The Glory that is Tsunami

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-08-28 05:31pm

Just how powerful is Jurai, militarily. IIRC, their territory is smaller then the SW Galactic Empire.

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-28 08:34pm

Just how powerful is Jurai, militarily. IIRC, their territory is smaller then the SW Galactic Empire.

Well, in the Bizen issue (vol. 6) of the manga, I counted about sixty third-generation cruisers with the queen's flagship on page 122. And that was just the view from one side of the Bizen, the fleet completely surrounded it. Assuming the queens went for a relatively equal distribution of ships for surrounding Bizen, that works out to one hundred twenty to one hundred eighty ships, depending on whether we were seeing from half of the Bizen's POV or a third. Either way, Funahoe said she'd brought the "entire battalion", whatever that means. We can safely assume that it was a large portion of their fleet, at least. Jurai ships are powerful, as Washuu (my fave character, BTW

) said in OVA 13, but can't be mass produced. They have to be grown, over a period of several years at least.

Jurai's stated (in the Tenchi the Movie 2 DVD encyclopedia) as having a huge amount of territory in the Galactic Union, and a huge amount of resources, but few stars, so it's conceivable they've got a small number of uber-rich solar systems and hold the region between, say, two galactic arms. They also seem to provide a large amount of funding for the Galaxy Police (presumably so they don't have to tie up many of their own ships patrolling their territory). However, we simply don't know just how large the Jurai Empire really is. It's expressed as the super power of the galaxy, though we don't know how much territory this entails.

One thing's for certain, though: Given that they have the support of a divine entity (Tsunami, herself) Jurai probably rates pretty high on the civilization scale, if just for that.

[/quote]

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-28 08:49pm

They did mention going through some electromagnetic field.

Remember, the makers of the DS never expected the station to be attacked by a mere fighter squadron. Also, it was mentioned somewhere that there were two kinds of shields, one that blocked physical objects and one that blocked energy. The one on the DS could simply have been the one that blocked energy (incoming weaponfire, for you nitpickers).

Where was it mentioned? I didn't pick it up in the film, or recall reading it in the novel. Then again, it's been a while since I've seen the movie or read the book.

The EM field the squad passed through WAS probably the anti-energy shield. Projected outward so as to keep capital ships at a safe distance from the hull. However, I have a hard time imagining something like that hindering Tsunami at all, if the X-Wings got through without trouble.

Also, since the X-Wings had to close to a pretty short distance for their attacks, and Tsunami appears to have a greater weapon's range (the X-wings held their fire toward the surface of the DS until they were within a hundred kilometers, at least. Tsunami was hitting Souja from nearly five times that distance) it seems that, Tsunami could cut through the energy-blocking shield, stay out of range of the surface turbolasers (though given her shields, I doubt they'd make much of a difference), and start blasting the DS like nobody's business.

I still like the idea of blowing through the superlaser assembly with the LHWs set to weapon's mode, especially if it was a completed DS2. If Tsunami couldn't squeeze her shot off fast enough, she could immediately switch her wings back to defensive mode. She IS the ship, after all.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-28 08:50pm

You can't use the manga, since it's not regarded as being offical.

TM! obviously possesses intergalactic travel in the two main continuities, and in one of my fansubs of GXP (OVA continuity), the Galaxy Police's jurisdiction alone is stated as something like at least 2/3 of the Universe (but take that with a grain of salt, since it's still a fansub).

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-28 08:53pm

Red and Gold Wings were passing through the magnetosphere, which would protect DSI from radiation like cosmic rays.

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-28 08:54pm

You can't use the manga, since it's not regarded as being offical.

How? It's written by the same guy, isn't it?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-28 08:57pm

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote:
You can't use the manga, since it's not regarded as being offical.
How? It's written by the same guy, isn't it?

You mean Masaki Kajishima? Shit no. It's just some other guy doing it. Most TM! fans don't consider the manga to be part of the main continuities.

