Batman vs. the Dresdenverse.

[The Romulan Republic]

Scenario 1... Batman loses and loses hard unless he manages to completely incapacitate Morgan on his first strike. Period. Morgan has better than two centuries of close quarters fighting which he has used against super-human enemies. Plus, he has fucking magic. For any version of batman acting alone, he is screwed. Magic is not just an outside context problem, it is *the* outside context problem. Nearly infinite options, break the laws of physics etc. Scarecrow created hallucinations that someone can tell are not real. A wizard in the dresdenverse can create hyper-realistic illusions, like throwing up 9 of himself, or making batman dodge a phantom truck. Morgan can veil himself and become undetectable--sight, sound, smell, none of those will function. He can casually lift batman off the ground immobile and then impale him, stimulate his muscles into tonic paralysis and run him through.

Or he might not run him through. He might just bind him in place by wrapping him in his own cape (NO CAPES!) and explain what Batman just *did*. Unless batman can knock him unconscious before being detected.

I can see why people might give comics Batman a better chance, since he deals with magic users and super-powered beings regularly and is, as I said, basically character wank personified at times. And it is just possible in Dresden Files for a prepared mortal to take out a wizards (though generally by surprise).

But as far as Nolan Bats vs. Morgan goes... yeah, I think I have to pretty much agree with this assessment.

Though I do have to nitpick a couple points, even if they don't change the overall outcome.

1. Is there any indication that Morgan has a particular skill with illusions? For all we know, he might be like Harry in that respect.

2. Morgan, from what we've seen of him in combat, doesn't seem that creative with his use of spells. He's more a powerhouse, from what I recall (and a very good swordsman).

Scenario 2... Batman could do some work here, for a while. He will eventually figure out that the mob has been replaced by Marcone, and will start going after his goons and trying to work his way up. At some point he meets Marcone as Bruce Wayne, and Marcone will already know who he is because the Valkyrie retainer picked up one of his batarangs and tracked him back to Wayne Manor. At which point, Marcone gets him into a private chat. Points out that the crime rate has dropped, and that he has assets suppressing the usual rogue's gallery. Marcone's hookers are all taken care of high-prices call-girls, most of his big crimes are financial and don't actually hurt the city residents, and if Batman comes after him in earnest the gloves come off.

Batman will do so anyway, then he meets that Valkyrie retainer and everything I said about Morgan also applies to her, only she is more durable than a human in the short term, has super-human physical attributes, and likes to use axes.

Thing is, Gard doesn't have the versatility (or if she does, she hasn't shown it) with magic that a wizard does. Besides being superhumanly tough (as in- can fight with her guts hanging out of her) and being a good melee fighter, she seems largely dependent on those runes she carries around with her. She's good, but I honestly wouldn't put her in a league with Morgan, based on what I can recall her actually doing in the books.

There's also the possibility of Batman finding his own supernatural allies, once he becomes aware of the supernatural world. Batman may tend to patrol alone and not be terribly social, but he's smart enough to find allies who can fill the gaps in his own capabilities. For Nolan Batman, that's mainly Alfred for general support, Fox for providing tech. and doing more complicated science stuff, and Gordon for the police connections, and occasionally as back-up for the really big fights (also Robin and Selina in the final film). So in all likelihood, upon finding out that their existed a huge magical gap in his knowledge and abilities, he'd find someone to help fill it.

That's less applicable to scenario one, where he just find himself suddenly dropped into a street fight with wizards. But in this scenario, its a game of long-term strategy. Honestly, he's at no more of a disadvantage than Marcone was initially either. Marcone was just a rich criminal with connections, brains, and a strong will initially. So is Bruce.

Hell, he's probably rich enough to hire his own Valkaries and Einherjar from Monoc, though that's not really his usual modus operandi.

Most likely, the moment he satisfies himself that magic is real (and if he gathers information on the scale he's capable of before taking on Marcone directly, he could do so), then he probably starts digging, finds the paranet, and gets himself a supernatural consultant of his own.

Scenario 3... Batman is just fucked.

