Emperor Palpatine vs. Yusuke Urameshi

[Connor MacLeod]

Ok, considering the points Connor has made I'm kinda forced to conceed as he is both right and the fact that I am working with second hand material as I haven't seen the episodes where Yusuke is doing this stuff for some time.

Its not that difficult to do. All you need to do is find the example, scale the resulting "hole", figure out what the method of destruction is (as I said, this can usually be determined by observation as well), and know the material properties. (timeframe is also important, as if it takes more than one second to do this, the output becomes "sustained.") All of the other relevant info (specific heat, melting points, heat of fusion or vaporization) can be found online. Hell I know there are even calculators that can do it for you fi you know the right parameters.

And no you would not get "I don't need calculations because I am right." shit. If I had a way I could think of for getting accurate calculations the'd have been posted awhile ago, so fuck off Connor.

why? I get the same bullshit every time in these debates. Some of us get tired of dealing with people who don't actually put some effort into constructing a logical argument before posting, yet act as if they have. So don't get pissy with me if I don't act all nicey nice to you. I don't consider it very polite to disregard my efforts either. (and whatver you may think, I *Do* put effort into figuring things out like this for just such debates because that is how analysis goes.)

[Connor MacLeod]

I will make a few observations. One thing that's worth noting is that Yusuke often goes through rapid decelerations, often with his own skull as primary impact point. I've seen him go from covering four times his own body length in flight(A good twenty feet/second) to a stop by crashing to the ground. I am forced to conclude the fact he's died(twice) has somehow toughed him up ridiculously, so I suspect he's not susceptible to simply being battered.

I think he's got TK powers. IIRC his training with the old psychic lady, he was trained to "suspend" himself above some sort of sharp pointy object by one finger. And given that the psychich chick has displayed TK like abilities, its not an unreasonable leap to do so. That would explain his unusual toughness (some sort of instinctive/trained "reactive" TK effect.)

As for the Spirit based attacks? In the living world, they seem definately chain reaction based, because they can't be DET(Dragons Of Darkness Flame vaporizes a guy with some random ash left over, yet the stadium floor isn't melted).

There is some measure of physical interaction though. Wasn't Yusuke able to knock over that teacher always harassing him with the s pirit gun?

[SirNitram]

I will make a few observations. One thing that's worth noting is that Yusuke often goes through rapid decelerations, often with his own skull as primary impact point. I've seen him go from covering four times his own body length in flight(A good twenty feet/second) to a stop by crashing to the ground. I am forced to conclude the fact he's died(twice) has somehow toughed him up ridiculously, so I suspect he's not susceptible to simply being battered.

I think he's got TK powers. IIRC his training with the old psychic lady, he was trained to "suspend" himself above some sort of sharp pointy object by one finger. And given that the psychich chick has displayed TK like abilities, its not an unreasonable leap to do so. That would explain his unusual toughness (some sort of instinctive/trained "reactive" TK effect.)

A potential, though these would be powers instinctual since his return and developed, as he can survive similar crashes during the tournament set up like that(I just saw one of those episodes, where he goes flying a good 50(?) feet, bouncing repeatedly. Often on his skull.). This reactive TK will offer some defense against an instant Force Choke death.

As for the Spirit based attacks? In the living world, they seem definately chain reaction based, because they can't be DET(Dragons Of Darkness Flame vaporizes a guy with some random ash left over, yet the stadium floor isn't melted).

There is some measure of physical interaction though. Wasn't Yusuke able to knock over that teacher always harassing him with the s pirit gun?

He knocked him out, and he fell down. There is momentum(First fight with Toguro Brothers, he propels Kurabara like a cannonshot), and some interaction(Same fight, chunks of the floor are ripped up by a particularly powerful shot). But it's effects on a living being are always more pronounced, so I chalk it up to partially interaction with the spirit.

Spirit Wave is described as magnifying one's own power, I think. A good soul will heal itself, a negative soul will engulf itself. IF Yusuke can unleash this technique on Palpatine, it may well win the fight, but he must survive and get the shot off. I've not seen him use it, so I can't comment on how fast it will be. Genkai unleashed it in a single gesture for each fighter against her in teh Dark Tourney.