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-28 09:02pm

You mean Masaki Kajishima? Shit no. It's just some other guy doing it. Most TM! fans don't consider the manga to be part of the main continuities.

Nuts. Thanks for telling me, but there goes the Jurai fleet numbers (sigh).

Still... Perhaps some useful information can be derived from GXP. Tenchi in Space won't be very useful, as there's no Tsunami in it that we know of.
You have anything from GXP?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-28 09:07pm

I'm assuming that with "Tenchi in Space", you mean Tenchi Muyo! TV (aka Tenchi Universe).

I have fansubs up to Ep 13 or so, but the subs turned to HK bootleg level quality around 9-10 or so. Also, they're on Utsanomiko's computer in CR right now.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-08-28 09:10pm

Setzer wrote:Just how powerful is Jurai, militarily. IIRC, their territory is smaller then the SW Galactic Empire.

I don't know about territory size, though they are considered the number one power in the known universe, though that may not really mean much.

Also I recall Jurai having some kind of shield that encloses their ENTIRE territory.

Anyway, in the general sense, we don't have that much to go on in determining naval strength. And I haven't watched GXP either.

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-28 09:13pm

If they're an intergalactic power, they already outstrip the Empire in territorial size, at least. Anyone know where we can download eps of GXP?

And besides, any power that can cast a shield around their ENTIRE territory is someone I doubt the Empire wants to mess with. Or should.

Not unless they'd like to be blown to the Stone Age.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-28 09:15pm

If this sheild comes from the manga, forget about it existing...

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-28 09:16pm

Hey, cool! I've got stars! ^_^ Er... When do I get promoted from Youngling, if I may ask?

In ref. to preivous statement, I meant that, since they have practical intergalactic transportation (taking days or weeks, instead of years), they already outstrip the Empire in that respect. Besides, more ground you can cover, generally, the more territory you can possess.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-28 09:18pm

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote:Hey, cool! I've got stars! ^_^ Er... When do I get promoted from Youngling, if I may ask?

Five hundred posts.

In ref. to preivous statement, I meant that, since they have practical intergalactic transportation (taking days or weeks, instead of years), they already outstrip the Empire in that respect. Besides, more ground you can cover, generally, the more territory you can possess.

More territory you can possess, not how much territory you automatically possess. The Empire Of Netheril's spelljammers could hop to other galaxies, but they never built a space empire outside their own system. The Empire, on the other hand, never left their own galaxy, but had over fifty million planets.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-28 09:22pm

GXP has already been lisenced, so you can't technically DL them anymore...

Right now I can only remember a few things here and there, but one is that it's explicitly explained that Jurai ship interiors occupy subspace outside of regular space, which allows for their ships to be bigger on the inside.

Yup, the Jurai have the basics of TARDIS technology (minus time/space travel, of course).

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-08-28 09:28pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:GXP has already been lisenced, so you can't technically DL them anymore...

Right now I can only remember a few things here and there, but one is that it's explicitly explained that Jurai ship interiors occupy subspace outside of regular space, which allows for their ships to be bigger on the inside.

Yup, the Jurai have the basics of TARDIS technology (minus time/space travel, of course).

And the Galactic Union has colonies the size of the solar system.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-08-28 09:49pm

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote:How? It's written by the same guy, isn't it?

I believe the Tenchi manga is by a woman.

Have we ever seen ship Lighthawk Wings used in an offensive manner? For some reason, I can only remember Tenchi as the only example of Lighthawk Wing as an offensive weapon.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-28 10:37pm

Ayeka instructed Tenchi how to activate and then use Ryu-Oh's Lighthawk Wings as a weapon against the Shouja in that one OVA episode.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-28 10:38pm

Shit, I realise that's what you actually said...

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-29 12:22pm

Quote:
In ref. to preivous statement, I meant that, since they have practical intergalactic transportation (taking days or weeks, instead of years), they already outstrip the Empire in that respect. Besides, more ground you can cover, generally, the more territory you can possess.

