The OotS Thread III

[Ralin]

Capped at 1d8+5. It's pretty damn feeble.

Check again. The Mass version goes up to 1d8+25.

[Imperial Overlord]

Capped at 1d8+5. It's pretty damn feeble.

Check again. The Mass version goes up to 1d8+25.

We're talking about Cure Light Wounds, not Mass Cure Light Wounds.

[Crazedwraith]

Elan has Mass Cure light Wounds

and given Irbis was talking about how many people there were to use it on, i think he meant Mass Cure light wounds as well.

eta: And if he followed through on his plan in that comic, he may well have Cure Critical Wounds as well.

[Irbis]

They're, what, somewhere in the 12th to 15th level range now? That's 1d8+12~15 hit points cured. Not the best, no, but it's a long way from useless without a dedicated healer or a few disposable wands of Cure Light Wounds.

The main problem here is - 20-25 HP it heals is much less than one round of damage or even single attack at ~15th level. The other, much serious problem is, what if Xykon or Tarquin focus one character? You either waste it on one character, or risk focused character dying from damage. In fact, seeing most dangerous opponents OotS have, Redcloak, Durkula, Makack, and Tarquin all have bad multiple opponent damage options but very dangerous single opponent damage I can't see it being useful. Even Xykon going derp and not focusing one enemy at a time will be something like Meteor Swarm or Maximized Fireball which MCLW does little against.

[Ralin]

The main problem here is - 20-25 HP it heals is much less than one round of damage or even single attack at ~15th level.

Granted, but that's true of pretty much every curative spell short of Heal by that point. At least Elan's spell gives them some healing options, and can even deal some damage to their undead enemies in the process if they're lucky.

I agree it's a long way from optimal, but in the absence of a cleric or the aforementioned cheap healing wands for out of combat use it's about the best they can hope for.

[Ahriman238]

I'm not expecting Elan to cast the critical Cure spell in a pitched battle. All I'm saying is that adventuring without a cleric is death by a thousand cuts. Every encounter weakens you more, and you recover only so much from resting, forcing you to use expensive potions you'll need later. Elan's healing abilities can't negate that entirely, but they can lessen the impact. Maybe enough to make a difference.

Or I'm dead wrong, and Belkar just goaded Roy into a death march that will only end when Xykon and Redcloak turn up to cherry-tap them into the grave.

[Napoleon the Clown]

In-combat healing is a sub-par use of a Cleric anyway. A proper healstick uses a literal healstick (aka wand) to make sure everyone is in good shape after the fight is over. And if the spell is on your spell list you don't need to make a check to use the wand. You don't even need a caster to put a wand of (Mass) Cure Light to good use, just someone who can consistently make what becomes a pretty trivial UMD check.

Now, Elan's spell casting utility is highly limited thanks to him not having any hard-hitting spells. Without those a caster is far less potent in combat. An Illusion spell can make a good distraction but it isn't going to kill anyone.

[Grumman]

In-combat healing is a sub-par use of a Cleric anyway. A proper healstick uses a literal healstick (aka wand) to make sure everyone is in good shape after the fight is over.

I agree with you - preemptive healing in the form of disabling your enemy faster is more effective - but I'll just mention the Crusader as a class designed for in-combat healing.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

The endgame 3.5 material and 4th was built around healers not having to spend entire turns healing, but do it as a side effect of their other actions, which is a lot different from how the original healing classes were built in 3rd.

[Irbis]

In-combat healing is a sub-par use of a Cleric anyway. A proper healstick uses a literal healstick (aka wand) to make sure everyone is in good shape after the fight is over. And if the spell is on your spell list you don't need to make a check to use the wand. You don't even need a caster to put a wand of (Mass) Cure Light to good use, just someone who can consistently make what becomes a pretty trivial UMD check.

In fact, the whole Cure X line is bad, seeing it never quite heals damage being done by spells of comparable level, making them viable only for class builds boosting healing with various tricks. In fact, in optimized play, the only healing spell outside Heal in a pinch being used is X Vigour line.

Now, Elan's spell casting utility is highly limited thanks to him not having any hard-hitting spells. Without those a caster is far less potent in combat. An Illusion spell can make a good distraction but it isn't going to kill anyone.

Which is ironic seeing properly built Bard is very strong when he uses not damaging spells, so called Save or Die ones. But, in non-optimized setting like OotS people do prefer simple blasting and somehow never seem to realize just how strong properly buffed SoD are.

Well, except Xykon. His paralysing touch, symbol of madness, forcecage, drains, etc. are all SoD-class attacks. Isn't it ironic blasting Sorcerer seems to best caster of the world?

[Simon_Jester]

Xykon just likes massive destruction. That means lots of blasting, because that's a very visible kind of destruction. But he also likes totally ruining and destroying huge swarms of enemies, and has a necromancer's interest in things like Energy Drain.

V seems to be more into blasting, by comparison- we don't really see him going 'optimized' except when he's got those soul splices going, giving him access to the powerful spells of those specialist wizards.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

V seems to be more into blasting, by comparison- we don't really see him going 'optimized' except when he's got those soul splices going, giving him access to the powerful spells of those specialist wizards.

Actually, a part of V's development since the splice incident is a change in tactics to go with the change in behavior. When the slavers attacked, V cast Haste the first round instead of the usual Fireball, since it ends up doing more to influence the combat despite being neither flashy nor self-aggrandising.

[PainRack]

Is it fair to say that the Order is doing exactly what Tarquon wanted? Outside of the dramatic chase scene, they're also paving the way and disabling vital traps, one can imagine that Nale initial tactics of using Fireball to drive them deeper is working.

