha came along....

[Broomstick]

Considering that Wanda was already Kilgraving an entire town when Agatha turned up, I'm not seeing the mitigation you state. As Wanda started firing out the excuses to the town she mind raped when Agatha cut the proverbial strings and they seemed upset, it shows that she clearly knew what she was doing. "When I violated you I thought you'd enjoy it more" as an excuse wasn't cutting it with the townsfolk.

When Wanda first started up the B&W Westview, that first day as it were, I don't think she knew what she was doing or how, or whether or not it was real or fantasy. That does not make it OK, of course.

As the episodes went on, and especially after Westview!Vision started to figure out something was wrong, yes, THEN if Wanda was a perfect and moral person she would have said whoa, hold on, this ain't right how do I fix this? Wanda is not, however, that sort of person and never has been. Having her grief relieved even if imperfectly felt really good and that's hard to give up even for the best of us. She went into denial.

However, at the end, when Agatha de-programmed the townspeople and it was made very clear what a horrible mind-rape Wanda was doing she did, indeed, do the right thing. She let the people go (although the re-programming Agatha thing was not a morally right thing to do, even if it was expedient for controlling a villain).

Here's an analogy: Wanda lost control of her car and crashed it. That doesn't make her evil, but it does mean she has done something bad. Unbeknownst to her (at first) she has also hit/run over several people. She doesn't realize this immediately, but eventually she figures out the noises she hears are people in pain. When this is certain she has several choices:

1) She can attempt drive the car away, probably causing even more severe injuries
2) Up and run away
3) Call for help and try to apply first aid

1 is the most reprehensible thing she could have done - comparable in this case to keeping the Hex up and running and continuing to, as you put it, "Kilgrave" the entire town for her little fantasy. 3 won't keep her out of jail, but is the most laudable thing under the circumstances. 2 is what she actually did. Yay, she stopped hurting people but she also ran away (I'm not sure there was anything she could have done to help them or compensate for the harm she had caused at that point). Wanda is neither a saint nor a devil but somewhere in between which actually makes her pretty human, even if not very likable.

Here's the thing, though - what if you don't know you are Kilgrave?. Sure, after you know you have reality-warping mind-raping powers there's a definite culpability there, but if you don't know you can do that and you do it accidentally yes it's a bad thing but not, to my mind, the same level of bad as knowing you can do such a thing and choosing to do it. Prior to this incident who thought Wanda had that much power? Sure, she had affected people... one at a time... briefly... with nightmares that didn't last. That's a lot different than re-writing reality for an entire town. It's the difference between driving a car you have every reason to think is sound but it breaks down and causes a crash, vs. driving a car you know is about to have a major malfunction that will lead to a crash. There are different levels of culpability and penalty for those two scenarios even if they both wind up with a car smashed into a tree and a bunch of injured pedestrians.

Before Infinity War, she was a fugitive. So I guess someone sorted out a pardon following everything that went on.

I don't recall her being pardoned.

From what I remember she started in Sokovia where, as a citizen, she was arguably defending her nation from (take your pick and depending on the exact time) Tony Stark, the Avengers, and Ultron. I don't see where she broke any laws in Age of Ultron.

In Civil War she sided with Captain America. She spent some time on The Raft before being released with the others in the jailbreak - after that, yes, she was a fugitive. No pardon. At the beginning of Infinity War she and Vision were meeting up secretly, but no mention of pardon there, either. After the ambush by The Order she wound up in Wakanda which had already given asylum to some of the other enhanced fugitives. Then she died in the Snap. Presumably, she was declared/considered dead along with everyone else Snapped. Then everyone comes back. Westview is at most a couple weeks post-UnSnap. Everything is in chaos so a fugitive who can fly can probably get from Wakanda to New Jersey and the SWORD facility without being tracked.

I don't think Wanda was ever pardoned. She was a fugitive before and is definitely still a fugitive. If she is getting away with wandering around after Endgame it's because the world is in chaos and the average cop isn't going to be able to stop her or hold her unless she cooperates.

She reminds me a lot of the villain from Doctor Strange. Fuelled by trauma, and seeking a magic fuelled solution. Of course, they were happy to make him an unambiguous villain.

And both of them cross the moral lines due to grief.

