Freddy vs. Jason

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-08-19 06:00am

Uh.... So do his bits magically reform into one whole, ala the T-1000, or what?? In any case, my central point stands: Freddy was still standing when Jason sank.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-08-20 10:25am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:

What do you mean "clearly?" Freddy took a hand inside the torso and the loss of an arm earlier in the fight without "dying", and the blow in question didn't even put him on the ground. All it caused him to do was drop the machete.
It made him fall to his knees heplessless watching the girl slowly pick up the machette and even gloat at him while all he could was snarl.... Thats a little more than simply dropping the machettee.

The "killing blow" that failed to knock the target off it's feet?
If you want to get tecchinical....Yes it did.

It was essentially irrelevant. Jason sank, exiting the fight, with Freddy still standing. The fact that someone else then "finished" Freddy, and that Jason happened to find the head afterwards, is meaningless.
Freddy wasn't standing he was dying of his wounds while Jason was still clearly aware of what was going on.

On the contrary. After dominating Jason and giving him the worst beating he's ever taken, Freddy switched tactics and used the biggest advantage he had in this matchup: Psychology. Jason was reduced to a whimpering child, offered no resistance at all, and appeared to be as close to true defeat as anyone came in this movie.
If that was his goals I'll call that a success...But Freddy bought him there to kill him...Even when his is basically a god he couldn't kill Jason...

And if you can possible think Freddy wasn't in danger of dying from the chest wound
then don't think some pshycosymatic water was drowning Jason. Child Jason proved he was still as unkillable as normal by taking a knife-finger in the head. Jason has shown that he still acts like he drowns in the other movies, it just stops bothering him after his lungs fill compleatly with water.

And those teenegers know shit about Jason

Freddy appeared to be working up a head of steam when that big cart full of earth happened to get stuck. Enough physical damage can apparently incapacitate Jason, since he doesn't get up instantly after taking a lot of huge hits, and SOMETHING has to put him down between movies.
Yet it didn't do what Freddy was apperently hoping it would when it smacked into both of them.

Oh and for the later movies, I think starting with 7, Jason is shown to be on his killing spree between movies.

As pointed out above, Jason's hand appeared to be slipping out even before the gas explosion hit, indicating that he was getting near his "incapacitation limit" in terms of damage. Furthermore, Freddy was the first out of the water after the explosion, while Jason struck his last blow and sank. And that last hit, which you deem a "killing blow", didn't really do anything more than cause Freddy to lose his grip on the machete.
Yet there both still fighting when the kids set the explosion off and then Jason comes back from that with enought strenght to silently move behind Freddy when all Freddy could do was wobble slowly towards the kids.

Freddy, however badly damaged, was on his feet when Jason exited the fight.

Nope, he was on his knees. Hepless as a baby dieing while Jason was still consios.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-08-20 01:38pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:It made him fall to his knees heplessless watching the girl slowly pick up the machette and even gloat at him while all he could was snarl.... Thats a little more than simply dropping the machettee.

That still puts him ahead of where Jason was at the time: Sinking like a brick, still as a corpse.

If you want to get tecchinical....Yes it did.

Oh, jeez, well a swift kick in the nuts will put me on my knees, but it's hardly a deathblow. Freddy was upright and conscious, Jason was not.

And if you can possible think Freddy wasn't in danger of dying from the chest wound then don't think some pshycosymatic water was drowning Jason.

That's just it. I'm not sure any amount of physical damage would truly "kill" either of these guys. Getting into Jason's head, forcing him to relive his original death, and killing him in his dreams was the best tactic I've heard of anyone using on Jason in a while.

Child Jason proved he was still as unkillable as normal by taking a knife-finger in the head. Jason has shown that he still acts like he drowns in the other movies, it just stops bothering him after his lungs fill compleatly with water.

Beside the point. With Jason's ability to fight back removed, he was effectively doomed if not for the drugs wearing off. Freddy would have been free to psychologically/physically clobber him endlessly and at will. Like I said, in the dreamworld there was no fight.

[/quote]Oh and for the later movies, I think starting with 7, Jason is shown to be on his killing spree between movies.

Which means he was put down in five other movies, not to mention the fact that he was lying in his grave at the start of this one, and not to mention the way he sank unmoving at the end. Enough damage can incapacitate Jason.

Yet there both still fighting when the kids set the explosion off and then Jason comes back from that with enought strenght to silently move behind Freddy when all Freddy could do was wobble slowly towards the kids.
Didn't he just pop out of the water to stick Freddy, and expend the last of his energy in the process? I remember him unceremoniously sinking after that, without anyone even hitting him again.

Nope, he was on his knees. Hepless as a baby dieing while Jason was still consios.