[Lord of the Abyss]

V seems to be more into blasting, by comparison- we don't really see him going 'optimized' except when he's got those soul splices going, giving him access to the powerful spells of those specialist wizards.

Actually, a part of V's development since the splice incident is a change in tactics to go with the change in behavior. When the slavers attacked, V cast Haste the first round instead of the usual Fireball, since it ends up doing more to influence the combat despite being neither flashy nor self-aggrandising.

There was also the bit where he/she fought Zz'dtri, who had optimized his spells & defenses against V's arcane magics. Instead of just keeping on blasting, V came up with the tactic of Dominating that kobold archer YukYuk and using him to fill Zz'dtri full of arrows instead.

[Lord of the Abyss]

And 882 is up!

Interesting foreshadowing...

[Irbis]

Let me guess, "-sent a note to the rest of Team Tarquin to gather at location known as 'Windy Canyon' ASAP..."

[LadyTevar]

Once again, Tarquin is far too genre-savvy.

[Ahriman238]

Elan's evil dad is a bit scary like that.

Interesting in that vamp!Durkon seems to be like a new entity, they speak to him as a child and he doesn't know that as a vamp he should stay out of the sun.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

He's a vampire spawn at the moment. He's thus under Malak's total domination while in this state, so having him have a new personality makes sense as an interpretation. It's heavily implied that Malak wants to bring Durkon into full and free vampirism when he has a chance, where he'll have his personality again.

[Kuja]

Let me guess, "-sent a note to the rest of Team Tarquin to gather at location known as 'Windy Canyon' ASAP..."

That wouldn't surprise me. Someone's going to need to distract Xykon and Redcloak while the Order tries to pull its shit together.

[Simon_Jester]

He's a vampire spawn at the moment. He's thus under Malak's total domination while in this state, so having him have a new personality makes sense as an interpretation. It's heavily implied that Malak wants to bring Durkon into full and free vampirism when he has a chance, where he'll have his personality again.

Also, not having free will may mean vampire!Durkon isn't using basic common sense. If I knew I'd been vampirized, wanted to avoid pain, and knew the basic weaknesses of vampires, I'd decide to avoid sunlight. But I'd have to have enough self-will to think of that and make a logical inference.

Another thing: not all freshly made undead show childlike behavior. Tsukiko's did, and Malack's did... but both of them already think of those undead as their children! Maybe the reason certain undead act in certain ways has more to do with their creator/master's expectation and 'programming,' and less to do with any true nature they have.

[Alkaloid]

I'm starting to ponder where the Order is going to get some backup at this point. They could still take what's left of Team Nale, but Tarquin and Malack are likely to be too much for them at this point, let alone the rest of their crew, and Xykon is inbound with Redcloak as well and they were never up to taking him one on one.

The Sapphire guard are unlikely because Hinjo, O-Chul and the paladin who had a baby are the only members likely to be useful to them, and they actually have to stick with the refugee fleet and keep it from falling apart, and there haven't been many other options. Elans mentor could possibly turn up by accident and cause some havoc before Tarquin kills him as is thematically appropriate, but I keep coming back to Roys family. Hi father was useless, his sister likely too low level, but his grandfather was apparently a higher level fighter than Roy was (that was what I got from their interaction in the afterlife anyway) which means he had a party of his own, and assuming some of them were not human, are likely to be still alive and in fighting shape. Unless he was a member of the order of the squiggle, which is unlikely but they did go to a lot of effort to disguise themselves. But yeah, the order need to get really lucky and really clever or find some serious cavalry toot sweet.

[Rogue 9]

I'm starting to ponder where the Order is going to get some backup at this point. They could still take what's left of Team Nale, but Tarquin and Malack are likely to be too much for them at this point, let alone the rest of their crew, and Xykon is inbound with Redcloak as well and they were never up to taking him one on one.

The Sapphire guard are unlikely because Hinjo, O-Chul and the paladin who had a baby are the only members likely to be useful to them, and they actually have to stick with the refugee fleet and keep it from falling apart, and there haven't been many other options. Elans mentor could possibly turn up by accident and cause some havoc before Tarquin kills him as is thematically appropriate, but I keep coming back to Roys family. Hi father was useless, his sister likely too low level, but his grandfather was apparently a higher level fighter than Roy was (that was what I got from their interaction in the afterlife anyway) which means he had a party of his own, and assuming some of them were not human, are likely to be still alive and in fighting shape. Unless he was a member of the order of the squiggle, which is unlikely but they did go to a lot of effort to disguise themselves. But yeah, the order need to get really lucky and really clever or find some serious cavalry toot sweet.

Hinjo was told that Xykon left Azure City, panicked, and dropped everything to rush back to the fleet. This was the last we saw of him, and the first we'd seen of him in several dozen strips before, so presumably that fact is important since Burlew took time out to specifically show it to us.

[Napoleon the Clown]

He's a vampire spawn at the moment. He's thus under Malak's total domination while in this state, so having him have a new personality makes sense as an interpretation. It's heavily implied that Malak wants to bring Durkon into full and free vampirism when he has a chance, where he'll have his personality again.

No, he's a proper vampire. Vampire spawn is based off hit dice, not whether or not you've got free will. He's just enslaved to Malak's will for the time being.

[Panzersharkcat]

I'm starting to ponder where the Order is going to get some backup at this point. They could still take what's left of Team Nale, but Tarquin and Malack are likely to be too much for them at this point, let alone the rest of their crew, and Xykon is inbound with Redcloak as well and they were never up to taking him one on one.

I'm guessing Team Tarquin will be the real back up if the shit hits the fan. Tarquin's only in it to secure the gate and to see how Roy does and if Xykon comes knocking, it'd be right for them to temporarily team up, smacking sense (or just outright knocking out) Nale if they have to.