Wanda is not inherently evil. She is fucking powerful, though. She's so powerful she can do terrible things without intending to do so. She's also completely untutored in how to deal with that level of power. Westview was a terrible thing - the important question is whether she's going to do everything possible to avoid that sort of thing ever happening again, or if she's just going to say "fuck it - the world has been feeding me shit sandwiches from day one, I don't give a damn anymore".

I'll also point out that while there are a lot of times and places Wanda could have killed people she didn't. She has killed accidentally before, in Lagos, Nigeria, while working with the Avengers. Compare her to other Avengers that have chosen to kill, unambiguously, either directly (Thor fighting for his father, Captain America while in the military, Hawkeye after the Snap, and so on) or indirectly (Stark knew damn well that not all of the weapons he was selling went to "peacekeeping" purposes) who get a lot less hand wringing either here or in fandom or in the MCU. Wanda generally incapacitates rather than kills, and usually her mental assaults are brief, affect one or few individuals, and don't last more than minutes... until Westview. She's not evil. I think she wants to do good. She wants to be accepted, she wants to be part of something good, but between fate and her own mistakes the shit keeps hitting the fan, leading to doing more and more unpleasant things.

I don't see any other path than getting Dr. Strange involved. Mundane cops - hell, a mundane army - can't stop her if she really goes off the rails. The question is... .will she choose the path of Good or the path of Evil? I'm thinking this sets up Multiverse of Madness. The question is whether Wanda being Strange's apprentice is an A plot or a B plot.

[LadyTevar]

Why would Rambeau be angry with Danvers? Did I miss something?

Go back to the episodes after she's been kicked out of Westview. Notice her reaction to ANY mention of Carol Danvers, which Woo and Darcy both pick up on. Rambeau never says anything, but her shoulders hunch, her face gets tight, and she very obviously DOES NOT WANT to talk, think, or see Danvers.
Maybe because Carol never came to see her mother when she had cancer? Maybe because Rambeau had a vain hope that Carol could HEAL the cancer, or bring some Space Tech that would save her mom? Maybe because Danvers never came back to Earth (that Rambeau knew, as she was Snapped).

Those would be common reasons to be angry or resent a person. Hell, even IRL, people resent someone who wasn't there when a loved one needed them.

[Gandalf]

When Wanda first started up the B&W Westview, that first day as it were, I don't think she knew what she was doing or how, or whether or not it was real or fantasy. That does not make it OK, of course.

Yeah, I think this is where we're splitting on opinion here. I don't buy that it was an accident like that.

From what I remember she started in Sokovia where, as a citizen, she was arguably defending her nation from (take your pick and depending on the exact time) Tony Stark, the Avengers, and Ultron. I don't see where she broke any laws in Age of Ultron.

In Civil War she sided with Captain America. She spent some time on The Raft before being released with the others in the jailbreak - after that, yes, she was a fugitive. No pardon. At the beginning of Infinity War she and Vision were meeting up secretly, but no mention of pardon there, either. After the ambush by The Order she wound up in Wakanda which had already given asylum to some of the other enhanced fugitives. Then she died in the Snap. Presumably, she was declared/considered dead along with everyone else Snapped. Then everyone comes back. Westview is at most a couple weeks post-UnSnap. Everything is in chaos so a fugitive who can fly can probably get from Wakanda to New Jersey and the SWORD facility without being tracked.

I don't think Wanda was ever pardoned. She was a fugitive before and is definitely still a fugitive. If she is getting away with wandering around after Endgame it's because the world is in chaos and the average cop isn't going to be able to stop her or hold her unless she cooperates.

For "definitely still a fugitive," she managed to walk in to space SHIELD with few problems.

And both of them cross the moral lines due to grief.

Wanda is not inherently evil. She is fucking powerful, though. She's so powerful she can do terrible things without intending to do so. She's also completely untutored in how to deal with that level of power. Westview was a terrible thing - the important question is whether she's going to do everything possible to avoid that sort of thing ever happening again, or if she's just going to say "fuck it - the world has been feeding me shit sandwiches from day one, I don't give a damn anymore".