Yusuke's primary advantage will be that he tends to get a second wind, and become far more powerful. He has the toughness to last that long(He's suffered from a mixture of supernatural energies and lightning before, in the form of the Storm Of Torment, and it's sevenfold cousin, Prism Storm Of Torment, and that attack kills normal people in one hit, much like FL.), but whether he can get the Wave off or actually acheive a telling blow is a hard call to make.

[Connor MacLeod]

A potential, though these would be powers instinctual since his return and developed, as he can survive similar crashes during the tournament set up like that(I just saw one of those episodes, where he goes flying a good 50(?) feet, bouncing repeatedly. Often on his skull.). This reactive TK will offer some defense against an instant Force Choke death.

Yes, it would, since the TK would have to prevent his head/neck snapping from the impact I think. But the question is just how much TK resistance could he generate, and is it stronger than the Emperor? I'm inclined to think not.

He knocked him out, and he fell down. There is momentum(First fight with Toguro Brothers, he propels Kurabara like a cannonshot), and some interaction(Same fight, chunks of the floor are ripped up by a particularly powerful shot). But it's effects on a living being are always more pronounced, so I chalk it up to partially interaction with the spirit.

On the other hand, it might not be a thermal effect at all, but more a TK like application of force (which might suggest in terms of the holes it makes, it fragments things.) Although to be fair, it could probably also generate energy if need be (superheating or accleerating molecules of air, for example.)

Again, it becomes a question of magnitude if such is the case. But even then, Palpy still has many more tricks up his sleeve (up to and including a Force storm, should it come to that.)

Spirit Wave is described as magnifying one's own power, I think. A good soul will heal itself, a negative soul will engulf itself. IF Yusuke can unleash this technique on Palpatine, it may well win the fight, but he must survive and get the shot off. I've not seen him use it, so I can't comment on how fast it will be. Genkai unleashed it in a single gesture for each fighter against her in teh Dark Tourney.

Again, this is an issue of magnitude.

Yusuke's primary advantage will be that he tends to get a second wind, and become far more powerful. He has the toughness to last that long(He's suffered from a mixture of supernatural energies and lightning before, in the form of the Storm Of Torment, and it's sevenfold cousin, Prism Storm Of Torment, and that attack kills normal people in one hit, much like FL.), but whether he can get the Wave off or actually acheive a telling blow is a hard call to make.

In some cases yeah. But he's also extended himself too far and nearly killed himself in the process at least once. This "second wind" bit is obviously indicative that whatever "store" of power he has is typically greater than what he uses (the second wind is just tapping more of his stored energy, I think.)

[SirNitram]

A potential, though these would be powers instinctual since his return and developed, as he can survive similar crashes during the tournament set up like that(I just saw one of those episodes, where he goes flying a good 50(?) feet, bouncing repeatedly. Often on his skull.). This reactive TK will offer some defense against an instant Force Choke death.

Yes, it would, since the TK would have to prevent his head/neck snapping from the impact I think. But the question is just how much TK resistance could he generate, and is it stronger than the Emperor? I'm inclined to think not.

Well, it will probably not be stronger than the Emperor's full power of TK, but one must realize that even a Master needs to stop and focus to acheive the full brunt. That gives Yusuke a chance to fire off a shot to at least distract Palpy and earn him some more oxygen.

He knocked him out, and he fell down. There is momentum(First fight with Toguro Brothers, he propels Kurabara like a cannonshot), and some interaction(Same fight, chunks of the floor are ripped up by a particularly powerful shot). But it's effects on a living being are always more pronounced, so I chalk it up to partially interaction with the spirit.

On the other hand, it might not be a thermal effect at all, but more a TK like application of force (which might suggest in terms of the holes it makes, it fragments things.) Although to be fair, it could probably also generate energy if need be (superheating or accleerating molecules of air, for example.)

Well, yes, we saw how the Spirit Wave Orb Gen Kai used caused massive increases in temperature.

Again, it becomes a question of magnitude if such is the case. But even then, Palpy still has many more tricks up his sleeve (up to and including a Force storm, should it come to that.)

Force Storm is, of course, the big showstopper, but how long does it take to invoke? As I recall, it's more involved than lightning.

