Game of Thrones Season 4 discussion (book spoilers included)

[Ralin]

We haven't seen Rickon since he split with Bran south of the Wall. Did I miss something about his storyline?

He seems to be on the island of The Cannibals Who Love House Stark And Hate Everyone Else. And he likely has warg powers, aggression issues and very little in the way of restraint. A friend of mine keeps talking about how when Davos goes there it's going to be this Apocalypse Now/Heart of Darkness homage where everyone else in his group is picked off one by one and dragged off into the night screaming, with Rickon as their crazy child king.

(I haven't actually seen/read either of those things, so I may be remembering the analogy wrong)

[Alferd Packer]

Actually, the Skagosi, while nominally loyal to House Stark and the North, are so isolated and autonomous that they basically rule themselves. I don't think they have any kind of Manderly-style loyalty to the Starks; we may find Rickon and Osha simply living amongst them as regular Skagosi--who just happen to have a giant, semi-feral direwolf with them.

[Raw Shark]

Actually, the Skagosi, while nominally loyal to House Stark and the North, are so isolated and autonomous that they basically rule themselves. I don't think they have any kind of Manderly-style loyalty to the Starks; we may find Rickon and Osha simply living amongst them as regular Skagosi--who just happen to have a giant, semi-feral direwolf with them.

Yeah, I doubt they'll announce themselves rather than try to blend in, and they both seem pretty apt at the whole wild savage routine.

Nitpick: Manderly-style loyalty is setting the bar rather high, considering that the Starks totally saved their asses back in the day. The Skagosi probably don't even achieve Liddle-style loyalty.

[Ralin]

Well maybe I'm remembering that part wrong, but I was under the impression that they had reason to expect the people on Skagos to still be loyal to House Stark. What with them sending their only known surviving male Stark heir there to live with the people who we have established to be cannibals.

Either way, between Shaggy Dog and his warg powers I'd say it's still quite possible that Rickon will attract attention/followers. Even though he's a child who appears to be in the process of going feral. Perhaps especially because he is a child who appears to be in the process of going feral.

[Raw Shark]

Well maybe I'm remembering that part wrong, but I was under the impression that they had reason to expect the people on Skagos to still be loyal to House Stark. What with them sending their only known surviving male Stark heir there to live with the people who we have established to be cannibals.

Yeah, they're cool with the Starks, but they're not at the top end of the die-hard fanatics. Either way, I think Osha and Rickon are going to try to fly under the radar because stupid not to.

Either way, between Shaggy Dog and his warg powers I'd say it's still quite possible that Rickon will attract attention/followers. Even though he's a child who appears to be in the process of going feral. Perhaps especially because he is a child who appears to be in the process of going feral.

There's a popular fan theory that Shaggy Dog is actually warging into Rickon (explaining his wild rages) due to having the connection and the stronger will, which I think would be kind of horrifyingly awesome, if true.

[Ralin]

Well damn. Hadn't heard that one.

[Vympel]

Rickon is at Skagos with Osha and Shaggydog in the books. In the show, they went to the Last Hearth, the seat of House Umber. Keep in mind that in the show continuity, the Greatjon remains free (confirmed by Bryan Cogman).

Of course they may still end up making it so that they end up in Skagos, but ultimately does it matter where Davos has to sail to get Rickon?

[Crazedwraith]

So I hear the books have had Sansa come straight out to the Vale as Sansa? How can that possible not fuck up the entire plot? Bring Cersei down on them for hiding her and so on?

[Lord Relvenous]

So I hear the books have had Sansa come straight out to the Vale as Sansa? How can that possible not fuck up the entire plot? Bring Cersei down on them for hiding her and so on?

I assume you mean the show has her come right out? In the books she is still Alayne. That said, in the show Sansa only reveals herself to three of the Lords of the Vale, who all promise to keep her secret (which is why she has dyed hair in her last scene in ep8). It's not like she declared herself in front of the common folk or something. None of the lords have any love for the Lannisters (remember, they think the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn).

Honestly, the way the show is doing it is a bit more streamlined, as itSpoiler

justifies Sansa's betrothal to Harry the Heir, as Sansa Stark is probably the most desirable marriage in all of Westeros. The books have Harry agree to a betrothal with a bastard, which is a harder sell

[Crazedwraith]

Shit. Yes I meant 'i heard the show had her come out as Sansa and not pretend to be Alayne like in the books'

[Spekio]

She is still marryed to our favorite dwarf. I find it hard to believe that even Tommen would recognize her birth right. Albeit it could be possible if the Lannisters were removed from play.