I'll also point out that while there are a lot of times and places Wanda could have killed people she didn't. She has killed accidentally before, in Lagos, Nigeria, while working with the Avengers. Compare her to other Avengers that have chosen to kill, unambiguously, either directly (Thor fighting for his father, Captain America while in the military, Hawkeye after the Snap, and so on) or indirectly (Stark knew damn well that not all of the weapons he was selling went to "peacekeeping" purposes) who get a lot less hand wringing either here or in fandom or in the MCU. Wanda generally incapacitates rather than kills, and usually her mental assaults are brief, affect one or few individuals, and don't last more than minutes... until Westview. She's not evil. I think she wants to do good. She wants to be accepted, she wants to be part of something good, but between fate and her own mistakes the shit keeps hitting the fan, leading to doing more and more unpleasant things.

What difference does it make if she could have killed more people, or others are worse? The same could be said of Ted Bundy.

[Broomstick]

Ted Bundy deliberately kidnapped, tortured, killed, then fucked the dead bodies of multiple women.

Wanda Maximoff has powers she doesn't understand and can't control well, yet has refrained from deliberate, premeditated murder.

You really can't see a difference?

I'm not saying Wanda is good. Unquestionably, she has done terrible things. But she does seem like someone who could be redeemed, trained, and perhaps would be willing to make what amends she could. As opposed to a serial torturer-killer necrophiliac.

[GuppyShark]

Approximately five minutes into the episode, Wanda is presented with a choice.

Save the people or save her imaginary family. That's the scene where Wanda!Vision and the kids are disassembling.

She chooses her imaginary family.

She made the right decision eventually, but she's clearly not Mjolnir-worthy.

[Gandalf]

Ted Bundy deliberately kidnapped, tortured, killed, then fucked the dead bodies of multiple women.

Wanda Maximoff has powers she doesn't understand and can't control well, yet has refrained from deliberate, premeditated murder.

You really can't see a difference?

I'm not saying Wanda is good. Unquestionably, she has done terrible things. But she does seem like someone who could be redeemed, trained, and perhaps would be willing to make what amends she could. As opposed to a serial torturer-killer necrophiliac.

If that's what you got from my post, then you've clearly missed the point completely. Would smaller words help?

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Oh... my Brother, Sis-in-Law, and I have had a disagreement over Rambeau's end credit.

I said that her "mother's old friend" is Fury.
Brother says the "Old Friend" is Capt. Marvel.
Sis-in-law says it's the Head Skrull, who was at their house in the Marvel movie. (And that's how I found out that she'd not seen Spiderman: Far from Home's and its end credits.)

So, folks, let's brainstorm. Is the 'old friend" going to be Fury, Marvel, or Skrull?
Fury and the Skrull, of course, are all up on the spaceship parked in Lagrange orbit. Marvel has been checking in all through the Blip, but considering Rambeau's anger at her, would Rambeau want to see Marvel?

The Skrull did say "He'd like to meet you." So probably it wouldn't be Marvel.

Based on some fans' interpretation the scene is pointing to Spoiler

Secret Invasion

, which seems to have been mentioned last year based on the storyline's wiki entry.

[Darth Yan]

Uh technically I'd say this whole mess is HAYWARD'S fault. Wanda asked to be allowed to bury Vision and he was all "fuck no I'm gonna make him a weapon" (in contravening of Vision's own will mind you.) He also lied and made it look like Wanda broke in when actually she left peacefully. Whatever Wanda did things only got that bad because Hayward was a callous asshole.

There are degrees of evil and Wanda's more akin to crashing a car and making a bad decision due to panic and grief. Again going back to the Tony Stark analogy. Tony does a lot of good and when he does fuck up its from a misguided desire to help others; the fact that he ultimately ADMITS his errors is a plus. Thanos by contrast just wants validation and to feed his own ego even if he deludes himself into thinking he has good intentions

[Broomstick]

If that's what you got from my post, then you've clearly missed the point completely. Would smaller words help?

Maybe fewer sentences from both of us?

[Broomstick]

Uh technically I'd say this whole mess is HAYWARD'S fault. Wanda asked to be allowed to bury Vision and he was all "fuck no I'm gonna make him a weapon" (in contravening of Vision's own will mind you.) He also lied and made it look like Wanda broke in when actually she left peacefully. Whatever Wanda did things only got that bad because Hayward was a callous asshole.

Harkness didn't help, either.