Kneeling and aware > unmoving and sinking

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-08-21 12:16am

Well, Jason has the ability to reginerate. That's presumably why he was able to come back out of the water. Freddy didn't exactly grow a body back after Jason came out. He did wink, so he's obviously not dead, but Jason still walked away from the fight in one piece. Freddy will be back.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-08-22 12:19pm

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:[

That still puts him ahead of where Jason was at the time: Sinking like a brick, still as a corpse.
Except he wasn't, he was still aware of what was going on around him. Just like Freddy.

Oh, jeez, well a swift kick in the nuts will put me on my knees, but it's hardly a deathblow. Freddy was upright and conscious, Jason was not.
There's a big difference between a kick to the nuts and a freaking arm thru the chest. And even kicked to the nuts you could still move. Not just sitiing there watching a chick laught at you while preparing to cut your head off.

That's just it. I'm not sure any amount of physical damage would truly "kill" either of these guys. Getting into Jason's head, forcing him to relive his original death, and killing him in his dreams was the best tactic I've heard of anyone using on Jason in a while.

Well, Freddy can die, its just that he reforms back into the dream world and can animate his remains. And while it was imaginative, it was proven to still be futile.

Beside the point. With Jason's ability to fight back removed, he was effectively doomed if not for the drugs wearing off. Freddy would have been free to psychologically/physically clobber him endlessly and at will. Like I said, in the dreamworld there was no fight.
He wasn't doomed, all freddy could do was stalemate/torment him till he woked up. Not a good standing if your basicaly a god at the time.

Which means he was put down in five other movies, not to mention the fact that he was lying in his grave at the start of this one, and not to mention the way he sank unmoving at the end. Enough damage can incapacitate Jason.[/quote] I've never watched the early movies but I know there is a difference in Jason between 4 and 6. Thats why he is referred to as zombie Jason if you are refering to him in the later movies. He was never stopped by damage.

Didn't he just pop out of the water to stick Freddy, and expend the last of his energy in the process? I remember him unceremoniously sinking after that, without anyone even hitting him again.

Nope, Jason was standing behind him on the dock where he wasn't a secound ago. Which means he got out of the water, came behind Freddy and stabbed him without anyone knowing he was there.

Kneeling and aware > unmoving and sinking

Kneeling heplessly dieing< Awake and regenerating.

However honestly I have no way of reconciling a logical reason Jason didn't killed those kids outside of plot. He should of had them dead to rights, I can only think that maybe, just maybe, he decided to let them go. Prehapes Child-Jason seeing the girl in the dream at least try to help him at first triggered some sort of emotional response.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-08-22 12:58pm

Actaully I take that back, I have seen Jason taking down by damage in one movie. In Jason X the robot hit him with some powerful weapons that sent him back dozens of feet and took off limbs and he was still trying to get up untill his head was almost compleatly blown off. Thats the amount of damage you need to do to incapisitate Jason. Freddy was no were near this level of damage.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-08-23 01:38pm

I distinctly remember Jason sinking like a brick, unmoving. How did he get there? Did he stick Freddy with the arm, then say "Hey friends, you finish him off. I'm just going to have a nice time sinking to the bottom of the lake."

We didn't see him mobile again until after a fade to black, and we have no idea how much time passed there.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-08-23 02:31pm

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:I distinctly remember Jason sinking like a brick, unmoving. How did he get there? Did he stick Freddy with the arm, then say "Hey friends, you finish him off. I'm just going to have a nice time sinking to the bottom of the lake."

Yep. He falls off the bridge after standing behind freddy and sticking him in the back.

We didn't see him mobile again until after a fade to black, and we have no idea how much time passed there.

Well, he was watching the girl, so he was aware of what was going on. And while your right we have no idea how long that was after I think not too long. Look at his regeneration rate, he regenerated his eyes in minutes mid-fight, nothing is taking him down with so little damage.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-08-25 12:40am

It's generally agreed that Freddy returns to the dreamworld when killed in the real world, correct? And Freddy was decapitated by the girl while Jason was sinking and apparently unconscious, right? So who's to say that last scene was in the real world at all?

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-08-25 01:22am

Superman wrote:anarchist, gotcha'

Anyway, how about this: This movie has been open since Friday (today is Sunday) and it's already taken in over 40 million. This is the first time either of these two horror icons have placed first for movie sales. GO FREDDY AND JASON!

It's worth pointing out that the box office competition are films like Gigli (gobble gobble!), Charlie's Angels: More Boobage, and Tomb Raider 2: The Quickening. Maybe it's not the worst summer for movies ever, but it's up there.

Bug-Eyed Earl · Post by **Bug-Eyed Earl** » 2003-08-25 05:22am

It's also the first movie since X2 this summer to be number 1 for two weeks in a row.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-08-25 11:42am

Was anyone else hoping for a Clue style ending to this movie? meaning depending on which theater you went to would determine who won the fight, so there could be three of four endings 1)Freddy wins 2) Jason wins 3)draw Freddy and Jason both live kids die 4) draw Freddy and Jason both die but the kids live....