[Ralin]

She is still marryed to our favorite dwarf. I find it hard to believe that even Tommen would recognize her birth right. Albeit it could be possible if the Lannisters were removed from play.

It was pretty common knowledge that Tyrion never consumated. In the show Shae actually said so in open court. And there's a plenty reasonable argument that Joffery didn't have the right to force her to marry on top of that.

[Lord Relvenous]

She is still marryed to our favorite dwarf. I find it hard to believe that even Tommen would recognize her birth right. Albeit it could be possible if the Lannisters were removed from play.

It's not about what the Iron Throne will recognize. It's about what you can use to build support in other families. Sansa has a justifiable claim to the North, a claim which could be upheld through combat.

[Spekio]

It was pretty common knowledge that Tyrion never consumated. In the show Shae actually said so in open court. And there's a plenty reasonable argument that Joffery didn't have the right to force her to marry on top of that.

You do realise that the consumation itself is irrelevant, right? Book!Margaery Tyrell probably fucked Renly, and Show!Margaery did fuck other people.

The Boltons, who are Lannister's allies will not give up wardenship of the north, and the Lannisters won't force them to do so.

The only way her claim has value is if someone can seize it. It will only happen if littlefinger is backing either Dany or Aegon.

Seeing Littlefinger cannot climb higher in the social ladder, I was kind of expecting him to take Alayne as a paramour or something, and that the daughter thing was for Lysa's benefit.

[Ralin]

You do realise that the consumation itself is irrelevant, right? Book!Margaery Tyrell probably fucked Renly, and Show!Margaery did fuck other people.

Since when and says who, respectively. People were joking about how she was likely to stay a maiden in Renly's bed.

[Scrib]

Can't the king just void Tyrion's marriage and claims as a traitor of the throne? This is an extreme situation, why not?

[Spekio]

Since when

It has been a theme throughout the entire series that people follow or ignore law and custom whenever it benefits them? Lenny yelding, the Red Wedding, legitimization of bastards, etc.

Cersei was fucking Jaime before wedding Robert.

Do you really think Tywin gave a shit if Joffrey's bride was pure when she was no more than a political tool ?

and says who, respectively. People were joking about how she was likely to stay a maiden in Renly's bed.

Because they were mocking him? I'm no arguing that he was gay and while he was by no means the most cunning king candidate, I assume he was not a complete moron and he must have known that Tyrell gold would have backed his war effort, and a child would be the way of sealing the deal with them.

[Spekio]

Can't the king just void Tyrion's marriage and claims as a traitor of the throne? This is an extreme situation, why not?

He could, but why would he? To slight the Boltons?

Her house openly rebelled against the Iron Throne and she is implicated on a King's murder. Littlefinger is already a high lord and legal guardian of one of the four Wardens. Why would he force such an outcome.

[Scrib]

All true.

[Alferd Packer]

And now, 23+ minutes of reaction to the Oberyn/Gregor fight.

[Ralin]

Littlefinger is already a high lord and legal guardian of one of the four Wardens. Why would he force such an outcome.

Did Robert never get around to naming someone else Warden of the East like he said he would in book one?

[Crazedwraith]

Littlefinger is already a high lord and legal guardian of one of the four Wardens. Why would he force such an outcome.

Did Robert never get around to naming someone else Warden of the East like he said he would in book one?

Yeah. The Vale kind of just ignored it though. Lysa made everyone call Robert the 'true Warden of the East'

[Ralin]

Yeah. The Vale kind of just ignored it though. Lysa made everyone call Robert the 'true Warden of the East'

I remembered that much. Just wasn't sure who the official Iron Throne-approved Warden of the East ended up being. Because it sure as hell doesn't appear to be Jaime.

[Lord Relvenous]

And now, 23+ minutes of reaction to the Oberyn/Gregor fight.

I'm such a horrible person for enjoying this as much as I did.

[Irbis]

The Boltons, who are Lannister's allies will not give up wardenship of the north, and the Lannisters won't force them to do so.

The only way her claim has value is if someone can seize it. It will only happen if littlefinger is backing either Dany or Aegon.

That 'someone' can be 'the whole of the north', you know. Littlefinger has to be aware how everyone there hates Boltons and Freys, producing Sansa is likely to get both houses quickly develop several cases of Angrybeheading.

With North, Vale, and Riverlands all supporting him and Lannisters quickly going down the drain in Book 5 Littlefinger as of now can grab half of the seven kingdoms all by himself, hell, maybe even go for the throne if Connington and Iron Isles weaken last relatively untouched pro-throne big house enough, doubly so if he can make deal with Dorne. Yes, it would take some scheming, but as of now, he has better shot than anyone else.