I don't think Harkness was in league with Haywood, I think she noticed the Hex and showed up to see what was going on/suck the magic out of someone else. Harkness clearly contributed to the mess, that's clear. Haywood instigated it.

None of which lets Wanda entirely off the hook.

The other thing to consider is that the townspeople might know more of the truth than people like Haywood suspect. As one of them said, when they were allowed to sleep they had Wanda's nightmares. They clearly had some notion of Wanda's thoughts and emotions while under her spell. How much will they be able to tell the FBI? How much truth will be uncovered? Will the authorities find out that it was Haywood that stole Vision's body and Wanda left SWORD peacefully?

[Solauren]

Another question on fault. WHERE did that envelop in Wanda's car come from? She seemed surprised to see it.

One has to wonder if Hayward had someone put it in her car while she was talking to him/trying to recover Vision, hoping it would cause her to go there, and do something that could get her into trouble.

After all, she was now a witness to what Hayward was doing. (Possibly illegal).
He's the one that put the idea of bringing Vision back to life into her head. (Which she then did, in a way)

I mean, isn't it a really odd coincidence that a few days after Wanda recreates Vision, Haywards people are able to rebuild Vision?

More and more, I'm wondering if he didn't manage to get sensor scans of the recreated Vision, which let his people rapidly finish creating 'Vision 2.0'

If that's the case, and it can be proven (say by the files Darcy hacked), depending on the length Hayward went to to set things up, Wanda may be a victim too.

Thinking about it, I can see him easily setting this up.

I'm picturing this:
Battle at the Avengers compound occurs. Iron Man dies.
Wanda is shown to be back. (Meaning she wasn't physically killed, she was blipped)
Hayward realizes Wanda might have the power to restore Vision. Either via repairing the Vision's body, or otherwise.
He has people go to Westview to prep the property in case Wanda proves unco-operative.
He leaks to Avengers contacts that SWORD has the Visions body. (How ELSE would Wanda know?)

Wanda shows up at Sword. While the front desk stonewalls her, he has an agent move into position to put that paperwork into her car.
Once that's done, he lets Wanda in, and he puts the idea of her resurrecting him into her head.
She says she can't, so he doesn't let her have the body.
As she's leaving, he has an agent in the parking lot slip the paper in.

Wanda finds the paper, goes to the address.
She gets there. Something already there goes off, releasing chemicals to screw with Wanda's mind (drugging her).
Wanda, already in a very poor state, has a mental break. Start of Wandavision.

While the initial hex is forming (which wasn't visible yet), some sort of technology also in the area manages to get a sensor scan of 'hallucination Visions' repaired neural network around the approximation of the Mindstone. SWORD uses that to refine their own design, and finish Vision 2.0 (which takes a few days).

Hayward then deliberately escalates the situation with the Hex, including trying to kill Wanda, to cover his own tracks.
After all, he now has a villian to blame things on, and a Vision 2.0 that could be mass-produced as a planetary defensive measure.
So long as the public believes the story, in a post-blip world, no one is going to look into it to deeply (he thinks).

[EnterpriseSovereign]

His plan didn't account for the the presence of Agatha, which would have totally derailed things.

[LadyTevar]

Another question on fault. WHERE did that envelop in Wanda's car come from? She seemed surprised to see it.

(SNIP CONSPIRACY THEORY)

I don't know why you say she was Surprised to see it. I did not read that as surprise, but sadness.

And Holy Fuck dude, way to mangle Occam's Razor with that Conspiracy theory. That made NO SENSE whatsoever, and goes far beyond anything seen in the TV show. Nothing in the show supports your theory in any way.

[LadyTevar]

His plan didn't account for the the presence of Agatha, which would have totally derailed things.

Agatha was a wild card. However, she was there simply to find out who/how/why about the Hex, and then to steal the knowledge and the magic like she did with her first coven.

[Solauren]

Another question on fault. WHERE did that envelop in Wanda's car come from? She seemed surprised to see it.

(SNIP CONSPIRACY THEORY)

I don't know why you say she was Surprised to see it. I did not read that as surprise, but sadness.

And Holy Fuck dude, way to mangle Occam's Razor with that Conspiracy theory. That made NO SENSE whatsoever, and goes far beyond anything seen in the TV show. Nothing in the show supports your theory in any way.