Yeah, again, if its just Bats.

If he even survives the first round, he has the resources to start catching up fast.

Remember, Batman isn't just a guy in a bat suite. He's one of the richest and most well-connected men in the world. In terms of purely mundane resources, he's more than capable of playing on Marcone's level, and possibly the Denarians' too (how much money does Nicodemus have, I wonder).

[Alyrium Denryle]

I can see why people might give comics Batman a better chance, since he deals with magic users and super-powered beings regularly and is, as I said, basically character wank personified at times. And it is just possible in Dresden Files for a prepared mortal to take out a wizards (though generally by surprise).

A prepared mortal, acting with surprise, can take out a wizard yes. Generally with a sniper rifle from a KM away. Batman does not operate that way. He wants to hand incapacitated criminals over to Gotham's "finest". Which means he has to actually subdue a live wizard. In the scenario you've outlined, comic batman does not have a prayer of doing that because he has to act quickly, and even if he manages to escape, Batman has no idea how Dresdenverse magic works. He won't be able to use DC universe magic as a reference point to attack later or protect himself. For example, he can be tracked using the principle of Sympathy, and has no way of guarding against that.

1. Is there any indication that Morgan has a particular skill with illusions? For all we know, he might be like Harry in that respect.

Harry manages some pretty good illusions in Changes, and Morgan is more skilled than he is across the board. He has not demonstrated particular skill with illusions, but he does not need particular skill, he just needs baseline competence. Harry is particularly inept with illusions, and yet when pressed, he manages. Veils are also a form of illusion (Subset: phantasm, not hallucination), and Morgan is good with those. It stands to reason he would be at least competent with other forms.

2. Morgan, from what we've seen of him in combat, doesn't seem that creative with his use of spells. He's more a powerhouse, from what I recall (and a very good swordsman).

We've seen him in combat exactly twice. Once fighting a horde of zombies, another while completely enraged trying to take Harry out. In both cases, overwhelming force is the best strategy (or the only one available to him given his mental state). That said, you don't survive 200 years of Wardening without being a little bit clever. This is the guy who contrived to nuke a skinwalker, and managed to escape the White Council headquarters while being pursued by other wardens and suffering one major stab wound.

He is set in his ways and mode of thinking certainly, but he isn't slow on his feet.

Thing is, Gard doesn't have the versatility (or if she does, she hasn't shown it) with magic that a wizard does. Besides being superhumanly tough (as in- can fight with her guts hanging out of her) and being a good melee fighter, she seems largely dependent on those runes she carries around with her. She's good, but I honestly wouldn't put her in a league with Morgan, based on what I can recall her actually doing in the books.

She isn't a proper mortal wizard, so sure...she lacks versatility. On the other hand, she manages to take out Denarians pretty well. We know she can use thaumaturgy, prepare runic defenses at fixed locations without a threshold, and put up defensive wards that it takes actual satanic rituals to blast through. She is also physically super-human.

There's also the possibility of Batman finding his own supernatural allies, once he becomes aware of the supernatural world. Batman may tend to patrol alone and not be terribly social, but he's smart enough to find allies who can fill the gaps in his own capabilities. For Nolan Batman, that's mainly Alfred for general support, Fox for providing tech. and doing more complicated science stuff, and Gordon for the police connections, and occasionally as back-up for the really big fights (also Robin and Selina in the final film). So in all likelihood, upon finding out that their existed a huge magical gap in his knowledge and abilities, he'd find someone to help fill it.

Problem: he has no starting point. Magic is a complete outside context problem for Nolan Batman. He has to penetrate a secret underworld he has zero connection to, that tries very hard to keep secret. Marcone managed, but it took him years. The low-level practicioners he might be able to find and recruit relatively quickly wont be able to help him much because their powers are limited, as is their actual knowledge.

That's less applicable to scenario one, where he just find himself suddenly dropped into a street fight with wizards. But in this scenario, its a game of long-term strategy. Honestly, he's at no more of a disadvantage than Marcone was initially either. Marcone was just a rich criminal with connections, brains, and a strong will initially. So is Bruce.