Spirit Wave is described as magnifying one's own power, I think. A good soul will heal itself, a negative soul will engulf itself. IF Yusuke can unleash this technique on Palpatine, it may well win the fight, but he must survive and get the shot off. I've not seen him use it, so I can't comment on how fast it will be. Genkai unleashed it in a single gesture for each fighter against her in teh Dark Tourney.

Again, this is an issue of magnitude.

Yusuke's primary advantage will be that he tends to get a second wind, and become far more powerful. He has the toughness to last that long(He's suffered from a mixture of supernatural energies and lightning before, in the form of the Storm Of Torment, and it's sevenfold cousin, Prism Storm Of Torment, and that attack kills normal people in one hit, much like FL.), but whether he can get the Wave off or actually acheive a telling blow is a hard call to make.

In some cases yeah. But he's also extended himself too far and nearly killed himself in the process at least once. This "second wind" bit is obviously indicative that whatever "store" of power he has is typically greater than what he uses (the second wind is just tapping more of his stored energy, I think.)

Actually, given dialogue from Gen Kai about emotional focus, it's more than he gets really, really pissed about something and his energy skyrockets. His opponents generally don't detect any store of energy until it comes rushing in through his rage, so there's a small but not neglible chance Palpy might underestimate him.

My personal guess is that the battle has lots of early testing after the first shots fail to end it(Each side will be most surprised.. Yusuke, that a human can block his Spirit Gun, Palpatine, that a mere boy could shrug off a Force Choke), culminating with Spirit Wave and Force Storm, where it's a question of which fires first.

[SirNitram]

Another thought to consider is Palpy might try and recruit Yusuke. Kid's got a temper problem and an assload of power.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, it will probably not be stronger than the Emperor's full power of TK, but one must realize that even a Master needs to stop and focus to acheive the full brunt. That gives Yusuke a chance to fire off a shot to at least distract Palpy and earn him some more oxygen.

If the Emperor does nothing to distract Yusuke and assuming he doesnt need that long (the actual time needed seems to vary... might not be longer than a second - how long does it take Yusuke to attack?)

You have a point about distracting too, that might work.

Well, yes, we saw how the Spirit Wave Orb Gen Kai used caused massive increases in temperature.

How massive an increase?

Force Storm is, of course, the big showstopper, but how long does it take to invoke? As I recall, it's more involved than lightning.

It is. Most of the more high end powers are and can't be used close up (not that it would be smart to open up a huge vortex like that close up in combat anyhow), but I dont really see anything stopping Palpy from putting distance between himself and Yusuke before unleashing it (or something like it.) Unless Yusuke has a technique to keep him immobile that he could not physically overcome.

Normal Force lightning might also be nasty enough too, depending on how much of an output Palpy could muster (Adi Gallia I think could muster an output comparable to starfighter-scale weapons, if Jedi Starfighter is any indicator. That suggests mid/high GJ/low TJ range, at least)

Actually, given dialogue from Gen Kai about emotional focus, it's more than he gets really, really pissed about something and his energy skyrockets. His opponents generally don't detect any store of energy until it comes rushing in through his rage, so there's a small but not neglible chance Palpy might underestimate him.

It sounds more like he can't tap all of his power unless certain conditions are met (some sort of self-imposed belief limitation or some such - like a War Wizard's ability to use his magic only when he's pissed in the Goodkind novels.) The energy is "there", he just isn't able to reach for it except under certain circumstnaces (or he simply hasn't trained himself enough yet that he can do it.)

My personal guess is that the battle has lots of early testing after the first shots fail to end it(Each side will be most surprised.. Yusuke, that a human can block his Spirit Gun, Palpatine, that a mere boy could shrug off a Force Choke), culminating with Spirit Wave and Force Storm, where it's a question of which fires first.

How destructive is the Spirit Wave again, or are we not given any indication? Offhand, if we just took Cyran's 3.5 meter diameter hole estimate and assumed that the Spirit Wave could create a hole several times larger (lets say 10-20 meters in diameter) via fragmentation, we're well into the MJ/GJ range (tahts just a very rough estimate, though)

Of course, there might also be a chance if Yusuke can somehow use his abilities to disrupt Palpy's connection to the Force - not only would that nullify his powers (even temporarily), if he's doing something like a Force storm, there's a chance he could lose control and destroy himself (IE - loss of the Eclipse in Dark Empire.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Another thought to consider is Palpy might try and recruit Yusuke. Kid's got a temper problem and an assload of power.