Then why the hell would have have sensors to track Vibranium at his base outside the Hex, when he knew that Wanda didn't have Visions actual body?

Hayward assumes Wanda could resurrect Vision.
When she doesn't do what he wants her to when he plays nice (Plan A), he finds away to get her to do it. (Plan B)

Even if he didn't have the documents for the house planted in her car, setting up a 'trap' is childs play for someone with his assets.
All he'd have to know about his the house. Which, if he had managed to download Visions memories, he would. If he was working with Stark Enterprises during that 5 year period (say even helping put EDITH into orbit), he could have.

I mean, come on, this is 'B level' supervillan stuff here.

[Gandalf]

If that's what you got from my post, then you've clearly missed the point completely. Would smaller words help?

Maybe fewer sentences from both of us?

My posts are short enough. Both people are serial torturers among other things. Bundy was more horrific, while Maximoff had scale. However, both could have been worse than they were. So your pointing out that she could have been worse was pretty damn funny. Not as funny as Yan's content, but still something.

Uh technically I'd say this whole mess is HAYWARD'S fault. Wanda asked to be allowed to bury Vision and he was all "fuck no I'm gonna make him a weapon" (in contravening of Vision's own will mind you.) He also lied and made it look like Wanda broke in when actually she left peacefully. Whatever Wanda did things only got that bad because Hayward was a callous asshole.

The British Museum holds the remains of Indigenous people from across the world. They refuse to return them for proper burial. How many random civilians can the average Indigenous torture without blame?

[Darth Yan]

If that's what you got from my post, then you've clearly missed the point completely. Would smaller words help?

Maybe fewer sentences from both of us?

My posts are short enough. Both people are serial torturers among other things. Bundy was more horrific, while Maximoff had scale. However, both could have been worse than they were. So your pointing out that she could have been worse was pretty damn funny. Not as funny as Yan's content, but still something.

Uh technically I'd say this whole mess is HAYWARD'S fault. Wanda asked to be allowed to bury Vision and he was all "fuck no I'm gonna make him a weapon" (in contravening of Vision's own will mind you.) He also lied and made it look like Wanda broke in when actually she left peacefully. Whatever Wanda did things only got that bad because Hayward was a callous asshole.

The British Museum holds the remains of Indigenous people from across the world. They refuse to return them for proper burial. How many random civilians can the average Indigenous torture without blame?

There are degrees of culpability. Wanda did bad things without a doubt. The mental breakdown, grief, and the fact she did the right thing in the end are mitigating factors. She's certainly less evil than Hayward and Harkness.

[Lord Revan]

Yeah there's a reason why there's generally at least 2 levels to "unjustifiably killed a person" as crime mainly manslaughter or murder now the terminology might change, but the basic idea remains. The difference between Wanda and Kaecilius (in addition that one of the names is far easier to spell correctly) is that while Wanda did most of her actions without really knowing the extent of the damage she was causing, Kaecilius did and didn't give a damn.

Same applies to Hayward and Harkness from everything I've gathered they had a goal in mind and didn't care who got hurt or killed in the process, was the hex a bad thing yes very much so but the mitigating factor here is that Wanda did most of it essentially on instinct not rational consideration of how do the maximum amount of damage or to accomplish a goal with the most efficiency.

[Gandalf]

The British Museum holds the remains of Indigenous people from across the world. They refuse to return them for proper burial. How many random civilians can the average Indigenous torture without blame?

There are degrees of culpability. Wanda did bad things without a doubt. The mental breakdown, grief, and the fact she did the right thing in the end are mitigating factors. She's certainly less evil than Hayward and Harkness.

Please address my question. If Hayward is at fault for Maximoff's torturing of a whole (unrelated) town, then the same rationale means people can take similar slights out on thousands of people, right?

[Darth Yan]

No.

As Revan pointed out there are degrees. Wanda acting on instinct and pain is not the same as consciously torturing people. Notably Wanda DOES ultimately do the right thing in the end.

[Broomstick]

If Hayward is at fault for Maximoff's torturing of a whole (unrelated) town, then the same rationale means people can take similar slights out on thousands of people, right?

Hayward is responsible for his actions. If his actions contribute to spurring others to do wrong actions that he, too, has culpability in those actions.