Hell, he's probably rich enough to hire his own Valkaries and Einherjar from Monoc, though that's not really his usual modus operandi.

Marcone had an advantage (other than the head start). He was steeped in magic his entire life. He just didn't know it. At some point, he noticed something fishy was going on in the world, and put the pieces together. He developed his contacts over the course of many years in all probability. He likely got taken in my more than one charlatan. Nolan Batman does not have that benefit. The first thing he hears about it is "Hi Bruce. By the way, I can get a platoon of Einherjaren into the batcave with C4 using magic, and there is nothing you can do about it, but I would rather help you deal with the criminally insane instead so...truce?"

If he even survives the first round, he has the resources to start catching up fast.

Remember, Batman isn't just a guy in a bat suite. He's one of the richest and most well-connected men in the world. In terms of purely mundane resources, he's more than capable of playing on Marcone's level, and possibly the Denarians' too (how much money does Nicodemus have, I wonder).

The Denarians are immortals who manage to support a (multi-generational) small army of cultists and who are able to:

1) Live and travel in opulent splendor
2) Equip that army of cultists with expensive modern military kit, and transport them from place to place untraceably
3) Hire *very* high-priced contractors

I don't know how much they have, but it's a large amount of wealth. Never underestimate the financial advantage that being immortal brings to the table.

There is nothing Batman can bring to the table that is going to stop the Denarians. For one, Nicodemus will help his own, which means Ms. Al Ghul is going to have backup. Backup that includes Denarian sorcerers who while augmented are still mortal wizards for the purposes of things like hexing tech into oblivion. At which point, Batman and all the backup he can bring are just mortals with guns, and we both know how well mortals with guns hold up against Denarians. They might be able to deal with some of the more... bestial ones, but that is about it.

[The Romulan Republic]

A prepared mortal, acting with surprise, can take out a wizard yes. Generally with a sniper rifle from a KM away.

Didn't Murphy off a Fomor sorcerer in Aftermath?

Also, Marcone nailed one, albeit with magical weaponry and heavy preparation. He notes that he had intended those defences to be used on Dresden, so if you have enough money and info, a mortal can put together defences that have at least a credible chance of killing a Council-level talent in open battle (and an experienced warden at that).

Batman does not operate that way. He wants to hand incapacitated criminals over to Gotham's "finest".

As a rule, yes. And its a good argument against comics Batman's chances, I suppose.

However, Nolan Batman is a bit... flexible regarding the no-killing thing. If he was willing to employ lethal force on the League of Shadows, he might be willing to do so against a hostile wizard, if he considered them a great enough threat.

Which means he has to actually subdue a live wizard. In the scenario you've outlined, comic batman does not have a prayer of doing that because he has to act quickly, and even if he manages to escape, Batman has no idea how Dresdenverse magic works. He won't be able to use DC universe magic as a reference point to attack later or protect himself. For example, he can be tracked using the principle of Sympathy, and has no way of guarding against that.

Yeah, its a different magic system, though not, I think, a less powerful one.

Still, he's at least familiar with the concept of the supernatural, and has supernatural allies and contacts. And in a crossover like this, you'd likely be merging the two systems/settings anyway.

Harry manages some pretty good illusions in Changes, and Morgan is more skilled than he is across the board. He has not demonstrated particular skill with illusions, but he does not need particular skill, he just needs baseline competence. Harry is particularly inept with illusions, and yet when pressed, he manages. Veils are also a form of illusion (Subset: phantasm, not hallucination), and Morgan is good with those. It stands to reason he would be at least competent with other forms.

When did Morgan use illusions? You're probably right, I just don't recall it.

But yeah, I'd expect a senior warden to have at least some skill in that field, and in most (non-black) magical fields. Conceded.

We've seen him in combat exactly twice. Once fighting a horde of zombies, another while completely enraged trying to take Harry out. In both cases, overwhelming force is the best strategy (or the only one available to him given his mental state). That said, you don't survive 200 years of Wardening without being a little bit clever. This is the guy who contrived to nuke a skinwalker, and managed to escape the White Council headquarters while being pursued by other wardens and suffering one major stab wound.