More territory you can possess, not how much territory you automatically possess. The Empire Of Netheril's spelljammers could hop to other galaxies, but they never built a space empire outside their own system. The Empire, on the other hand, never left their own galaxy, but had over fifty million planets.

True. My statement was ill-thought out.

Hm... Since we can't get any practical data on the Jurai navy's size, we'll have to focus on ship-to-ship combat.

Tsunami's guns apparently popped out of subspace, judging that the portals they emerged from were nearly identical to the one Washuu used to retrieve Mihoshi's ship in OVA 8. This seems to fit with their ability to expand the size of their ships with subspace, as Spanky said. Thus, Tsunami carries her weapons with her in subspace. Not only does this make it so the cannons can't be destroyed (at least, not very easily), but Tsunami's payload (as in how many guns she has) could very well be infinite, for all practical purposes.

I was rewatching the OVA 6 thanks to my friend's DVD, and tried to count how many shots Tsunami sqeezed off in a second. I counted roughly fifteen blasts from her guns in one second. This gives her a firing rate of about 900 shots/minute, if she goes for continuous fire.

I'm not sure about a Star Destroyer's firing rate. In the novel about the fake Thrawn returning (I forget it's title, sorry), the Chimera[*i] fired about five hundred shots in a couple minutes during the first chapter, for the cloaking field/predictor test. But, as that's the EU...

Still, added with her firing-while-cloaked capability, I believe Tsunami could easily overwhelm an ISD.

The weapon's blasts, as compared to Imperial turbolaser blasts, also looked significantly more powerful (larger, pure white), but since we don't know what kind of cannons she uses, her firepower levels are difficult to compute, to say the least.

The Prime Necromancer · Post by **The Prime Necromancer** » 2003-08-29 01:27pm

The Drunkard Kid wrote:Oh, and AFAIK, as long as even one wing is left in defense mode, it projects an impenetrable force field around the entire ship. IIRC, when Tsunami blocked the attack from the Souja (which I'm pretty certain was stated to be strong enough to destroy the Earth), the beam seemed to splash a short distance away from the hull, even when none of the 20 LHW's moved to try and stop it.

I'd like to know where this comes from. Because it seems utterly impossible to me. Not in a scientific sense (it is that, but that doesn't bother me) but in a story sense. If the Jurai has a large number of ships that are capable both defeating any foe and stopping any attack, how the hell are they threatened by *anything*? I mean, Ryoko and Ryo-Ohki attacked the planet and did some damage, did the Jurai not have even *one* of these invincible, all-destroying ships in orbit?

Moreover, when Ryuoh uses its lighthawk wings against Kagato's blasts, why do the wings actually move to intercept each blast? Shouldn't there merely be a field around the ship? And if just one wing forms an impregnable defense, and one more an irresistible attack, why is it neccessary or so great to have more than two? And where do you get the info that the wings can do either of those things in the first place?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Tenchi fan. It was the first uncut anime that I ever watched, and it will forever hold a special place in my heart. But I just don't understand where all this background info comes from. I'd appreciate it if someone could enlighten me.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-08-29 01:59pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:If this sheild comes from the manga, forget about it existing...

I've read the entire manga and the shield isn't from the manga.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-08-30 12:16am

The Drunkard Kid wrote:Oh, and AFAIK, as long as even one wing is left in defense mode, it projects an impenetrable force field around the entire ship. IIRC, when Tsunami blocked the attack from the Souja (which I'm pretty certain was stated to be strong enough to destroy the Earth), the beam seemed to splash a short distance away from the hull, even when none of the 20 LHW's moved to try and stop it.

Ignoring the fact that Tsunami intercepted the beam head-on and all her shields (wings) were arrayed along her forward arc to begin with. And that the three wings from Ayeka's vessel rotated to intercept Souja's fire. And they seemed to rotate in such a manner that a different LHW was presented to the incoming fire each time, which suggests that they aren't the invincible all-defeating shields some have suggested they are.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-08-30 12:25am

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote:
Quote:
In ref. to preivous statement, I meant that, since they have practical intergalactic transportation (taking days or weeks, instead of years), they already outstrip the Empire in that respect. Besides, more ground you can cover, generally, the more territory you can possess.