If the actions of a particular person spur you to do something bad then you are responsible for how you respond to that crisis. There's a difference between, say, harming or killing someone in self defense but stopping when the threat is over vs. continue to hurt/kill someone long past the point they're a threat. The first is considered self-defense and is generally not considered a crime. The second is murder and tried as such.

As already pointed out, Wanda Maximoff did some horrific things, but none of it was pre-meditated and she stopped of her own accord once it was made inescapably clear to her that continuing Westfield was going to be torture for the people living there. That is very different than someone planning to commit torture/murder, stalking a victim, kidnapping said victim, torturing the victim, killing the victim, then continuing to do bad things to the corpse while planning to do it all over again.

That's why Wanda Maximoff is a better person than Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. Doesn't mean Wanda is a good person, just not as bad as some other people.

Now, it would have been better if Wanda dismantled the hex as soon as she realized it wasn't all fantasy and she was controlling other people. I think we can all agree on that. But Wanda is far from perfect.

Agatha not only contributed to Wanda doing terrible things to other people by manipulating her, lying to her, and withholding information, we know she has killed AND she mind-raped and controlled at the very least Ralph Bohner, but in her case she did it knowingly and deliberately, with no regard to the pain she would be causing that person. Wanda has the mitigating factor of ignorance. Agatha does not. Therefore, Agatha is a worse human being.

Hayward did break the law, break the Sokovia Accords, cause a lot of pain to a grieving woman, then continued to poke and prod and provoke. How culpable is he for Westfield? Well, I don't think he had any clue Wanda was going to respond as she did. But when the hex happened he did nothing to help those inside, instead, he tried to profit and further his own plans while completely disregarding the welfare of those inside. Seems to be at the very least reckless endangerment on that one.

[Darth Yan]

Exactly.

It's like Tony Stark. He's not a great person but he DOES have good qualities that puts him leagues above Thanos, Killian, Loki and others.

[Gandalf]

If the actions of a particular person spur you to do something bad then you are responsible for how you respond to that crisis. There's a difference between, say, harming or killing someone in self defense but stopping when the threat is over vs. continue to hurt/kill someone long past the point they're a threat. The first is considered self-defense and is generally not considered a crime. The second is murder and tried as such.

So where do you put those people who snap and go on a spree killing? Or on this case, a spree mind rape?

As already pointed out, Wanda Maximoff did some horrific things, but none of it was pre-meditated and she stopped of her own accord once it was made inescapably clear to her that continuing Westfield was going to be torture for the people living there. That is very different than someone planning to commit torture/murder, stalking a victim, kidnapping said victim, torturing the victim, killing the victim, then continuing to do bad things to the corpse while planning to do it all over again.

Uh, no she didn't. She started to turn it off, saw the family dissolve and turned it back on.

That's why Wanda Maximoff is a better person than Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. Doesn't mean Wanda is a good person, just not as bad as some other people.

Now, it would have been better if Wanda dismantled the hex as soon as she realized it wasn't all fantasy and she was controlling other people. I think we can all agree on that. But Wanda is far from perfect.

Agatha not only contributed to Wanda doing terrible things to other people by manipulating her, lying to her, and withholding information, we know she has killed AND she mind-raped and controlled at the very least Ralph Bohner, but in her case she did it knowingly and deliberately, with no regard to the pain she would be causing that person. Wanda has the mitigating factor of ignorance. Agatha does not. Therefore, Agatha is a worse human being.

Hayward did break the law, break the Sokovia Accords, cause a lot of pain to a grieving woman, then continued to poke and prod and provoke. How culpable is he for Westfield? Well, I don't think he had any clue Wanda was going to respond as she did. But when the hex happened he did nothing to help those inside, instead, he tried to profit and further his own plans while completely disregarding the welfare of those inside. Seems to be at the very least reckless endangerment on that one.

Fun fact: "Not as bad as some other people" can still be a total monster. Even if Hayward was eighty Hitlers, and Harkness was four hundred Dahmers, Wanda still ran a mind rape colony, and the most charitable interpretation is that she didn't know of the torturous aspect of her mind rape.

No.

As Revan pointed out there are degrees. Wanda acting on instinct and pain is not the same as consciously torturing people. Notably Wanda DOES ultimately do the right thing in the end.

So if they accidentally did it, the blame is gone? Cool.