He is set in his ways and mode of thinking certainly, but he isn't slow on his feet.

Agreed.

The nuke thing does show a capacity for more imaginative tactics. I should have remembered that.

So, I think we can agree that in all probability, without the benefit of surprise and a very fast takedown, Batman in any incarnation loses to Morgan.

She isn't a proper mortal wizard, so sure...she lacks versatility. On the other hand, she manages to take out Denarians pretty well. We know she can use thaumaturgy, prepare runic defenses at fixed locations without a threshold, and put up defensive wards that it takes actual satanic rituals to blast through. She is also physically super-human.

All of that is true, with one caveat: I don't actually recall her killing a Denarian personally. She temporarily inconvenienced Tessa. Who would then have killed her, most likely, if Harry and Thomas hadn't been there.

Which, granted, is impressive, especially considering that she was badly wounded at the time, but I'm not convinced she's an easy match for a Denarian without special weaponry/prep. time.

Problem: he has no starting point. Magic is a complete outside context problem for Nolan Batman. He has to penetrate a secret underworld he has zero connection to, that tries very hard to keep secret.

Except it doesn't, really.

The only semi-hard rule, for the most part, seems to be "Don't bring non-magical authorities into supernatural conflicts", and even their, they cheat.

They don't flaunt it, but there is no mass cover-up a la Harry Potter. People just look the other way, because its easier.

Marcone managed, but it took him years. The low-level practicioners he might be able to find and recruit relatively quickly wont be able to help him much because their powers are limited, as is their actual knowledge.

Start of series, this is probably true, unless Bruce gets rather lucky. Though part of the reason it took Marcone four-five books to amass substantial supernatural defences is because Harry turned down his offer in book one and book two (we don't know how long he was at it before then). He was still able to survive at least two supernatural foes taking a swing at him before hiring Monoc's support, too.

Later series, the Paranet can put Bruce in touch with a Warden if a major supernatural threat moves into Gotham.

Honestly, I think that the Paranet is probably the best idea Harry ever had for defending the world from supernatural threats. Knowledge is power, and non-magical Council communications seem to be stuck in the '50s or so.

Marcone had an advantage (other than the head start). He was steeped in magic his entire life. He just didn't know it. At some point, he noticed something fishy was going on in the world, and put the pieces together. He developed his contacts over the course of many years in all probability. He likely got taken in my more than one charlatan. Nolan Batman does not have that benefit. The first thing he hears about it is "Hi Bruce. By the way, I can get a platoon of Einherjaren into the batcave with C4 using magic, and there is nothing you can do about it, but I would rather help you deal with the criminally insane instead so...truce?"

Heh.

I don't see the relevance of Marcone growing up in a world with magic though (which Bruce would have too if you merge the settings for the sake of a crossover), if most people know little to nothing about it initially. He was a mortal who at some point learned about magic, had an open enough mind and enough guts to not just go into denial about it, and started looking deeper.

There is no reason I can see that Bruce Wayne can't do the same.

Sure, Marcone has the advantage of a head start. But as long as Batman gathers thorough intelligence on this new mob boss in town, and neither of them goes immediately to total war, there's no reason to assume that Marcone will completely get the drop on him.

So, advantage Marcone, but I don't think Batman's as helpless as you make him out to be here.

The Denarians are immortals who manage to support a (multi-generational) small army of cultists and who are able to:

1) Live and travel in opulent splendor
2) Equip that army of cultists with expensive modern military kit, and transport them from place to place untraceably
3) Hire *very* high-priced contractors

I don't know how much they have, but it's a large amount of wealth. Never underestimate the financial advantage that being immortal brings to the table.

Granted.

Of course, Wayne Enterprises can do all of those things too (minus the immortality), if with greater public scrutiny (has Batman ever been audited? ).