And make Kuwabara an Admiral

[SirNitram]

Well, it will probably not be stronger than the Emperor's full power of TK, but one must realize that even a Master needs to stop and focus to acheive the full brunt. That gives Yusuke a chance to fire off a shot to at least distract Palpy and earn him some more oxygen.

If the Emperor does nothing to distract Yusuke and assuming he doesnt need that long (the actual time needed seems to vary... might not be longer than a second - how long does it take Yusuke to attack?)

You have a point about distracting too, that might work.

By the Dark Tournament, it's a point and blast thing; the only slowdown is a freezeframe for drama or when he's doing an especially lethal/large shot. Shotgun is similar, and would produce a better effect for distraction, you can't just move five feet and keep going.

Well, yes, we saw how the Spirit Wave Orb Gen Kai used caused massive increases in temperature.

How massive an increase?

No definately quantifier on hers, but Yusuke was, very literally, dying of internal heat. I'd peg it at five-ten degrees over the whole body from ingestion, not much, but more than most can take without medical care. He did this in a CAVE.

Force Storm is, of course, the big showstopper, but how long does it take to invoke? As I recall, it's more involved than lightning.

It is. Most of the more high end powers are and can't be used close up (not that it would be smart to open up a huge vortex like that close up in combat anyhow), but I dont really see anything stopping Palpy from putting distance between himself and Yusuke before unleashing it (or something like it.) Unless Yusuke has a technique to keep him immobile that he could not physically overcome.

None, but this becomes a question of if Palpy can flee without getting himself blasted.

Normal Force lightning might also be nasty enough too, depending on how much of an output Palpy could muster (Adi Gallia I think could muster an output comparable to starfighter-scale weapons, if Jedi Starfighter is any indicator. That suggests mid/high GJ/low TJ range, at least)

Palpatine's personal blasts were nonlethal in the immediate(Though they would doubtlessly have killed Luke if he had kept going), an excrutiatingly painful, just like Storm Of Torment was when Yusuke couldn't block a shot. I find the Jedi Starfighter reference to be highly questionable, by comparison. Can you be more specific?

Actually, given dialogue from Gen Kai about emotional focus, it's more than he gets really, really pissed about something and his energy skyrockets. His opponents generally don't detect any store of energy until it comes rushing in through his rage, so there's a small but not neglible chance Palpy might underestimate him.

It sounds more like he can't tap all of his power unless certain conditions are met (some sort of self-imposed belief limitation or some such - like a War Wizard's ability to use his magic only when he's pissed in the Goodkind novels.) The energy is "there", he just isn't able to reach for it except under certain circumstnaces (or he simply hasn't trained himself enough yet that he can do it.)

Quite possible.

My personal guess is that the battle has lots of early testing after the first shots fail to end it(Each side will be most surprised.. Yusuke, that a human can block his Spirit Gun, Palpatine, that a mere boy could shrug off a Force Choke), culminating with Spirit Wave and Force Storm, where it's a question of which fires first.

How destructive is the Spirit Wave again, or are we not given any indication? Offhand, if we just took Cyran's 3.5 meter diameter hole estimate and assumed that the Spirit Wave could create a hole several times larger (lets say 10-20 meters in diameter) via fragmentation, we're well into the MJ/GJ range (tahts just a very rough estimate, though)

Spirit Wave does not seem to inflict direct damage. It's a reaction based on intentions, and a 'good heart'. When used on the mind-controlled fighters, it fully healed them and freed them. It is said by Gen Kai, IIRC, it'll burn an evil-hearted person from within to ashes. It's secondary effect, in the form of the Orb, seems to be a serious upgrade in firepower/endurance.

Of course, there might also be a chance if Yusuke can somehow use his abilities to disrupt Palpy's connection to the Force - not only would that nullify his powers (even temporarily), if he's doing something like a Force storm, there's a chance he could lose control and destroy himself (IE - loss of the Eclipse in Dark Empire.)