I was atleast hoping for two endings, there should have been a clear victor, not the BS ending we were given where both are still alive.

T-1000 · Post by **T-1000** » 2003-08-25 02:52pm

Superman wrote:Jason: Jason really didn't change much. He's the same killing machine that he's always been. The only real difference is that he had a patch of long hair coming off the side of his head. Jason kicked some serious ass, he killed at least nine or ten people (probably more).

I actually saw the movie a second time and counted the number of people Jason he killed. He got 18.

Freddy got 1.

What does that tell you?

T-1000 · Post by **T-1000** » 2003-08-25 02:54pm

Patrick Degan wrote:Unlike Jason, Freddy Krueger has always been into quality, not quantity, when it comes to mass-murder.

Freddy doesn't know the meaning of the phrase mass-murder. He only gets like 3 or 4 people in any given movie on average.

Case in point, in FvJ, Freddy killed one person, Jason killed 18. Which one of them do you really think is into mass-murder more than the other????

T-1000 · Post by **T-1000** » 2003-08-25 02:56pm

anarchistbunny wrote: I don't like how well Freddy stood up to Jason in the real world. I haven't seen a Freddy movie in a long time, but IIRC he's not any stonger than a human in the real world, and although Jason was dominating the battle, Freddy was doing too good for a while.

I agree. Having seen a considerable number of both Jason and Freddy movies, Freddy should have dominated in the dream world as he did (except for that stupid water fear which they totally made up for Jason) and Jason should have ripped Freddy in half in the real world.

Of course, had Jason done as well as he should have against Freddy in the real world, the ending would have been very anticlimactic.

T-1000 · Post by **T-1000** » 2003-08-25 02:59pm

Superman wrote:Anarchist, Freddy does have super "powers" in the real world. On the third Elm Street movie he was able to animate his skeletal remains. He killed the main character's father and knocked out Dr. Gordon. Watch it again. He clearly demonstrates supernatural strength. Also, watch "Freddy's Dead." He is able to scale walls and stick to ceilings like Spiderman. So YES, FREDDY DOES HAVE LIMITED POWERS IN THE REAL WORLD.

This movie kept within the bounds of continuity.

Watch the first one again. Freddy got owned by a teenage girl with some household booby traps set up in advance. With that kind of record, Freddy looses to the brat from Home Alone.

Of course, I didn't find it all that unreasonable to think that Freddy would be slightly more than human if he were brought into the real world, and I still enjoyed the ending fight.

T-1000 · Post by **T-1000** » 2003-08-25 03:01pm

anarchistbunny wrote:
Superman wrote: Who cares about mass produced Pop Icons, america clearly wants tities and gore. TITTIES AND GORE!

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

Can I quote you on that, please?

T-1000 · Post by **T-1000** » 2003-08-25 03:04pm

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:
Freddy, however badly damaged, was on his feet when Jason exited the fight.

Actually, he was dying and he fell to his knees, allowing the main character to grab Jason's discarded machete and chop him off.

Also, Jason has a high threshold for damage, Freddy doesn't. Jason survived all the damage he sustained from that fight, Freddy wouldn't have, seeing as how his own hand had been ripped off and rammed through his chest. They just let the main character get the last shot in to say that the heroes won.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-08-26 01:30am

Superman wrote:Anarchist, Freddy does have super "powers" in the real world. On the third Elm Street movie he was able to animate his skeletal remains. He killed the main character's father and knocked out Dr. Gordon. Watch it again. He clearly demonstrates supernatural strength. Also, watch "Freddy's Dead." He is able to scale walls and stick to ceilings like Spiderman. So YES, FREDDY DOES HAVE LIMITED POWERS IN THE REAL WORLD.

This movie kept within the bounds of continuity.

But how do you know when they're asleep or not? Can't really.

T-1000 · Post by **T-1000** » 2003-08-27 01:40am

Shrykull wrote:
Superman wrote:Anarchist, Freddy does have super "powers" in the real world. On the third Elm Street movie he was able to animate his skeletal remains. He killed the main character's father and knocked out Dr. Gordon. Watch it again. He clearly demonstrates supernatural strength. Also, watch "Freddy's Dead." He is able to scale walls and stick to ceilings like Spiderman. So YES, FREDDY DOES HAVE LIMITED POWERS IN THE REAL WORLD.

This movie kept within the bounds of continuity.
But how do you know when they're asleep or not? Can't really.

That's a problem with most Freddy movies that I thought they handled very well in FvJ actually. You could always tell what happened with the characters and who was dreaming and who wasn't.