More territory you can possess, not how much territory you automatically possess. The Empire Of Netheril's spelljammers could hop to other galaxies, but they never built a space empire outside their own system. The Empire, on the other hand, never left their own galaxy, but had over fifty million planets.
True. My statement was ill-thought out.

Hm... Since we can't get any practical data on the Jurai navy's size, we'll have to focus on ship-to-ship combat.

Tsunami's guns apparently popped out of subspace, judging that the portals they emerged from were nearly identical to the one Washuu used to retrieve Mihoshi's ship in OVA 8. This seems to fit with their ability to expand the size of their ships with subspace, as Spanky said. Thus, Tsunami carries her weapons with her in subspace. Not only does this make it so the cannons can't be destroyed (at least, not very easily), but Tsunami's payload (as in how many guns she has) could very well be infinite, for all practical purposes.

I was rewatching the OVA 6 thanks to my friend's DVD, and tried to count how many shots Tsunami sqeezed off in a second. I counted roughly fifteen blasts from her guns in one second. This gives her a firing rate of about 900 shots/minute, if she goes for continuous fire.

I'm not sure about a Star Destroyer's firing rate. In the novel about the fake Thrawn returning (I forget it's title, sorry), the Chimera[*i] fired about five hundred shots in a couple minutes during the first chapter, for the cloaking field/predictor test. But, as that's the EU...

Still, added with her firing-while-cloaked capability, I believe Tsunami could easily overwhelm an ISD.

The weapon's blasts, as compared to Imperial turbolaser blasts, also looked significantly more powerful (larger, pure white), but since we don't know what kind of cannons she uses, her firepower levels are difficult to compute, to say the least.

It's difficult to say how potent Tsunami's blasts were, because we don't know if

A:) If Souja had an operational shield system. This would make Tsunami's blasts significantly more potent, as they are powerful enough to easily breach the theoretical shields and inflict damage Souja's hull.

B:) The thermodynamic properties of Souja's armor/hull. If it's a neutronium hull like that found aboard an ISD, then the ISD is fucked three ways from Sunday. It it's a puny hull with subspace structural integrity fields a'la Jurai's ships (in the TM! box set encyclopedia, it's said Jurai's ships are crafted from wood, which is reinforced with force-fields, making their ships eerily similar to those of Star Trek,) then Tsunami's blasts are relatively weak, which means that she's toast if she has to take on more than a single ISD. If she's taking on one ISD, then it could be a draw, since the ISD could pour heavy turbolaser fire at Tsunami's LHWs for the next week and not overwhelm them.

The Drunkard Kid · Post by **The Drunkard Kid** » 2003-09-15 02:09pm

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
The Drunkard Kid wrote:Oh, and AFAIK, as long as even one wing is left in defense mode, it projects an impenetrable force field around the entire ship. IIRC, when Tsunami blocked the attack from the Souja (which I'm pretty certain was stated to be strong enough to destroy the Earth), the beam seemed to splash a short distance away from the hull, even when none of the 20 LHW's moved to try and stop it.
Ignoring the fact that Tsunami intercepted the beam head-on and all her shields (wings) were arrayed along her forward arc to begin with. And that the three wings from Ayeka's vessel rotated to intercept Souja's fire. And they seemed to rotate in such a manner that a different LHW was presented to the incoming fire each time, which suggests that they aren't the invincible all-defeating shields some have suggested they are.

That's what the "IIRC" was there for. I haven't watched it in awhile, but I don't remember Tsunami's LHW's moving to intercept (wheras the Ryuuoh's definitely did). OTOH, The Ryuuoh isn't the descended form of an insanely powerful (though currently limited, from what I understand) Goddess, so I can accept the latter being able to do stuff that the former can't.