It's suggested that those in the grasp of the Spirit Wave lose their powers, though whether we can extend this supposition to the Dark Side is questionable. He will lose concentration.

So, in the end, it's all about who gets the big shot off first.

[SirNitram]

Another thought to consider is Palpy might try and recruit Yusuke. Kid's got a temper problem and an assload of power.

And make Kuwabara an Admiral

I see Kuwabara more in a goofy Luke role, because he's quite devoted to his friend, and after all, he's got the Lightsaber already!

[Connor MacLeod]

By the Dark Tournament, it's a point and blast thing; the only slowdown is a freezeframe for drama or when he's doing an especially lethal/large shot. Shotgun is similar, and would produce a better effect for distraction, you can't just move five feet and keep going.

Force users have demonstrated some prodigious acceleration, however, and we can certainly assume that in a desperate situation they could call on it at least once. On top of that, we're still neglecting the potential of precognition (unless we're assuming for some reason precog *won't* Warn palpy at all or it will somehow be "beat" by Yusuke's reactions, but this strikes me as vaguely ridiculous unless for some reason Palpy delibereately isn't "in" the Force. If that were the case, he probably could not do a Force storm or anything "high end" either.)

No definately quantifier on hers, but Yusuke was, very literally, dying of internal heat. I'd peg it at five-ten degrees over the whole body from ingestion, not much, but more than most can take without medical care. He did this in a CAVE.

Enough to have cremated Yusuke had he not been able to withstand it?

None, but this becomes a question of if Palpy can flee without getting himself blasted.

He can still dodge, presumably, while moving back. We're talking about potential tens, hundreds, or thousands of gees remember, even if we assume Palpy is putting his full effort into it.

Palpatine's personal blasts were nonlethal in the immediate(Though they would doubtlessly have killed Luke if he had kept going), an excrutiatingly painful, just like Storm Of Torment was when Yusuke couldn't block a shot. I find the Jedi Starfighter reference to be highly questionable, by comparison. Can you be more specific?

Luke was a Jedi, and he was making a conscious effort to deflect the bolts (true, he was overwhelmed later, but that doesnt mean he stopped trying to handle them, either.) And I dont think we would neccesarily assume he WAS using full power to kill him either - otherwise we might as well assume he's incapable of Force Storms or snapping Luke's neck (since we would be assuming Palpy is using his full effort to kill Luke.

In Jedi Starfighter you are allowed access to employ several Force abilities to enhance your abilities in combat while piloting your ship. One of them is Force lightning, which allows you, when employed, to damage/destroy opposing targets (presumably, at least other starfighter-scale targets) Given the approximate outputs in starfighter combat, the Force lightning (to be effective as an anti-fighter weapon) would have to be capable of energy output within an order of magnitude of fighter weapons.

Spirit Wave does not seem to inflict direct damage. It's a reaction based on intentions, and a 'good heart'. When used on the mind-controlled fighters, it fully healed them and freed them. It is said by Gen Kai, IIRC, it'll burn an evil-hearted person from within to ashes. It's secondary effect, in the form of the Orb, seems to be a serious upgrade in firepower/endurance.

It might affect PAlpy. Given the whole " lightside/darkside" thing, he seems to be subjec to attacks that are targeted against "evil" - (IE the "wall of light" effects used by Luke and LEia against Palpy in DE - also the same thing those Jedi trainees used on Kun in the Jedi Academy trilogy.)

It's suggested that those in the grasp of the Spirit Wave lose their powers, though whether we can extend this supposition to the Dark Side is questionable. He will lose concentration.

So, in the end, it's all about who gets the big shot off first.

Probably.

[SirNitram]

By the Dark Tournament, it's a point and blast thing; the only slowdown is a freezeframe for drama or when he's doing an especially lethal/large shot. Shotgun is similar, and would produce a better effect for distraction, you can't just move five feet and keep going.

Force users have demonstrated some prodigious acceleration, however, and we can certainly assume that in a desperate situation they could call on it at least once. On top of that, we're still neglecting the potential of precognition (unless we're assuming for some reason precog *won't* Warn palpy at all or it will somehow be "beat" by Yusuke's reactions, but this strikes me as vaguely ridiculous unless for some reason Palpy delibereately isn't "in" the Force. If that were the case, he probably could not do a Force storm or anything "high end" either.)