There is nothing Batman can bring to the table that is going to stop the Denarians. For one, Nicodemus will help his own, which means Ms. Al Ghul is going to have backup. Backup that includes Denarian sorcerers who while augmented are still mortal wizards for the purposes of things like hexing tech into oblivion. At which point, Batman and all the backup he can bring are just mortals with guns, and we both know how well mortals with guns hold up against Denarians. They might be able to deal with some of the more... bestial ones, but that is about it.

You are absolutely correct, of course, that the Denarians have sufficient capabilities to destroy Batman.

However, the Denarians don't always work together. In fact, they pointedly do not in canon. Moreover, Nicodemus's usual squad had no sorcerer other than Cassius as I recall, and Cassius always struck me as something of a lightweight.

Nicodemus could destroy Nolan Batman on his own, but he might simply give Talia a coin and leave her to succumb to its influence until he has need of her (or she comes to him), as with Harry in Death Masks (though Talia would doubtless be far easier and faster to corrupt). He's probably not going to give two shits about Batman if Batman isn't an obstacle to his plans.

And, let's be honest, a lot of the Denarians aren't terribly bright. And can be killed by guns (see Kinkaid, who nailed several of them in the aquarium). Batman doesn't normally use lethal firepower on humans, but Nolan Batman is a little more flexible on that point than some versions, and its debatable weather the Denarians are even really fully human any more.

Hmm... that makes me wonder which coin Nicodemus would be likely to give to Talia (somewhat contingent on availability, of course).

Edit: I think it would be best to take the third scenario as Bruce versus Denarian Talia plus the League of Shadows, not Bruce vs. the entire Order of the Blackened Denarii. If you bring in all the Denarians, then I think its only fair that Batman gets the Knights of the Cross on his side.

Though I should probably have specified a coin for Talia so we know what capabilities we're dealing with. Let's say Lashiel, since she's the one we know the most about, and it fits Talia as well as any of them, I think.

[Ralin]

So, I read the latest short story, A Fistful of Warlocks, awhile back.

Spoiler

There's a scene where Luccio first crosses paths with the titular warlocks in a bar and spots them before they spot her. When she's going over her options one of them boils down to 'strike first with overwhelming force.' Which she reflects would require magical fire. A lot of it. She ultimately decides against it for various practical reasons (would set off an inferno in a crowded building), but I thought it was interesting that she considered straight up killing them with magic an option that was on the table in the first place. In fact, the only mention of the Council's opinion on the subject was that it would violate one of their 'unspoken laws' against freely using magic in front of ignorant mortals.

Tends to confirm my suspicion that the "defense against black magic" exception to the 1st Law is much, much easier to invoke for Wardens, and possibly wizards in good standing in general, than it is for the magical community at large.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Council are hypocrites. Who knew?

It might also be that the tightened the restrictions post-Kemler.

I guess Luccio belongs to the "the best defense is a good offense" school of thought. But her apprentice or no, I think Morgan would be more reluctant to go that route. Kill someone preemptively, sure. But with magic? Morgan is hardline on the Laws, not just because the Council tells him to be, but because he believes it. In Turn Coat, he tells Harry that he would rather die that have Harry use black magic on his behalf.

He wouldn't use lethal magic on Batman willingly for the same reason Batman wouldn't shoot Morgan in the head willingly- its not in his character, and goes against his personal morals.

[Ralin]

The 'defense against dark magic users' exception exists for a good reason, and while that reason hasn't been canonically stated I'd bet hard money that it boils down to the Council not wanting to pass a law no one will follow. A wizard level talent can be expected to defend themselves against regular people without having to use lethal magic. Against an out and out sorcerer, not so much.

Spoiler

In the story it's a table with no less than four warlocks sitting at it and Luccio was pretty explicit in her narration that she had zero chance of taking them in a straight fight, despite already being a fairly powerful wizard at this point in her career.

[The Romulan Republic]

A warden might have the training to subdue someone with non-lethal magic and then deliver the killing stroke with their sword or a gun (the sword being made to cut through defensive enchantments as I recall).

But an average wizard running into a warlock isn't going to have those options. And against four capable warlocks, even a warden would be fucked, yeah. So the self-defence exemption is a prudent one on the Council's part.