Since the goal in such a maneuver is simply to get Palpy to lessen his grip so he can dodge an attack, foresight actually helps Yusuke; as soon as he starts thinking about it, Palpatine will start reacting, probably by trying to erect a defense. This keeps the battle from moving to the high-end attacks until one or both is more exhausted.

No definately quantifier on hers, but Yusuke was, very literally, dying of internal heat. I'd peg it at five-ten degrees over the whole body from ingestion, not much, but more than most can take without medical care. He did this in a CAVE.

Enough to have cremated Yusuke had he not been able to withstand it?

Such is heavily implied but never explicitly stated.

None, but this becomes a question of if Palpy can flee without getting himself blasted.

He can still dodge, presumably, while moving back. We're talking about potential tens, hundreds, or thousands of gees remember, even if we assume Palpy is putting his full effort into it.

Given the RPG fluff I've read, it's implied Force speed is a straight line, which isn't contradicted by the bursts of it seen in the films. That would limit dodging. But it seems that running like a scared bitch might be his best option, if he doesn't fall prey to Dark Side Arrogance.

Palpatine's personal blasts were nonlethal in the immediate(Though they would doubtlessly have killed Luke if he had kept going), an excrutiatingly painful, just like Storm Of Torment was when Yusuke couldn't block a shot. I find the Jedi Starfighter reference to be highly questionable, by comparison. Can you be more specific?

Luke was a Jedi, and he was making a conscious effort to deflect the bolts (true, he was overwhelmed later, but that doesnt mean he stopped trying to handle them, either.) And I dont think we would neccesarily assume he WAS using full power to kill him either - otherwise we might as well assume he's incapable of Force Storms or snapping Luke's neck (since we would be assuming Palpy is using his full effort to kill Luke.

I agree totally, and it provides a notable parallel: Force Lightning is usually lethal, just like the Storm, but in sufficiently strong individuals, they survived repeated hits with incredible pain.

In Jedi Starfighter you are allowed access to employ several Force abilities to enhance your abilities in combat while piloting your ship. One of them is Force lightning, which allows you, when employed, to damage/destroy opposing targets (presumably, at least other starfighter-scale targets) Given the approximate outputs in starfighter combat, the Force lightning (to be effective as an anti-fighter weapon) would have to be capable of energy output within an order of magnitude of fighter weapons.

Gameplay in a starfighter game is probably about the least reliable thing around, so I'm gonna have to simply blink.

Spirit Wave does not seem to inflict direct damage. It's a reaction based on intentions, and a 'good heart'. When used on the mind-controlled fighters, it fully healed them and freed them. It is said by Gen Kai, IIRC, it'll burn an evil-hearted person from within to ashes. It's secondary effect, in the form of the Orb, seems to be a serious upgrade in firepower/endurance.

It might affect PAlpy. Given the whole " lightside/darkside" thing, he seems to be subjec to attacks that are targeted against "evil" - (IE the "wall of light" effects used by Luke and LEia against Palpy in DE - also the same thing those Jedi trainees used on Kun in the Jedi Academy trilogy.)

Quite; it'd be hard to find a better example of a cruel heart than a Lord Of The Sith.

It's suggested that those in the grasp of the Spirit Wave lose their powers, though whether we can extend this supposition to the Dark Side is questionable. He will lose concentration.

So, in the end, it's all about who gets the big shot off first.

Probably.

[Darth Yoshi]

Spirit Wave takes a fair amount of time to pull off. I believe Genkai had to do a chant in order use the attack against the Ichigaki team, although it could have been for the immobilization field which might have been a separate attack.

Yusuke can only fire 8 Spirit Gun blasts in any given day.

As for speed, IIRC Yusuke and Hiei sparred before setting off for the Dark Tournament, and they were about evenly matched. In their first fight, Hiei was able to attack Yusuke from multiple directions all within a few seconds. I assume that they both improved their skills after 3 months training for the Dark Tournament. Not sure how that measures against Palpatine, though.